Every killer player after 4 MFT match be like:

I can say that about any perk or killer that was nerfed.

It was possible to beat old Nurse, because most of them are not good at Nurse....

It was possible to cleanse old Undying and win against it... Was it balanced? Hell no, but it was possible to win against it.

well that is logic in games right? its called win-rate. most games have targeted win-rate 50%. dbd has targetted win-rate of 60% on killer i.e you are expected to win with 3k or 4k 60% of the time and it has targeted win-rate for survivor where survivor must have at least 4 survivor escaping, 3 survivors escaping or 2 survivors escaping through exit gate at 40% ratio. so in principal, MFT might be balanced. it probably is balanced because strong killer exist but it could imbalanced vs x killer that are weak. more people play strong killers then they play weak killers. you get the picture.

well that is why they changed eruption, right? they saw killer was using eruption a lot and whenever the eruption perk was used, the killer would have higher win-rate ratio then when he was not using the perk. this makes sense because... well most games are soloq games and eruption was strong vs soloq therefore perk got nerfed.

it had low pick-rate because... the killer seeing your aura was significant drawback to the perk. Like old OoO is better then any tracking perk on killer. Like if you gave this perk to killer. some killer players might equip the perk. the average matches are soloq matches so of course the perk had low escape rate. SWF is minority of games and then there is even less good swf vs bad swf's. I have no clue what escape rate for good swf using OoO was but it was likely positive win-rate. in my opinion, OoO was imbalanced but only specific maps where aura reading could be exploited to hold shift-w. Old gas heaven was an example of that. there used to be those huge debree piles where you could run in circles endlessly with aura reading. Another classic example is midwich elementary school where people would stand at 1 end of hallway with wallhacks and you as killer would need to go all the around for like 10+ minutes to catch-up to a survivor running in a circle.

statistic cannot not catch OoO imbalance because it is so specific that it does not occur in the average game. that is why statistics don't mean everything and you really need analysis gameplay to see an issue with something like that.

Pulsar could be right. MFT might not be oppressive because average killer is strong enough to not have troubles with it. Does blight really care that you move 3% faster? Likely not really. Can it make him lose? It can but likely not enough for it to be game-breaking therefore balanced. Then take Otz sadako clip. Is sadako on average strong enough to beat MFT? I don't know. Perhaps vs Sadako, Sadako loses more when playing vs MFT. So sadako/x killer might need buffs. In the end, what is balance and what is not balanced is relative.

It had low pick rate, because SWF needed only one per team. Same as CoH.

It had low escape rate, because as soon killer noticed OoO, they went full tunnel.

But that perk was still super broken. Low escape rate, low pick rate and still one of most annoying perks.

MFT is not an issue for top tier killers, because of their mobility. That's why they are top tier killers.

But it's really good against average M1 killers.

Then you have few killers where it is actually broken.

If your advice is not play those killers, then I can't be bothered to explain more how bad this is.

If killer loses more against a perk you want to buff killer instead? It doesn't make any sense, because not everyone wants to use that perk. That's just creating more issues. Some of those killers who struggle against MFT needs buff, but most of them would be absolutely fine without this single perk existing.

I am looking forward trail of torment for sure, but you are not really stealth killer, because of it.

Everyone can see, you went stealth and where was your last position. It's also highly map dependant.

Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly. Was that perk good? Yeah, but nowhere near as good as against soloQ. Effectiveness of Eruption SWF vs soloQ is not even close.

Same goes for MFT. It is still good against Wesker, or Blight and can save you for sure. It's just not insane perk.

But if you play against Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag, then it gets into broken state.

It's not really about low skill as Huntress, Trickster, Deathslinger. There are loops where you can't use your power. Mainly rock loops, you have to either drop chase or force it for pallet drop. MFT makes this so much worse.

mft is op because otz only got a 3k vs a 4 mft team is a weird hill to die on lmao

And all I am saying those arguments have many flaws.

MFT is nowhere near fine level.

Of course I know it was broken. I was playing during that time and it was hell to deal with it and I know what devs said about that perk.

Huntress/Slinger rock 'infinites'. Yeah, it exacerbates and existing problem, but you still get the down on the large rocks. It takes longer, sure, but you still get the down. When it comes to the full height loops that aren't jungle gyms it basically tests the player's map knowledge and Slinger/Huntress hitbox knowledge. Jungle gyms require timed snipes rounding corners.

Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag - Yeah, yep, what?, excuse me lol, maybe fair enough (Hag is in the Knight's camp of nothing of value being lost though). Any bog standard M1 Killer can deal with it easily enough other than the first 2 you listed, as detailed before. Legion and Plague though?!? They legit are among the best users of both Thana and/or Blood Echo, which hard shuts down staying injured to play against their power. If they heal, then you win from massive slowdown with Legion, or red puke as Plague. All it takes with Legion/Plague is 1 good 50-50 mindgame in the worst of normal cases (other than shack/GoJ Window/some of Campbell's main building layouts, but those latter examples are why I use Bam on Legion even before MfT came out.)

Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly - So 99.99% of matches it was a problem? I gave an example of your usual SWF match, as nearly no one is calling out like Hens' sweat squad style. You couldn't meaningfully 'call out' Eruption unless you were purposely losing in chase to proc it early. Even then that would give plenty of slowdown by shortening chases and providing greater pressure. Heck even if we ignore SWF entirely it was something like 60% of matches it would be oppressive in its own right.

ToT - Yeah to be fair I was hyping up my main man ToT, like I said, lemme sell my Snake Oil. The issue is hypothetically does everyone hop off gens until you see the chase on the HUD, or do they pump gens and risk the free damage state? I have a positivity bias towards ToT, so I can't give a strictly fair answer to that, but I think they pump gens and risk it. However I get value once in a match and call it worth the perk slot, kind of like Blast Mine as well. I won, even if I lost, because I got ToT/Blast Mine value. Positivity bias.

Blood echo is simply bad perk. High CD and two requirements for limited effect. When they remove CD, I might consider it.

Thana is not counter to MFT. MFT doesn't require you to stay injured, that may be true only for resilience, but not needed.

Against Legion, just taking Thana is still better than heal tho.

Thing is those builds existed and were used before MFT was a thing. They are not super strong, they are not hard to beat. You just push through, it's not countering chase perks. MFT still does give you that effect.

The hard counter to the allegedly impossible to counter/too powerful perk is there, and 15s downtime is what make it unusably bad? I don't understand what you are complaining about. Its like saying "I want some good ole bird meat" and when the person gives you both Chicken and Turkey you respond, I actually want Ostrich meat. Its the same backwards logic in saying Discordance doesn't counter Prove Thyself when you don't know they are pumping gens. The issue was people remain injured against Plague/Legion. Both perks hard counter/punish that behavior. If they heal into Thana, you get the bonus slowdown, if they remain injured you can get Blood Echo to delete not only MfT, but also all other Exhaustion perks other than basically Nicolas Cage's new exhaustion perk (which requires being healthy).

To think of things a different way, Legion/Plague's power, is to have Survivors always have 1 health state, or heal at the cost of 2-5s injuries (as well as downs with red puke). Getting even a single down and hook provides so much pressure, that the Survivors have a ticking clock or they die. Thana arguably helps camping more (injuring all 4 makes gens take 112.5s instead of 90s), and Fearmonger or Blood Echo help chase more. Even then I would still make the argument that Thana can serve as a counter to MfT. MfT makes chases take longer (but still go down), Thana makes gens take longer (but still get popped), so both side's opponents' main objectives are taking longer as a result. They both are serving effectively the same role, but to be fair using the phrase 'counter' makes it imply it is in direct opposition instead.

Thana/bad perk (Blood Echo) on 2 Killers - Which was the exact 2 Killers you listed as getting destroyed by MfT as it is so ridiculously 'broken', and I gave you 2 reasonable counters for them to use with greater efficacy than Fearmonger (and I guess you completely ignored the last sentence and got caught up far too much on the word 'counter' in the case of Thana), heck they even both can stack for added effectiveness. This would be like saying Corrupt Intervention is bad on Trapper. A specific perk pick being more valuable on a specific Killer, my word. (To restate/rephrase the Thana 'counter' argument, if chases are taking 20% longer, and gens are taking 20% longer, the effectiveness of both functions are countering one another from a macro standpoint.)

