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The problem of survivor party and mmr system
Please read all the way to the end
Now in the game there is a problem because of which the mmr system is completely useless. The name of this problem is the survivor pati. There used to be no problem with survivor packs because there was no mmr system. The mmr system ruins your experience from a certain point if you play as an a killer and even if you play as a survivor I will explain why it works like that. If you go to high mmr you will be very often caught in packs because mmr is based on whether you survived or not. The chances of surviving are much greater in a pack which means that on high mmr there will be many survivor packs. Survivor packs play as a team and use special perks and builds to maximize effectiveness. Party survivors have a much higher gen rush than solo survivors. Gen rush is normal because it is the goal of the game itself - to start all the generators and there is nothing wrong in the fact that survivors start generators quickly, but pati with the help of coordination of actions achieve incredible speed of starting generators and that means you as an killer need something to counteract. If you play the classic scenario of hanging all survivors and not focusing on anyone in particular, you'll realize that you're constantly losing and can't kill anyone. And players for killers realize that they need to do something about it - tunnel survivors, camp, play from the triangle and it WORKS! Why does it work? Because the party is trying to save their friends because they play together and most parties do. And that's where the arms race begins. One side sees that it is losing and starts using those tactics that are MAXIMALLY unpleasant for the opponent and MAXIMALLY effective. Let's imagine a situation: a survivor has reached a high mmp, maybe he used to play in a pack but now he has stopped. And now this survivor gets killers who camp and tunnel because they play at high mmp. Will this survivor be happy? Definitely NO. Why is the killer camping and tunneling you? Not because it's fun, but because he wants to win. You apply the optimal strategy and you can't change it and your opponents can't change their strategy either. I'm being tunneled by an killer - what can I do? I can't not start the generators. Or killer: I tunnel but my opponents don't play in a pack but then why should I tunnel? Here we get to the situation that the pack is ruining the game for solo survivors. Simple example: I play 10 games against a pack, they try to win as much as possible and I have to try very hard to win I tunnel and camp. I go in for killers to have fun but no, I have to tunnel and camp survivors because it's a pack and there is no other way. The next game is not against a pack and on 5 generators survivors die because I played against them as a pack. In this situation it's bad for the killer, solo survivors and even the pati because: sooner or later the pati gets caught by killers like nurse camper. The nurse camper camps the survivors on 5 generators and the pati can't do anything about it. And packs start to fall for such killers often because the packs are forced by the killers effectiveness to play this way. Likewise, killers can also use such behavior to provoke solo survivors to play in a pack because killers start tunneling and camping after playing in a pack. As a result, we come to the point that survivors need to play in packs and killers need to tunnel and camp. Is that a good thing? Absolutely NO! How to solve this problem? Let's pretend that there are no more packs in the game and you can argue "killers will now tunnel and camp solo survivors" I can answer NO they won't. Because there is no point because there is no need. If you are playing close to victory there is no point in tunneling and camping and there is no point in survivors playing in a pack because maniacs don't tunnel and camp. I suggest making the maximum players together 2. That is 2 players can play together + 2 random solo survivors. This would literally solve a huge amount of problems in the game. But then, if we remove the ability to play survivor in a pack of more than 2 people, we need to weaken the S-killers, otherwise there will be too much skew towards strong killers. By removing the survivor pack and weakening the strong killers, we get balance and much less toxic behavior. And finally both sides will stop getting one negative thing from the game.
Thank you for your attention!
Comments
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That's actually a descent direction to deal with people using outside voice communications why playing dbd.
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Yes
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That's a big wall of text my dude. To sum up a TLDR: -
- SWFs survive a lot more often than solo queue because of the comms advantage. This means higher MMR means more SWFs.
- As MMR goes up, this means better skilled killers are always playing vs. Groups with comms that are faster at everything, so now has to start using their group altruism against them by tunneling and camping.
- Over time this translates to all survivors are constantly going up against tunneling, camping Nurse's and alike, because anything other than that means the killer loses more often than not.
- SWFs ruin the game for all by having comms tipping the balance heavily in Survivor favour, forcing killers to use the most effective and nasty strategies to keep up.
- To prevent this, instead of allowing 4 man highly organised SWFs in queue, have each group limited to 2 players. You still can play with your friends, but in a limited capacity. This means no team has perfect comms, so the killers don't have to rely on camping and tunneling to remain effective, and thus makes the game far more balanced and fun for everyone.
(Do correct me if I got anything wrong)
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It's normal to encounter better teams in high MMR, no one is forcing killers to camp & tunnel in retaliation and it's normal that survivors encounter sweaty killers in high MMR too (SWF or not).
If you don't like those strategies don't use them, if you want to win go ahead but don't complain about having to sweat because having to sweat to win in high MMR is normal in every game ever, against people with comms or not.
