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Why is BHVR so afraid to nerf tunnelling?
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I love how you are calling people bad when you have no answer.
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That is the answer. The killer isn't making you unable to play the game by tunneling you out. The chases you had where in fact part of the game. If you are dying so quickly then it means the killer was outplaying you.
This is just simply part of the game that will always exist as long as the game is one where survivors can be eliminated. If being eliminated bothers you so much then maybe DBD isn't the pvp game for you.
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Where do you find those survivors? I play survivor 99% of the time and even when I'm on death hook unhooking someone and they should be bodyblocking for me they almost never do.
I can only imagine them body blocking if they're new and don't know any better, or if they're playing extremely altruistically in a SWF.
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Even my cat can out survivor with tunnelling.
You are acting like it's so hard. It's not. Tunnelling was already problem and devs buffed it for no reason. Anyone can out survivors with tunnelling, it's not big deal. It just shows how busted it is.
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It's very clear you just want your hand held considering you're comparing your own skill level in the game to a cat.
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Are you making a point or do you genuinely not get it?
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It's very clear you are just happy with easy mode you have. Tunnel out one of the survivors early and then get your easy wins.
Yeah even cats can win killer games at these days, it's just that easy.
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Stupid idea to make them lose collision. You say they can't use it as weapon? It won't last long until the first survs use that lose of collision to flashlightsafe and palletsafe a downed mate, because they dont have to fear getting hit. And to make it impossible to tunnel someone out would be way to much, because the gens go way to fast.
The best way to go against tunneling is slowing down the game. For example by making Hex Totems invisible. So Survivor have to cleanse every totem until they find it. Would be much fairer for Killer with the 90% crap totem spawns. The game lasts longer, because Survs need to find the totem -> Gens arent powered as fast -> Killer isn't forced to tunnel to slow the game down.
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The flipside of that argument, though, is that slowing down the game that much makes tunnelling even stronger when killers choose to do it.
That's the trap you risk walking into when you assume players only tunnel because they're forced to. They already aren't forced to, it's by no means necessary to win games, but it sure is easier and that's why people choose to do it. If you want to lessen the prevalence of tunnelling, you do have to do it by making it weaker and harder to do, because nothing else would actually work.
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This is just so wrong.
Killers got best slowdown months ago. CoB + Overcharge + Eruption. This meta made gens almost imposible to finish but yet, killers was still tunnelling.
If there is no fear for tunnelling, there is no reason to not tunnel.
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Eh, chase perks are the survivor meta because the majority of survivors don’t want to press a single button all game. They’d rather extend their chases and let their teammates do gens. The chase is the best part of playing survivor so of course chase perks are meta, not many people enjoy being gen jockeys.
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When did you start playing again? Cause people who were around playing against CoB + Eruption (or full slowdown build) will prove you otherwise. If that were true you wouldn't get killers like Blight and Nurse running those bullshit slowdown builds because by their design they can answer survivors of any level. But those killers still brought slowdown although they did not need slowdown and regression since they can cover so much distance.
People camped/tunneled and 3-genned just as much as now. And it was obnoxious. When the game passes the 15 minute mark there are few resources left if any. And people still defended that meta and told you "Just let the gen go when you think your teammate is gonna go down".
This game is not in its infancy. If people care about wins in any way they're gonna employ the easiest most skill-less way to win. I am aware there are people who wanna win in different ways but those people are a smaller percentage and they their playstyle is referred to as off-meta for a reason.
The killers and survivors playing now are not of the same skill level as they were back in 2016-18 even if people like to claim survivors/killers are bad and have no skill. On average the skill of a playerbase goes up over the years and certain metas emerge.
If survivors get better then killers have to employ better strategy, see tunneling/proxy-camping etc. Playing for 8-12 hooks can only be possible if you're outmatched. Same with a survivor running a killer for 5 gens. Maybe it was possible in the past because survivors didn't know the most efficient way to play and neither did killers. Survivor loops were also stronger etc.
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I've had killers try to tunnel me all the time, a lot of times they continue doing it and it costs them the game. Others even try to intervine and the killer won't stop.
