Why is BHVR so afraid to nerf tunnelling?
Tunnelling is popular strategy from day one.
It was understandable when maps was so survivorside.
It was tolerable when DS was strong.
Now maps nerfed and DS is garbage.
So why BHVR is not doing anything for this unhealthy strategy. It's very hated by survivors but yet BHVR is just ignoring all complains.
Imagine you are paying for this game but then one player just does not allow you to play.
Before someone is coming with "USE OTR" let me say this. OtR is the worst anti-tunnel perk ever. It has very easy counter, early hit. DS was so much better.
Plus DS was unexpected, killer did not know you have it or not. But it's so easy to figure if you have OTR.
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I mean... they have? They nerfed it a year ago, in 6.1.0. They also did add OTR as another viable anti-tunnel perk, as well as buffing Borrowed Time relative to where it was before.
It may still be bad, but back when you could be hit the second your feet touched the ground from an unhook, it was noticeably worse. Progress has been made, albeit slowly.
That being said, reverting DS' stun time would be a great change to help that along.
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OTR is overrated. It became redundant after stacking endurance was removed, and now OTR gets negated by just hitting the survivor right as they get unhooker.
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How they nerfed it? Are you joking?
They actually buffed it?
DS nerfed. Mini STBFL added to killer base-kit. Speed boost reduced from hits.
Oh yea, we got base-kit BT which is so garbage. Anyone can count 10 seconds. And if you have not strong loop to near you, you are dead. And it does not matter even if you have it, thanks to killers like Spirit, Nurse, Blight, Wesker etc.
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because there is no counter-play to DS. there is no alternative way for killer to win.
If you slug a decisive strike user for 60 seconds ->60 second that 3 people can rush generators+potencial pick-up.
if you don't slug decisive strike user and pick up -> free second chance to extend chases. you get punished either way. lose/lose perk. creating anti-tunnel perk is punishing killer for playing the game.
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There is counter for DS: DON'T TUNNEL.
It's really so easy.
Like you said to me before, OtR should be like MoM. It should have different Endurance effect. So killer can't steal it from you with early hit.
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It's hard to make a decisive strike(3 seconds lmao why bhvr) against tunneling without it being abused or disruptive to the match. Trying to code a system that "detects" tunnel without it being easily worked around or easily abused is simply very hard.
Just unnerf DS please
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They nerfed it by... making it so the killer cannot down you immediately after you're unhooked? Giving you a speed boost, too, so that while the killer is waiting it out, you're getting further away from them than you would be otherwise?
That wasn't a buff to tunnelling. DS being nerfed is the only thing that could be argued as a tunnelling buff, and while I do think it deserves a longer stun, that alone doesn't outweigh the fact that the most egregious form of tunnelling was completely removed. Any time you're being tunnelled now, with a handful of killer-specific exceptions, you have some agency in the matter.
I'm not saying there's no problem with tunnelling currently, but it's unfair to ignore what the devs have already done to lessen the issue. It did, genuinely, use to be worse than this. The devs did implement anti-tunnel measures before, they haven't completely ignored it.
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You do know that tunneling will always be a thing regardless of how bhvr nerfs it. There's nothing unhealthy about it. The killer's job is to kill.
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Tunneling already is super risky and has an inherent counter called being good.
The only reason killers should win by tunneling is if the killer is super good in which the game was over anyways or the survivors play bad in which they should lose anyways.
I don't think survivors need more than what we have to counter it personally.
The killers super good at tunneling (Blight,Wesker) just need nerfs is all.
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Maybe i am bit overacting, probably you are right.
But honestly, tunnelling feels worse. DS always gave me fight back chance when it was strong enough. But now i have nothing. OtR is really not good to stop tunnelling. It's not effective like old DS.
And i never saw tunnelling was that popular, it was always in game but it's now almost every game. Some games it's me, some games one of the my teammates. I don't think currently we have healthy game.
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I think ds was even too weak with the timer 60s timer being too short so it punishes you from playing well. It should be 80s like otr and the skill check should be easier as it punishes new players who need it the most. If doing these changes I think the perk is fine while increasing the stun to either 3,5s or 4s giving bit more distance for survivor. Nurse and blight it could stun longer.
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lol no
Even super good players get tunneled out fast. If you are a worse player and choose to tunnel someone better than you, you were probably already going to lose.