SWF aren't forcing you to use those strategies, if you played normally and lost against them you wouldn't encounter them half as much. You decide to tunnel and camp because you'd rather win most games and keep going up in MMR (and having to sweat even more) than just play as you like.
Also the answer to the "SWF are too strong in comparison to solo q" problem is to buff solo q to lessen the gap between them, not to forbid people from playing with their friends.
Finally, 4ppl SWF are the least common survivor combination killers encounter and the majority of killers would not stop camping and tunneling if they didn't exist anymore. They would only stop doing that if there was an even easier way to win.
Killers don't go against 4ppl organized swf nearly as much as they say they do, it's just the boogeyman they blame for losing and use an an excuse to use the "nasty" strategies. Take swfs away and they'll just blame something else.
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That's right!
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You're suggesting we don't play to win. In that case, you can at least stand afk, but most people play to win. So everything I said above makes sense
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That's a silly argument. Everyone plays to win, but not everyone would sacrifice their fun to do so. I try my best to win but I'd rather lose a game fair and square instead of doing things I find boring and unfun to ensure I win. I can do gens efficiently without bringing a BNP, I can play killer at the best of my abilities without tunneling at 5gens, and I don't feel the need to bring meta builds to give me better chances.
Lile, either you just want to win in which case complaining about "but I don't want to sweat to win" is silly and what you're asking for is basically being able to consistently win without effort, aka you just want easy wins and you shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game, or you'd rather enjoy your games in which case absolutely no one is forcing you to sweat beyond what you find fun to secure a win.
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I want to enjoy the game. Both as a solo survivor and as a killer. But killers tunnel and camp and I myself have to, as I prefer to win and not see survivors in the gate. Playing in the usual scenario against a party of survivors I face my absolute helplessness, as I just genrashat and I at most make -1 trying hard. That's why ONLY tunneling and camping works against party survivors and 9/10 games I have against them. And for a survivor I also face tunneling because very few people play for solo survivors at high mmp. Genrash ruins the game for both killer and all survivors....
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I really don't mean to sound rude but I highly doubt you're going against 4ppl swf 9 games out of 10. Also, killers camp and tunnel regardless of MMR and it's kinda weird that you believe they only do it at high MMR because there's only swf while also believing you're in high MMR as a solo survivor. Solo survivors in high MMR is really not that uncommon, neither is facecamping and tunneling in low MMR.
And again, killers wouldn't stop tunneling if swf stopped existing, especially in high MMR where it's just people playing sweaty on both sides and it would remain the most efficient strategy.
(also I'm not surprised you made an entire post suggesting we delete swf because tunneling is bad only to blame genrush for everything, surely killers have no part of responsibility for how they behave and it's all the survivors' fault)
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Killers want to win too and use various tactics to do so. But camping and tunneling is very toxic and unpleasant, as is playing from the triangle. I'd be happy if these things were removed from the game, but you can't do that without removing genrush from the game completely. At high mmp I very rarely encounter solo survivors and of course in that case I spend the game quietly and without toxic stuff. Too many survivors play in packs and genrush, if killers stop tunneling and camping they will just have a winrate of 10%. Bhvr are against camping and tunneling, but you have to realize that killers do it for a reason. You can't just remove genrush and leave tunneling and camping, because some killers will still use it. Likewise, you can't remove tunneling and camping from the game without removing the genrush, otherwise survivors will destroy killers. It is necessary to remove both genrush and tunneling and camping. Only then will the game finally have 90% less toxic behavior, sweaty matches and tedious strategies. You can remove genrush by making the minimum time to repair the generator 70-80 seconds, even if the survivors have all perks for genrush. You can remove tunneling and camping by inventing different penalties for these actions. It is also possible to weaken S tir killers as they are aimed at fighting genrash and without genrash will not be needed so strong. This is my opinion, but it is not unfounded. I play a lot of high mmr and know what I'm talking about. When you play 20 games in a row and the game script doesn't change, continuing to be toxic and annoying, it gets annoying. 17/20 games - camping + tunneling in response to genrush + tea bagging.
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Camping and tunneling are many things from boring to very annoying but toxic isn't one of them.
You have no way of knowing if you're at high MMR or if your opponents are solo survivors or swf, but i'm going to assume you're in average MMR and rarely going against 4ppl swf because they're the rarest combination and if you were actually in MMR high enough there's only 4ppl swf you wouldn't complain about it because you'd be crushing solo q survivors.
"if killers stop tunneling and camping they will just have a winrate of 10%" that's an exaggeration but I agree kill rates are inflated by those behaviors. The funny thing is if killers stopped doing those things kill rates would drop and the killers who need it would be buffed. Nerfing "genrush" or swf wouldn't fix the problem at all, it'd just give free wins to killers who don't deserve it.
