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Midwich & Saloon will Be Changed at Any Point? Your Thoughts?
So now devs confirmed they are open for rebalancing maps if they favor one side so much.
This is good, i support this.
But i am just curious will we ever get changes for Midwich and Saloon?
Both of maps are so small which means easy to patrol for killers.
Both of maps have terrible loops. Midwich has 2 - 3 god pallets and that's all. Saloon has strong main build but rest of map is full with terrible pallets.
Both of these maps needs some nerf for make them a bit balanced for survivors. Midwich had highest killrate when they shared data last time. I don't think Saloon is different as well.
Comments
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Saloon can add a gym at the hanger area. Midwich I dont really know, few classrooms are empty, may guarantee 1 pallet in each class?
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I dislike some of the MacMIllan maps because killers can watch both gates at once. Doesn’t seem balanced either.
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I am sure that BHVR will somehow make those maps even more killer sided than they already are if they do touch them. Their map balance team isn’t trustworthy imo. I don’t even know why they’re reworking Rancid Abittoir, it’s one of the most balanced maps currently.
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I don't really think Midwich needs many changes, just something to make camping both exits harder and the removal of classrooms that don't have a single pallet in them. Dead Dawg on the other hand definitely needs a bit more looking at.
Tiles need reworked so that there aren't 5,000 breakable walls on the map, and therefore should be reduced in size to compensate, they also need to change the ridiculous amount of dead zones the map can have as well.
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There’s only one good tile on Midwich. Lol. Literally
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Midwich is a map that rewards chaining tiles with one another, if you know the general layout of the map, you can usually have a rather decent chase. That being said, I forgot that it can be rather difficult to find gens on Midwich, which is another thing that the devs should probably look at improving.
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Saloon pallets needs to be looked as well. All of them are very easy to counter by killer, at least some of them should be strong for survivors as well which will force to killer break them.
Midwich has highest kill-rate. I don't know how you are believing this map don't need changes. It's so easy to 3 gen on this map. Loops are terrible bad. Small map. Gates are always so close each other which makes even end game favor to killer. Midwich definitely deserves some buffs for survivors to make it viable for both sides.
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There aren’t any tiles to chain there. That’s the point. The classrooms don’t link—except one. And that’s the only good tile but it can be countered by a breakable door.
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I do not think midwich is that killer sided. you can hold-w extremely effectively on the hallways and waste the vast majority of killer's time. Haste perks are really broken on midwich.
If you run blood pact+power of two, you can move at 112% for entire game by hold-w in hallways. the killer will take forever to catch-up. If you use made for this, you can move 115% m/s which creates an infinity if you are ahead of the killer and outside of the chase for a lot of the killer cast.
The pallets in midwich are primarily unsafe meaning it takes a lot of skill as survivor to loop them. I do not think midwich is killer sided. I think it has poor escape rate because it has high-skill floor for survivor to do well on it. I personally dislike playing on midwich as killer against competent survivor's.
I have little opinion about Saloon. it is good challenge map to escape as survivor but in practice the map is unfair if every killer power was really strong and the player playing killer is good at playing killer. Most of killer powers are not that strong so it is possible to escape the average killer. The 3 gen is really strong on the map and I am not sure what to think of 3 gen gameplay.
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Do people really not like Midwich?
It's one of my favorite survivor maps and is like RPD where it's really strong if you know the layout but is auto lose vs certain Killers.
The tiles just take a bit more finesse to run. I don't think it needs changes. If anything hook spawns should just be fixed and Red Room door needs a sight blocker.
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Saloon is an overrated "killer sided" map cause in most cases the only killers that do well are killers that can already do well on larger maps. M1's still suffer on it because main building being accessible from basically any point from the map if you run at the first hint of a TR.
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Of all the maps that need changes (and there are a ton), both those maps are a couple of the good ones that are overall fine.
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If that's true, how killers are performing well on this map?
It's on killer anyway. If killer give up with main building gen and defend other areas, it's really not hard to win. Even for Trapper.
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Last I saw them, Midwich was fine and Saloon was my least favorite map in the entire game.
They were not on the chopping block, then. I doubt they are now.
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as long as they dont stop my ability to fly off the main building on dead dawg as demo! its been a very popular party trick that survivors like to talk with me about during post game. its the little things that make really cool bonding experiences!