Sometimes, there are busted set-ups and tunneling isn't super viable at that moment in time. However, the vast majority of the time, tunneling isn't really a thing you can say "it's risky and the counter is being good 4head"
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That's a bit of a stretch honestly...maps are still stupid, DS is still strong despite what sheep say, OTR exists, gens can go by very quickly still, etc. Tunneling is still a necessary evil, it can't really go away until they fix the things that make it as such or at the same time, so it's a lot of work especially for the bhvr standards we know
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None of the M1 killers are any good at tunneling unless its a really sparse map like Rotten Fields, any decent player can run them long enough for at least 3-4 gens to pop with unhook BT, in which its on the team to finish the last gen and get a 2 out at worst. I don't really see the problem with that.
The problem is when people who play the best killers tunnel, because I think a Blight/Wesker/Spirit tunnel is virtually uncounterable unless the player is terrible.
But that just means those killers need to be nerfed, not that survivors need even more tunnel protection.
The issue with making basekit anti tunnel features is that it will be used offensively instead of defensively like how BT is used right now, which can lead to all sorts of problems.
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I am sharing my opinion on forum. I have no rule book. Be respectful.
There is some maps are problematic, true but i don't think most of maps are that bad. They are just fine. But some killers are so weak, even maps like Midwich probably feeling bad for them. So these killers should be buffed.
I am not against buffing the other side , it's just i am asking for more fun and healthy game design.
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There shouldn't be any form of forced safety. Every survivor needs to continuously be a valid target at any point in a match.
Good survivors can easily turn temporary invincibility into abusable situations.
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I agree with you mostly, but tunneling also alleviates pressure from gens with survivors trying to body block for the tunneled person and maybe getting slugged in the process. It's also extremely powerful when the killer can find the weak link(s) and currently that is not very difficult to do (usually the no prestige or prestige 1 Claud/Meg/Dwight/Jake/David etc.) and these people's only skill is doing gens not looping.
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It was understandable when maps were so survivorside.
were? WERE??? i'm sorry??
yes tunnelling needs addressing but damn.
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Why is BHVR so afraid to nerf Gen Rushing, god windows and pallets, exhaustion perks, toolboxes, etc?
You wanna take away all the options from killers? then we gotta take away from survivors as well.
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Because they can't just nerf every killer strategy in the book without killing their game in the process. Survivors cannot play the game without a killer and vice versa.
Going for hooks over kills is not viable for the most part, which is why we see a fairly high amount of killers resorting to slugging, camping and tunneling. Also, there are situations where you should follow one or more of these strategies because the survivors grant you the opportunity. Right now, they focus on camping (probably because it's the least interactive). Nerfing that will lead to an uprise in the other 2 and probably lower kill rates.
It isn't as simple as: "Just punish the killer for playing mean." because it takes a lot of agency away from the killer, reduces tactical gameplay, creates more imbalance and ultimately makes killers less viable and fun. For every nerf to these play styles they will have to implement compensatory buffs. And this takes time.
Although, BHVR could communicate a bit more about future changes to these strategies. It wouldn't kill them to say something among the lines of: "Though it's not our top priority right now we are planning to make some changes regarding X but cannot give you the details yet. Expect more news on this in the future."
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You really did not play this game in first years, do you? Where Gyms had 2 pallets. Where god pallets was next to each other. It was nightmare.
Non of current maps can compare with this
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I disagree.
You have to understand that it takes WAY less skill to execute a tunnel than it does to successfully prevent it.
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I agree completely, I want more fun game design too, it realistically just can't really be that way yet, esp depending on how much they're prioritizing it, which noone knows
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When they changed old DS everyone stopped running it because it wasn't god mode anymore and they ended up needing to make the obsession icon permanent in games since killers would tunnel hard in games where there wasn't a DS user. The only thing healthy when DS was in the meta was the passive deterrent.
I would think they are fine with how OTR is working since they haven't touched that perk still. If tunneling is really bad you can run the anti-tunnel perk and reduce the effectiveness of that strategy. At the end of the day if they were looking to do something more with tunneling I would think it would be a passive deterrent that survivors can't use offensively. If that was the case I don't see it being a quick and simple change and they also have the anti-face camp mechanic coon soon. At the end of the day there is only so much they can do at one time.