Fearmonger 5s - If you can't get a down with the Survivor burning 5s walking or taking 10 fast vaults (or any combo thereof) and they won every single mindgame, unironically skill dif git gud, yuh got larger problems than a single perk. If they leave immediately on 32m TR to walk the 5s directly away from you, it still loses them ~6 seconds in chase compared to running immediately. (A theoretical 53.33s insta-run hit versus 47.29166s walk for MfT hit.) Also what Survivor actually instantly walks/runs on TR to the point you can't see them leave and cut them off shortening this time further? Heck in that world I would have 50% slowdown by walking around as Killer on most maps. Whenever that happens I get free hits due to people waiting out the Fearmonger exhaustion more than enough to make up for the times I get less value. It most certainly will help in the first chase, because they only need to tap the gen for a milisecond to get exhausted. If you find a cross-map runner you can get the injury and move on to greener pastures if that paralyzed in fear of MfT.

I still think MfT speed isn't a problem because of the opportunity cost with Sprint Burst. (To be fair, the endurance shouldn't be on the perk, throw it onto Buckle Up or something else and it'd be fine.) You have to give up Sprint Burst essentially to use it, and Sprint Burst is far more valuable than MfT in pretty much all cases other than Knight and Doctor, although I'll take your word for it on Hag as well. So only for less than 10% of killers is MfT better than Sprint Burst. Feel free to complain as a Doc/Knight/Hag main, but thank them for not using SB as everyone else.

Sprint Burst/MfT - You already restricted the discussion to 'Survivors with skill', so in that subset yes Sprint Burst is more powerful. Survivors without skill, to retread on already covered ground, make both MfT not juicy, and walk with Sprint Burst when they shoudn't. You have to include 99'd Sprint Bursts in the discussion if you also allege all these Survivors are god loopers that win every 50/50 mindgame, especially due to MfT. Yes, its fair to say Sprint Burst gets 1 big use, and MfT gets multiple chances at value, but my argument is the multiple MfT chances sum up to less total value than the 1 big use of Sprint Burst in ~90% of cases. Even before MfT came out, as long as you were a variety Killer, you would know how to take 4.4 basic loops from playing Huntress/Slinger/Spirit/more. MfT effectively makes 4.6 into 4.48, so it makes you a 4.4 Killer with extra wiggle room. It makes sense if basically all the complaints are coming from 1-tricks who haven't learned other Killers of the game. Plus that also is entirely discounting power use and bloodlusting.

Thana - I can't tell if you are ignoring what I'm writing about Thana, or I'm not explaining it right. Lets ignore that and stop talking about it.

SB math - In that same scenario MfT is giving 12.36m, compared to SB's 18m and the 4.6 Killer's 13.8m. Plus if the Killer is not chasing you, that already has given you the value needed. If the Killer does continue to chase, SB has a 6m flat reward, and MfT gives .12m/s, or 50s to match Sprint Burst. But I'll use your math of 35s below after a minor side point with Sprint Burst. Typically map resources are limited. The pallet, once dropped, is kicked and destroyed forever. (Theoretically it could be Any Means Necessary'd, but that would require you to not get downed near the pallet.) Sprint Burst can let you remain on a gen (in the case of no Fearmonger) and Sprint away to a further pallet or Window if the Killer tries to swap aggro onto you from the other person in chase (or just patrol your gen), when you otherwise would take a hit. Again, reaching safety helps prevent hits, and if you showed me breakevens on common loops with MfT compared to without MfT, that would help your point. For example I cede the argument that MfT makes shack 'unplayable', and by that I mean a skilled Survivor will always get 3 window vaults with MfT. Against a normal shack chase, it is at least still possible to hit a skilled Survivor before 3 vaults.