BHVR aren't against camping and tunneling. They're against facecamping but otherwise have said countless times that they're legitimate strategies.
Anyways, we're never going to agree if you think it's normal to argue that gens shouldn't take less than 70-80s to complete so you can easily win against better players than you, so I'll just be on my way.
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You can indeed enjoy the game if you simply relax and have fun while playing. The attached screenshot is from a game vs. SWF's (the Jeff, Zarina and Leon were teamed up), and I play in fairly high MMR (grades don't matter). I didn't camp them at all, allowed them to get saves, and going for a full 12-hook game. It was close though, as they got one exit open. I had downed the Jeff, and the Nea was hanging back in the exit, teabagging furiously. Until I realized she wasn't far enough out, so I downed her and brought her to a nearby hook. Guess that was instant karma after all.
Anyways, I brought this game up because I went from playing survivor that night, getting tunneled and camped a lot, and to prove a point that killers don't have to sweat their balls off to win games. Try to have fun once in a while. It really helps.
I should also add that I did not 3-gen them, even as the Skull Merchant. That's just a dirty way of winning. I like close games where it feels like you are winning fair and square, or losing in the same way. As long as the game feels close, like a tug of war between both sides. It feels so much more rewarding getting a good game that way, and not one that is determined 10 seconds after the game is started.
To the moderators: I remembered to censor the names of the survivors this time 😅
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I think it's unfair to play games where the first generator is started in 30 seconds and all subsequent ones in 40-50 seconds. It's called genrush and it's very unfair to the killer. I have games like yours and I genuinely get high from them) But such games are too rare, unfortunately.... Most survivors tend to get all the genrush in 3-4 minutes and run away. And so most killers tend to take 1-2 survivors out of the game as quickly as possible to even the playing field. I often have to play dirty because survivors also play dirty and I can't lose 9/10 games because of genrush. Dirty play begets dirty play, corruption begets corruption, violence begets violence. Basically in our game all the problems boil down to: genrush, camping, tunneling, playing from the triangle. I'm trying to convey to players who only want to destroy tunneling, or some other nasty strategy, that you can't do that. The balance of the game should strive for an equation, because in an equation everything is EQUALized and brought to EQUALITY. If we want to get rid of annoying strategies, we need to separate the two parts of the equation: the survivor part and the killer part. Then the balance will remain, but there will be no annoying strategies! Dbd is not the real world and in it you can eliminate foul play and injustice, that's what I'm striving for, I think I'm not the only one who doesn't like it when I'm tunneled the whole game, or genrashat in 4 minutes. This should not be tolerated, because in our lives and so much bad and at least in our favorite game we need to relax.
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Yeah when you put it that way it really shows how toxic this game can get and how mentally taxing it ends up being.
Games are supposed to be fun, not stressful. What you described are all my games lately. Sweat fests with bad sportsmanship.
The rare game where there is no toxic behavior, laughs and fun is getting more and more rare.
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Trust me, I do get those games where the survivors might as well be a professional team practicing before a tournament. Those are never fun, and causes a sense of anger. But I am able to brush them off and go into the next game open-minded
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Is just a cycle, killers says they tunnel because survivors are genrushing and survivors gen rush because killers are tunneling.
But let's be honest, many killer camp and tunnel at the start and blame genrush when just one generator has been done, it happens to me a lot.
Is very rare to actually encounter a full swf team, but is so common that killers tunnel and camp. I mostly play un duos with my friend and is awful, he wants to quit playing because most of our matches is just camping and tunneling at the start. What's the point of playing if another player is not gonna let you?
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Can't tell how many times that has happened to me lately. Being tunneled/camped out at 5 gens remaining. It's not fun having matches like that, where you are essentially unable to play at all, because the killer's best strategy is to hardcore tunnel someone out of the game as soon as humanly possible.
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" buff solo q to lessen the gap between them, not to forbid people from playing with their friends."
I feel like it's been general answer.
Considering that is right,If you replace this with the killer side, that is
" buff low-tier-killer to lessen the gap between them, not to forbid high-tier-killer and addons."
What is it actually like? quick shot,chainsaw without overheating,etc.
If it's OP, shouldn't it be recognized as OP and made to fit the game better?
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Paragraphs,… might motivate people to read ;)
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I mean, whenever im in a pregame lobby the other survivors invite me to a party...
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camp/tunnel = bad, but a skull merchant with terrible add ons, and 3 gens tactics = good=)
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If 15% isn't a big difference, then it's a difference of opinion.
According to the latest kill rate data,this is more than the difference between Pinhead and Trickster, and skilled nurses being only 9% higher than nurses overall.
You can keep improving without restrict, like Wesker and Clown did.
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