Post edited by Trollinmon on0 -
Because the devs don't want you to be outright immune to being tunneled.
Removing tunnelling is laughably easy to do. They could give you DH-esque I-frames. Make Old DS basekit. They could do so much that if BHVR thought that tunnelling should be removed, they could do it.
However, tunnelling is (by the devs' words) a strategy in the killer's arsenal. They don't want it to be too good but they don't want it to be the obvious answer. The devs added things like basekit BT because they don't want a survivor to be outright defenseless (its entire purpose being to give you time to make it to a pallet/window), they don't want you to basically be invincible, which is what DS more or less did.
Furthermore, all other killer strategies are becoming weaker and weaker as time is going on. Camping has been hit by Reassurance and soon the anti-facecamp mechanic. Slugging has been repeatedly hit with the likes of MFT, UB, (PTB) Buckle Up, WGLF, FtP, etc. Hit and Run just came back after being obsolete for over a year because of CoH but not every killer is built for it. That leaves tunnelling, and people can and will take shortcuts when possible.
And if you nerf that too, well, now we're in a bind because the only "shortcut" left is to ensure your chases are extremely and reliably fast. This is also horrible for survivors as the chase is what makes the game fun, which is one of the reasons the likes of Nurse/Blight are so hated; they take the fun aspect of the game and end it in 12 seconds.
TL;DR this issue is a lot more complicated than it might seem at a glance, and the devs are struggling to find a balance between keeping tunnelling viable while ensuring the survivor still has a chance to do something before dying.
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And a survivors job is to survive. This is always such a weird statement.
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Even if you did get hit with DS, 3 seconds is VERY little. It’s really only 2 seconds since 1 second of the animation is spent dropping the survivor to the floor. As @MikaelaWantsYourBoon said, just don’t focus down one survivor and you’ll be fine. Don’t act like DS doesn’t have counterplay, because it absolutely does.
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the counter-play is eating the perk and playing strong efficient chasing killer that downs swiftly.
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Tunnelling is popular strategy from day one. ---I wonder why 🙃
gen speeds - bad map design----It was understandable when maps was so survivorside. --cough .they still are , is just the average survivor skill being even lower-
It was tolerable when DS was strong. -Fair and I agree , current DS is a joke with the 3 sec stun , the deactivation on endgame is fine tho-
Now maps nerfed and DS is garbage. - I wouldnt say nerfed more like different , some loops are still strong others are garbage-
but thats just bhvr like always making things either too survivor sided or too killer sided in terms of loop strength.
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You wanna know a fun fact? You won’t have to eat the stun ever if you don’t tunnel immediately off hook early game.
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You can touch tunneling when I don't have to spend 5 hours holding W to catch a survivor because maps seem to be loaded with pallets. Like sure some maps got nerfed but then they released the rework for gas heaven and it make smain way more accessible and has a noticeable abundance of pallets around it. And every new map from eyrie on ward has just been a clusterfuck of busted main buildings or abundance of resources.
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I actually think that BHVR can't really nerf it. Think about the ways they could:
Basekit OTR would still be abused to bodyblock and wouldn't really discouage tunneling all that well
Basekit 5 second DS would be the same
Reverting the DS nerf wouldn't be enough.
I had a suggestion to remove tunneling via making it so survivors have no collision and hitboxes until they commit a conspicous action or a minute has passed.
The responses boiled down to:
I can't harrass the killer via bodyblocking if this happened
The game would be unplayable if I couldn't hard tunnel at 5 gens.
It would be "unrealistic".
The community doesn't want their toys taken away, and if tunneling was removed they'd have to "adapt", which doesn't happen in DBD.
What happens to perks people don't like? Screams after screams after screams until the developers change it.
Both sides would be screaming here, so no one would adapt, and nothing could change.
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Tell that to my friends who experienced less than 5 minute matches due to being tunneled and all quit for good :(
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tunneling feels worse because of the gen speed my friend. Killers feel the need to tunnel someone out because the clock is ticking and it ticks and the gens speed light. When you lose 2-3 gens by the time you have 1-2 successful down. You know you gotta get someone out ASAP. Im sure most killers would stop tunneling if they wouldnt lose gens that quick. This wouldnt solve the problem 100%, of course they will always be tunneler , but im sure it would be from time to time vs unexperienced killers. Compare to now almost every game.