35s chase - It currently takes 15s to get Bloodlust 1, 10s (or 25s total) to get Bloodlust 2, and 10 more seconds (or 35s total) to reach Bloodlust 3. Legion can't do anything do drop Bloodlust without accidentally entering power (although Bloodlust also drops if stunned or kicking a pallet). If you are saying a Legion is unable to get a down with friggin 9.9s of Bloodlust 2, you are saying the Legion is so inept they deserve to lose, to which I would agree. We are in the realm of both sides being skilled opponents however. So in that realm, Bloodlust 2 means the Survivor gets hit. In that world, it is mathematically impossible for MfT to ever have more value than Sprint Burst. The only exception is a pallet that is forced to be kicked, such as shack pallet, and many indoor maps have multiple god pallets with no windows. Since the Survivor is forced to drop the pallet, they will quickly burn through the map resources of these god pallets, and subsequent chases will result in quicker downs. Even if relying on medium strength pallets, with Bloodlust 2, the pallet is too weak that even when the pallet is respected, the follow up loop will cause them to be downed. When I check the math on pallet kicks in a 'hold-W' scenario, it takes 15.6s/20.085s to catch up after a pallet kick, normal/MfT timings. (2.34s pallet kick with starting distance of running away during that timeframe with 4.0/4.12 m/s, and the Killer catching back up at .6/.48 m/s.) So in both cases the M1 Killer should at the very least have Bloodlust 1 back up before the Survivor is hit.

So for a pallet overview, Weak pallets like RPD save room under the library, anyone can get a hit on. Medium Strength pallets, like the pallet in RPD library, can be Bloodlust 2'd (dropped or up). God pallets, like on the main stairwell in RPD, must be kicked, but are also permanently deleted once dropped. If you can perfectly chain god pallets you can survive, otherwise the Killer is getting a hit, typically in under 30s. There simply isn't enough time for a skilled M1 Killer to allow for a Survivor to get more value with MfT than Sprint Burst outside of the chained god pallets.

Does Bloodlusting on either side feel good? No. Does going against a good Survivor with MfT feel good? No. But all Killers have a basekit method of dealing with it at the very least, and it can be done typically in under 30s of chase.

Edit: Spelling/Grammar

Bloodlust against SB - Yes, killing Survivors also makes them unable to run /s. The point was you said the SB/MfT breakeven point where MfT is better was 35s. You can basically know in a M1 chase with the Bloodlust mechanics whether or not SB or MfT was better based on the Bloodlust level reached. If you reached T3, MfT helped. If you reached less than that, the Survivor would have been better served by SB.

Non deadzone gens with windows - That also doesn't stop the Killer from approaching the gen from an angle perpendicular to the window, such that vaulting the window keeps you the same distance from the Killer (--W--- K [like such]). SB still allows for reaching safety, even if the Killer has better positioning from the onset. Also again if we have this fantasy world where every MfT gamer is running on entering TR, then the gen slowdown that perk is granting is far more value for the Killer than the chase lengthening is granting value for the Survivor.

Combo Perk - Resilience doesn't have an exhaustion pre-req, so anyone can stack it. Iron Will and Dead Hard are fair arguments though. Personally I find DH to be vastly overrated, although there is a fair argument to be made with a MfT double-dip. Honestly I feel triple/quadruple-dipping in 1 facet on either side with perks is only good for meme builds, such as all auras Huntress/Nurse. Opportunity cost is the largest factor. But for sake of argument I'll give MfT+DH and explore it below.

Assuming the Killer didn't bring Fearmonger (which I consider a must have if this paralyzed in fear of a MfT+DH wombo combo), I think most Killers still have little problem. All hyper-mobility attacks and top tier Killers already have no problem with that, so that rules out Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Oni/Wesker/Twins(Victor)/Demo(shredding). Pyramid Head, Artist, and Nemesis force hits at windows and pallets by zoning and not using power if bad for them. Deathslinger and Legion apply Deep Wound against healthy Survs if needed to counter DH, and Deathslinger's power hits counter DH anyways. Instadown Killers bypass the injured state so Bubba/Ghostface/Billy/Myers all don't care. Pinhead chains prevent both DH and MfT. I haven't noticed with Clown, but I believe Purple bottles still force medium vaults, even with MfT's haste (which is where most hits are gained) and Freddy's Hindered is also in Clown's boat. Wraith can both hit and run and intercept non Sprint speed Survivors before they reach the window or pallet to bodyblock them for a free hit typically. Most of the other M1 Killers such as Pig/Sadako/Dredge have stealth to edge out easier hits. Trapper has traps, although you aren't forced to kick god pallets and can trap it instead. So I guess the only Killer that doesn't get anything is Trickster.