It's kind of creepy, like a stalker. It's like, you can't catch me, stop over committing and then complain that you lost.
However sometimes map resources are all depleted and people can't help themselves any more, most of the player base is casual, and we all know the most successful games cater to casual folks.
I usually mention on here all my friends and people I've tried to get into the game get tunneled and say it's not fun and they quit, for good. I feel that something should be done if they want to keep their biggiest player base, the casuals, instead of just leave it alone for the few who can survive tunnel attempts!
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On EU servers?
I mean, sure. Not everyone plays like this. I´ve also seen teammates drop a pallet in my face after i tanked a hit for them.
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I also play in EU and I very rarely see it. It also doesn't make any sense why they do it. It has no benefit whatsoever for them or their teammate the majority of the time (exception being their teammate being on death hook) and I play solo.
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Chase perks are "fun" perks. Survivors don´t feel "forced" to equip anti tunnel perks like OtR or DS.
Meanwhile, killers can´t equip "fun" perks, because they feel "forced" to equip slowdown perks in order to have slightly longer matches. Means gens are still an issue, while tunneling isn´t that much of an issue anymore. Or the builds would look different.
At least thats what i read out of the meta selection.
If OtR, DS and BT were meta, then i´d agree about tunneling still being an issue. But since they´re not.
Also, i think that DS should go back to 5 seconds and inbuild BT should be a different status effect (not endurance). So Endurance perks are more viable and slightly stackable. Not that 5 hit abomination we had on the PTB. But at least some sort of stack.
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I´ve seen people on death hook trying to body block. All kinds of weird behavior.
As of why, i have absolutely no idea. Its just stuff that i see and notice.
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I am not seeing these survivors, it's weird because i am also EU player.
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I think the only reason anti tunnel perks aren’t super meta (I definitely see OtR a lot) is because they’re simply not very good at what they do. DS is a shadow of what it used to be and OtR can be rather useless if they simply hit you early off the hook. Chase perks can be just as effective at anti tunnel and don’t require you to be hooked first to activate (barring dead hard). And it might be a region thing but tunneling is the go to strategy for killers I play against. I see it in a vast majority of my games, whether it happens to me or one of my teammates. If DS was a 5 second stun I think it’d easily be one of the most popular perks for survivor.
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It may be because it would affect a lot of newer players too much. People who don't really know how to perform well in a chase, mind game, etc... It's easy to forget that not every newer player wants to watch how to guides and things so the learning process may be longer for them.
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Eh I don’t know, I think tunneling definitely affects newer survivors in a more harmful way than it affects newer killers in a good way. What is a new survivor supposed to do if they get tunneled off hook? It’s a terrible introduction to a game.
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Oh I agree and it sucks whether new or an old player. But it's not going to be any better for a new killer if they can never find anyone because they have no tracking perks or don't really know where to look for survivors at. Going back to the hook may often feel like the only option.
I do believe though that some of this could be helped with maybe a more thorough training guide. The one now does teach the basics but it could have maybe a beginner, intermediate and advanced training mode. Each one giving more blood points or shards maybe. Especially with how progressed they've made the ai bots it doesn't seem too farfetched.
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See, the slowdown meta also isn´t exactly good. Most slowdown perks are, as you say, a shadow of their former self. Yet killers still feel forced to use them if they want a decent match.
The nerf on DS was a bit to harsh. But then again, it was weaponized before that. Survivors hugged gens in the presence of the killer with DS active, knowing full well that the killer couldn´t pick them up. 5 seconds seems a good middle point, without going back to what it was before (unhealthy).
Just checked the screenshots of my last 10 matches (small sample i know) and my teammates had: DS x3 ,OtR x2 ,DH x2 ,MFT x6, WoO x15, Hope x3, Adrenaline x11, and Prove Thyself x8.
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For sure, and I definitely agree that the game could use more and better tutorials. There’s so much to the game that they don’t tell you as a new player.