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They need to look into the Yamaoka realm, Coal Tower and Ironworks. Ironworks seems to have the same problem Suffocation did.
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i'm curious... what's going on with ironworks?
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2 or 3 god pallets? There’s one decent pallet on the whole damn map and it’s on the 1st floor, by the stairwell going up.
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Nah there 3 god loops if you can use it. 2 pallets in garden next to each other pretty decent if you know how to use them. And 2 of them in first floor.
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Midwich needs changes fr, but I think saloon is fine outside of the 3gen setups.
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I wish I could provide screenshots right now but the area in front of main building...the tiles and trees are lined up so it's clear LOS from killer shack all the way down to the other side. The area around the giant log pile and killer shack is mostly a giant dead zone with maybe 1 pallet. I just don't think it's a great map for Ghostface specifically.
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Those realms don't need a change as much as others. Like swamp.
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Because the average skill of the player base is astronomically bad?
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Do we really want The Game 2.0?
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Based on the comments in this thread
I think we should leave the map balance changes to BHVR.
Compared to other maps like Garden of joy, both swamps, and even some Macmillan maps, Midwich and the saloon are masterpieces comparable to the Mona Lisa.
They don't need changes.
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The one change I'd like to see to saloon myself is to put a guranteed gen spawn near the outhouse at the back of main and adjust the gen spawning in the corner by gallows so only 1 will spawn in that corner so there isn't a mean 3 gen at the gallows every single time.
Like if you see a killer playing this offering you know there's a high probability you're about to play against the type of person that would rather just wait for your team to get bored and just give up than actually play the game
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I think Midwich could do with the RPD treatment:
Widen the corridors just enough to squeeze in the odd pallet loop. This will naturally make the map bigger. With a bigger map over all, you can block off portions of the upstairs, and create two variants, one with the Library area closed off and one with the Bathrooms area closed off. This will ultimately map the map less claustrophobic, and less effective for killers like Doctor, Nurse and Dredge who basically can't lose on this map.
I don't personally think Saloon needs any changes, it's one of the more balanced maps already.
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Midwitch is #1 best nurse map, because it's super small and everything is close together. Sure, it's not true for M1 killers or survivors, because there are very few openings between floors and to get from point A to B. The map should be more open and be larger - perhaps create new courtyards in direction of both exit gates?
As for saloon - 3gen is the biggest problem. Fix at least this, and the map is immediately less painful. Maybe adding a loop and a few pallets would make it more fair too. If devs are feeling fancy, maybe make it a little longer (so that main is in center), but be careful of not overdoing it. The map does not need much more size.
But definitely do something about both of those maps
Edit: mostly typos
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Oh yeah, everything is player's fault.
Nurse is so strong in chase. Get good baby survivor.
Blight add-ons are op. Get good baby survivor.
Spirit has some problematic add-ons. Do you know? Get good baby survivor.
So from now, we should not change anything in game.
Is Trapper performing so bad? Get good baby Trapper.
Are some maps favors survivor? Get good baby killer.
Can you see how bad your argument? I hope so.
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Saloon is fine because it's very RNG. Sometimes it goes survior sides and other its killers. It just depends on the window tiles in the building.
For Midwitch, I would open up the ramp near the bathrooms so there's less of a dead zone on the NW side of the map. It just gives more counter play to survivors, and you can't get trapped in the bathrooms anymore. I would also add a jugle gym to the center of the courtyard, and then remove one of the god pallets in the corner to compensate. OR just add just make these variables as how the map can spawn. There's too many straight hallways.
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It's funny to me how some people say that Midwich isn't killer sided. The two exit gates being in a literal line with no obstacles inbetween is already the biggest joke of this map.
Besides that, I know some killers have a harder time than others but at the same time you have enough killers that literally counter the ONLY obstacle this map has to offer being its split level. Nurse can ignore it completely, Dredge and Sadako can just teleport between the floors which is just obnoxious, Demogorgon has an easy time traversing between both levels if nobody closes his portals. Pair this with a high mobility killer like Wesker who can cut you off in the tight corridors or a huntress that will have an easy time throwing hatchets at you down the empty corridor because they are so god damn long and there is like nothing to hide behind.