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- Basekit endurance & 10% haste for 10 seconds extended to 20 entire seconds with BT
- OTR a personal BT for 80 seconds that also gives you old iron will and distortion
- DS is still usable against most killers if you die in a good spot which basekit bt allows you to reach
Saying they did nothing about tunneling when these massive changes were added guaranteeing you don't insta die off hook and have a chance to loop no matter what perks your team brings.
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Let me get this straight:
80 seconds of endurance+iron will+distortion isn't enough? THREE perks in one off-hook for 80s isn't enough of an anti-tunnel?
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No, because it's still better to just smack that person off of hook and continue to tunnel.
Tunneling needs to be re-balanced in the base-game, not through perks.
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You'd have to nerf gen completion speed if you want extra protections from "tunneling."
Not every killer kit is powerful enough to ignore a survivor for the sake of not hurting their feelings.
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Which tunneling are we talking about?
Reducing or even denying a player his choice who and what to target is a rather big change.
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If you slug a decisive strike user for 60 seconds ->60 second that 3 people can rush generators+potencial pick-up.
Why are you standing there staring at a survivor that will not do gens, will not heal anyone, will not pick anyone up, will not make rescues, will not do totems and will not do any hook denial, instead of going for the 3 people that are doing generators?
Slugging a DS user is the entire counterplay. The entire perk is disabled if you just do not hit spacebar. If you hit /ignore on the guy who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds.
This is not DS punishing you, this is you making a colossal misplay because you're that laser-focused on hard-tunnelling that you forget the entire rest of the game.
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What I would recommend, and I am serious, is play Killer yourself. Play the game how you wish Killers would play. See how well you do. Maybe you'll do great, and if you do thats, awesome. But maybe you won't. If you don't do well, then see what works for you, decide what you are willing to do, and then you'll have a better understanding of why a killer might do something that you don't necessarily like as a survivor.
Also, how do YOU define tunneling? As I've had survivors hop right back on a generator less than a minute after they were unhooked and... then accuse me of tunneling because I didn't let them finish that generator. Like, no. That's not tunneling, no matter the accusations of such in end game chat.
I also once was on RPD and had hooked one survivor who unalived himself on hook, the second DCed, leaving two left, Bill and Leon. Bill gets hooked, then I go looking for Leon. I find Leon all clicky clicky with his flashlight, so I chase him. He's a great looper. Bill gets to 2nd hook and Leon rescues him. I chase Leon, not Bill. Bill manages to finish 4 generators before I finally down the Leon and hook him. Bill lets him die on hook, but I find hi and hook him before he finds hatch. End game chat? The Leon is going OFF on me for tunneling... No, tunneling would have been going after Bill when he just got off the hook, but I chased the clicky clikcy guy with the flashlight for 4 generators... That wasn't tunneling. Also, apparntly it's impossible for survivors to escape from RPD. The map is a guaranteed 4K for every killer regardless of survivor skill level. Yea, he said that in addition to the tunneling accusation.
So, again I ask, how do YOU define tunneling? Because there are many players with many different ideas of what tunneling actually is.
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They did already nerf it.
Basekit bt+haste means you can make it 44 meters before you can get downed. If you have a bit of sense of where good loops are you pretty much always have a fighting chance.
And while i do agree it's a tad too effective (or rather spreading hooks is too innefective) it's really not that high on the priority list.
First off it's clearly intentional. It's a elimination based game. Why are you playing a elimination based game and then be upset you got eliminated?
If you die first in games like fortnite or amongus or whatever are you also upset?
Second for the "it's not fun" argument. Yeah it's not fun when you are eliminated quickly. Just like it's no fun when you play a fighting game and get flawlessed in 20 seconds. Or get projectile spammed when you can't deal with it.
You know what those things have in common? The mayority of the time it's cause you played badly.
95% of cases being tunneled is a excuse of the survivors misplays. Unhookers dissapearing the moment the unhook has happened, survivors running to the edge of the map where they are cornered instead of to the center, survivors not knowing how to run the main building of the map and prefer to run to unsafe pallets, etc etc etc...
If you play a fighting game and you refuse to learn how to block, can you really complain about getting rushed down? It's 100% in the killers hand if you get tunneled but outside of 2-3 killers with busted addons it's all in your hands how effective it is.