Personally I would lump Trickster in the Knight and Hag's camp of nothing of value being lost, but that does bump the numbers from 3 to 4 Killers who can't meaningfully deal with MfT+DH (3/4 are not generally enjoyable Killers to deal with though). That isn't even going into add-ons so I'll check the 'countered' Killer's add-ons now. Hilariously enough, 7.1.0 Battle Hag Shoe will counter MfT almost perfectly (4.73-4.12 puts her net +.61 at or 14.8% faster than MfT compared to the normal 4.6 vs 4.0 15% faster). Blacksmith's Hammer For Knight actually hard counters the combo, as you let them outrun your guard and they are exhausted and 3% hindered for 15s, otherwise they have to burn DH on the guard early. The best Trickster has is 2.5% (or 3.5% with 2 add-ons) haste when throwing knives, which doesn't quite match MfT's haste, or the reduced effectiveness, since it is only adding to the sub 4.0 knife throw speeds. Doc is the only one to not even get anything in the realm, as there is no reduced slowdown on shock add-on or exhaustion add-on for him, again an outdated Killer in need of QoL love.

All in all including add-ons, skilled Killers all have the tools to deal with MfT+DH, with the sole exception of Doctor. With that I would suggest the following for Doctor's add-ons. Restraint class add-ons not only aura reveal on Madness tier-ups, but also exhaust for the same or double duration (1/2/3s or 2/4/6s). Calm and Order have both the big blast effects moved onto one of the add-ons, and the other one reduces the speed penalty for both types of shocking, similar to Trickster's Knife throw speed add-on. Alternatively they could have each get a speed boost to one type of shocking, one for the big blast, the other for Shock Therapy.

Incorrect. The 4 Killers that might actually be countered by MfT each have an add-on to counter/manage it other than Doctor (although Trickster was the weakest). Therefore I thought of ways to buff Doctor. No need to be so disingenuous.

She was already nerfed. Her biggest issues were removed.. She doesn't really need any major changes imo. I wouldn't nerf her more just to create another Billy -> difficulty is not equal to reward.

Since when Nurse cares about soloQ or SWF? There is not much unique things you need to share between players for SWF to matter (not more than any other killer)

Pinhead is soloQ stomper, but not really Nurse.

Either you know how to loop her or you don't. Issue is Nurse looping is kinda specific, so most players are bad at it.

But same is for Nurse players. She has very unique playstyle so you need basically relearn whole game. It's fun to play against bad Nurse for sure.

I have suggested many ideas on how to improve soloQ. It definitely still needs some help. I wouldn't argue about it. I will argue about specific ideas tho.

You can't just take a quote out of context, especially when the next thought within the same paragraph was "That isn't even going into add-ons so I'll check the 'countered' Killer's add-ons now." That is why I said what you did was being disingenuous. You didn't even have to change paragraphs for me to explore what they had access to, in order to deal with issues.

Hag shoe - Fair enough, on it being a meme. However, if you want to discount Hag shoe for being a meme, then why bring up T1 Myers? That is a far larger meme than Hag shoe. That is unless you were talking about perma-T2 Myers, which I don't consider a meme barring bad Myers maps (Autohaven and other open maps).

Knight - Purple in terms of rarity is fair, but not optimal? I'm sorry but what other add-ons does Knight have going for him other than Map of the Realm, and maybe Dried Horsemeat? Again the idea is everyone else goes down no problem, it's just MfT allegedly destroying him, so the purple hard counters that.

As far as MfT I 100% think the Endurance part should be removed, or even better put onto Buckle Up or some other underperforming perk. I just don't find the 3% haste an issue with the (your estimate of 35s) breakeven against SB, showing SB as near strictly better. Every Killer can know if the Surv got value with MfT based on if the Killer reached Bloodlust 3.

Everyone has access to Fearmonger, as it Mindbreaker swapped to it when the Stranger Things perks became general perks. If you think the Survivors are all bringing the newest expansion perk, and the Killer doesn't have access to a general perk, you are complaining about matchmaking, not the perks.

As for middle of the road Killers, they start to learn some of the basics of selecting perks. Maybe they go multiple slowdown, maybe they try to balance Intel/Lethality/Slowdown, but they pick what they find makes their strengths stronger, or the weaknesses less vulnerable.

You keep talking about stuff I already addressed, so I don't think you are actually reading what I write. Best I can tell you are trying to reply spam me into submission, instead of engage in a conversation. So you win I guess. If you want to not skip over things I say or already said, then maybe I'll bother responding to you in the future.

Edit: It deleted the quote for some reason.