It doesn't help either that this map only has one decent loop which has a breakable wall next to it. It's just way too small for what it is. And half of the rooms don't even have a pallet or a LoS breaker and thus are completely worthless.
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Dead dawg needs its 1 million breakable walls to be cut a lot before changes like that happen.
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I said the average skill of a player is bad. Spreading out still works extremely well against most of the killer roster on dead dawg, and if they leave a gen in main as one of the final gens its just free because chases take so long at main when played right.
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You are acting like killer can't defend gens of outside main building.
They just can ignore main building and defend only outside. I don't even remember to lose on this map. But probably survivors were unskilled, map is alright (?) .
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There is countless far worse maps, they definitely shouldn't waste time on playable maps.
midwich isn't even that great on common killers, it's just merchant and nurse and blight which is no way map issue.
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Midwich is sorta fine except the exits spawning in the same exact place every time. There needs to be alternate exit spawns so they're not right across from each other.
Saloon needs to be a bit bigger with less dead zones and empty areas and more hiding places (nothing too crazy though).
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Why doesn't it surprise me that most killer-sided map by huge margin "is fine" and "there is countless far worse maps". Go figures
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I still get sent to saloon a lot by SWFs. They like to hang out on the saloon gen, or the gallow gen, and relay my location to the rest of the team. And the saloon gen overlooks the entire middle of the map, so unless I want to go all the around the outside of the map, the SWF knows everywhere I go.
The main building is also a favorite for coordinated SWF head on plays, because there's often not enough room to avoid the lockers. And boil over / flip flop SWFs like to purposely get knocked down in the saloon's top floor side room, where it's near impossible to hook the survivor if the SWF is waiting by the hooks. Because of flip flop, it's not possible to chase the survivors away from the hooks, so it's just lose/lose for the killer.
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But let me guess. Most if not all of those games end in 4K anyway, because nobody is doing gens
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Yes you can bully killer if you have strong SWF on this map. Main building strong enough. But these SWF teams are usually dying because their goal is not to win game. They are just making you content and ignoring gens.
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They aren't all ignoring gens though. They can still have 1 or 2 survivors working on gens, because the saloon survivors can use their voice comms to warn the gen survivors if the killer actually leaves the saloon. And because there is so much open space on this map, if a survivor does get knocked down outside of saloon, then get ready for the flashlights, because there certainly won't be any walls for the killer to look at when they pick up the survivor.
There's also the issue where "players should have fun" is a very one sided concept on these forums. If camping and 3 gens are unfun for survivors, then we "need" to fix them. But if bully SWFs are literally spending the entire game trying to make the killer's game unfun.... then that's ok? Why it is considered acceptable for survivors to literally spend the entire game trying to make the killer miserable, just for the sake of ruining the killer's fun? This is on a completely different level than camping and tunneling, because those just are good game strategies that survivors don't like, which means the killer is playing to win, instead of purposely going out of their way to bully the survivors.
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So Saloon has problematic main building and problematic map size and weak spots. And strong 3 gens if killer camp gens.
All of these issues need to be addressed but yet some people are happy with this map. So maybe even strong SWFs are not problem for killers since they are winning most of games on this map.
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When a surv pops a gen that they worked on at least 70% on (alone) they see the aura of the closest two gens to them that do not have at least half progress. And when the killer hooks a surv for the first time they see the aura of the gen with the most progress (say at least half way repaired) and it explodes and regresses.
I don't think either effect should be perks either, just gameplay.
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You can defend other gens yes but with how efficient survivors can be and should be used when saying some map is "x sided" just doesn't work as an argument because it will always boil down to how efficient the survivors are. Sure you can TRY and apply pressure to multiple gens but with each chase usually leading to a corner of the map you make the killer walk for a really long time.
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The gen placement problem needs to be fixed on both sides. There shouldn't be 3 gens that are super close together, but there also shouldn't be gens that are so safe for survivors (e.g. saloon gen), or gens that are so far away that the killer feels like it's a waste of time to defend them.
There also needs to be a limit on what is considered a 3 gen. Yes, sometimes 3 gens are too close..... but sometimes it feels like the 3 gen definition is "if a killer can defend 3 gens at all, then it's a 3 gen, because survivors deserve at least 1 gen that's so far away that it's impossible for a killer to defend the 3 gens"
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