Third the no playing argument. This one is just plainly wrong. That's the argument for camping. You are playing the game when tunneled. You're playing the most excitting part of the game even. It's up to you however how long it last.
Fourth it's just the most logical thing to do. As long as a survivor on dead hook is equally efficient on gens as somebody who has never been hooked it's a fool's errant to not go after the one that's eliminated faster.
If you play RPG you also want to focus one enemy at a time unless there is a mechanic added that specifically makes that less viable.
Which is ultimately the price that's going to have to be payed if you want tunneling nerfed.
Why are the devs afraid to nerf tunneling? Cause 4 survivors are by design overwhelming for the killer.
Unless you bring hefty nerfs to the survivors by penalties on being hooked for the first time or whatever then that's not going to change.
Do want to clarify that i would like seeing tunneling not be the end all be all strategy if you want to win. But it's pretty clear that some drastic changes are going to be needed if you want to remove that option
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That's just not true.
Killers got best anti-gen meta ever with CoB + Overcharge + Eruption.
These perks made gens very slow and yet killers did not stop camping and tunnelling. And this ended for them losing these perks. Some anti-camp changes as well.
It's not realistic. Killers will always tunnel, even if game is so easy for them.
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BHVR is afraid of killers' backlash and to disappoint popular content creators. It's just more safe to keep the game killer-sided instead of trying to shift into more healthy, balanced and perspective state of the game. As you can see survivors don't really complain that much so it's another factor to just keep things as they are
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Back in the day I was not tunneling and had time to hook another survivor and still eat a DS.
It was mostly used offensively.
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I don't know if DS should go back to 5 seconds, but what they should change is that the stun applies AFTER the survivor breaks free.
So effectively the killer is stunned for 4 seconds, but you get 3 seconds of distance as opposed to only 2 seconds currently. Wouldn't be opposed to it applying on both hook states either.
Unfortunately yes, tunnelling and camping will always be a thing.
If gens are too fast, killers feel pressured to get a kill.
But if gens are too slow then killers have no downside to camping or tunnelling because the threat of gen rushing is reduced.
So then you add in a bunch of ways to discourage tunnelling and camping... but then its evened out by the fact that a longer chase on a survivor who is on death hook is often still more beneficial than a shorter chase on a survivor who hasn't been hooked. So then you make the anti-tunnelling stronger, but then survivors just abuse it and it goes against what it was intended for and NOT tunnelling becomes detrimental because survivors are trying to force you into it (like how if a survivor body blocks you with BT you are better off chasing them rather than continue chasing the unhooker) or survivors become near invincible (the old "small PP build").
So it's a very hard thing to balance because it's always going to be an effective and generally safe strategy or survivors can abuse those who don't tunnel.
There's no real way to fix. The best way I can think of is to make the reward for not tunnelling better than the reward for tunnelling, but I have no idea how that is possible or what to even do.
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I mean I'd probably say DS is one of if not the best survivor perk in the game rn. You just need to know when and where to go down so you're still in a decent position after it activates. Only killers id say it's mediocre against is spirit and nurse but even then it's still a pretty good timewaster.
Unfortunately tunnelling will always be the most effective strat unless they massively rework the base game. I don't think its too big of an issue though since it has a lot of counterplay involving taking hits, DS, DH,, and just looping well enough for the tunnel to be not worth it (easier said than done against some killers).
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Or maybe we should get anti-tunnel mechanic or perk which makes survivor lose collision. Let's say for 60 seconds.
Survivor can't use it as weapon. Killer can't chase them.
Ofcourse this will make tunnelling less viable but for cost, they can buff killers in general.
Hey Mr Killer, please don't down me here. I am on dead zone right now, my DS will be wasted because i have not any loop near. Can you please get me down next to shack. Thank you so much!
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That still can be abused though because without collision you can stand inside the killer and auto aim will hit them.
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In most matches, 2-3 gens go, before the killer gets the first hook. Game is lost when all 4 survivors are still alive at 1 gen. Which puts the killer in the position where he has to get 1 survivor out before that happens.
The meta speaks for itself.
Killer meta: slowdown, slowdown, slowdown aaaaand slowdown.
Survivor meta: barely anti tunnel perks. Mainly perks that prolong the chase or help with gens.
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