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Yup that sounds about right. And I definitely agree that gen regress is also a shadow of what it used to be. Sucks that this game consistently seems to force meta perks for killers. I love running meme builds as killer but it sucks when you play against meta perks so often.
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This is a wrong way of thinking.
"To be able to play the game" for the short amount of time you can last while being hard tunneled does not make this any balanced, or fair, or fun, or a valid strat that shouldnt have some form of counter measure.
Considering how random the MMR can be in dbd, i wouldnt consider being outplayed because the killer hard tunneled a 100h dwight in 3 min and sent him to the lobby before he could touch a gen.
And even disregarding thr MMR issue, this is in the same way as telling "well, i totally outplayed the killer today because i got friend 1, 2 and 3 to use 4 BNP with me on a single gen and finish it in 5 sec. Oh, but the killer could totally move and play in those 5 seconds it took us to do a gen so this is totally part of the game and shouldnt be addressed in any way. If losing 5 gens in 3 min bothers you so much, maybe dbd... "
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I also love running meme or at least my own builds. I hope that we see a meta shake up soon. Because the last time was the most fun for me. Where everything felt fresh. With no meta established. No one judging, because i wasn´t using meta perks. Just fun.
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I did not comment on it being balanced or fair. I simply stated that being tunneled out of the game is still playing the game. If find being eliminated from a match is equal to not playing, then DBD isn't the game for you. DBD is an elimination game.
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I can't believe BHVR is too afraid to nerf tunneling!
Maybe if we get this bad boy to 10 pages, they will finally listen!
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I had to make an account just to respond to this. I was just tunneled and it really really sucks. :( Brand new to the game and am really shocked to see that this seems to be a normal thing..
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I am sorry for your bad exp but that's how survivor gameplay. Sadly devs are not listening.
They are making killer gameplay even easier with every new patch.
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I agree DS needs to go back to 5s stun however it’s hard for killers to win at high MMR without tunneling they shouldn’t be nerfing tunneling as that will hurt bad/high MMR killers way too much especially with how much slugging is nerfed with MFT/Buckle up etc. Tbh what they need is base kit regression for each survivors first hook, like pain res to promote fresh hooks instead of tunnels and before you say that would be too strong, I just want you to look at the state of gen rushing right now. Efficient survivors can have all gens popped extremely fast it’s disgusting.
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I didn't catch the original reply to someone else, so that's fair.
I checked the other reply, and that didn't address my comment about BT being 'basekit' already because everyone knew to bring it, nor did this quoted reply to me. The only fair argument I've seen is "Survivor's got 3 perk slots instead of 4", which I mentioned in my post that you didn't address. Also I would argue new BT isn't strictly better because the most egregious turbo tunnelers can still hit a Survivor with little to no difficulty even with 10% haste. But there is a fair argument to be made against 'bog standard M1 Killers' tunneling and BT buffing greatly against them.
Now if you are using the version of BT prior to 4.7.0, which only worked with the Killer's TR, then yes 4.7.0 'fixed' BT. I'm however talking about 6.1.0 specifically changing most things for the worse (although the basekit T1 Brutal and STBFL I think are fair buffs since it mostly helps 'bog standard M1 Killers', but not 90s gens without 65s or longer hook stages, as that buffed camping).
I disagree with the notion of having more agency when tunneled now. 'Basekit' BT gave Endurance for 12s, or (4*12) 48 normal meters, whereas truly basekit BT gives Endurance and Haste for 10% and 10s, or (4.4*10) 44 normal meters. That is less distance with less anti-tunnel capabilities to stack with it as well. The only change I think would be needed is anti-tunnel Endurance not Deep-Wounding Survivors. If they can stack that many forms of Endurance that are lost on doing a single CA, let them, just also remove collision during anti-tunnel Endurance so they can't bodyblock. I don't think any form of anti-tunnel Endurance has significant value while it can't be activated while Deep Wounded by any means (particularly the Pinhead add-on and Legion, for the worst of examples). It's easy to chase and hook anyone else, and with a hook rescuer there has to be someone else to chase. Heck, I'd even be fine with removing basekit BT/OTR on kobes if that was the case (maybe not removing it from Deliverance/Slippery Meat though, argument to be made).
TL:DR 6.1.0 buffed tunneling on average, as pre-6.1.0 it was 0-4 layers (realistically 1-4 as everyone would at least bring BT, if nothing else), and post-6.1.0 it is 1 and only 1. There is an argument to be made for in comparison to much further in the past (which is not what I'm arguing against), but when limiting the discussion to 6.1.0's changes, tunneling was buffed.
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So, first of all- Borrowed Time was a popular perk prior to 6.1.0, but you couldn't fairly call it "meaningfully basekit" unless you self-select only to the very top tier of players, and even then they didn't bring it all the time. The fact of the matter was that you were at the mercy of whether or not your random teammate thought to bring BT, and that's not a roll of the dice you were guaranteed to win whatsoever.
Second, prior to 6.1.0, Borrowed Time did not give Haste the way the basekit mechanic does. Even if you're hit immediately, you're operating with two degrees of a speed boost to get you far enough away from the killer that you're probably at a loop, and that's where you start having agency. That putting you in Deep Wound is definitely annoying, and I personally support changing that mechanic to not be true Endurance for that reason, but there's no way of conceptualising that as anything other than better than you would've been before 6.1.0. There's a difference here between "not perfect" and "meaningfully a buff to tunnelling", and we are very squarely in the first camp.
I went back and checked your original post to see where this idea of four layers of anti-tunnel came from, as there were only ever two and one of them wasn't in your control, and if you're going to count Dead Hard and the syringes as anti-tunnel then you must necessarily count every other perk that isn't actually anti-tunnel but might help you out while you're being tunnelled. How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
So, then, if what we had before was 0-2 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike) and a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled, what we have now is... 1-3 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Basekit Endurance + Haste guaranteed, then Borrowed Time to throw off killers waiting out the ten seconds and Off The Record's other two effects more than its Endurance) plus a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled.
Honestly, reading that back as I type it, I think we should acknowledge the other anti-tunnel tool that your teammates can bring, Guardian. Nobody does, I'm aware of that, but it is technically a potential source of anti-tunnel if we're counting Borrowed Time.
This is pretty clearly an objective improvement over where we were before, regarding tunnelling. The RNG is gone, you now cannot be downed immediately no matter what, and there are tools that can help mitigate how powerful tunnelling is. It's not perfect, and it could stand to be improved a lot, but that's not the argument we're discussing here- the argument I'm contesting is that tunnelling was buffed in 6.1.0. It wasn't. It was nerfed, albeit not by as much as it could've been.
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How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
the exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel. they are some of the most used perks in the game for exactly that reason. they help unconditionally both when you are getting tunneled off hook and in general chases. anti-tunnel just means it wastes the killer time often through extending chasing.
part of the reason why some people are upset at med-kit and coh healing changes is because it is easier to tunnel survivors that are vulnerable and injured. Just like how OTR grants endurence for an extra hit, healing gives extra hits making the killer spend more time in chases. DS was not only anti-tunnel perk. survivors always stacked anti-tunnel mechanics to maximize their survival chances. As a result of these second-chance stacking, there were series of changes to weaken second-chance stacking with DH+DS+fast healing which was old previous meta.
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Self-select to only top-tier - I dunno, I was trash back then (4.7.0 when the non-stealth countered BT was introduced), and I can tell you for sure it was at least 75% pick rate (or at least it felt like it). I do recall immediately pre-6.1.0 many people stopped equipping it, because they knew the basekit was on the horizon, and wanted to test out actually having 4 perks. It may have waxed and waned in-between that timeframe, but at least in my experiences it was essentially basekit (or the would-be rescuer would either bodyblock or stop the unhook and take chase). I don't know what happened in between 4.7.0-6.1.0, so I'll give you 50% of teammates run the perk, so we can claim it is half a layer on average.
Haste = Agency - I already did the comparison, 48m old (12s BT), 44m new(10s BT and 10% haste). Even with a post-hit speed boost if hit immediately off-hook, by the time the Killer catches up, you don't have haste, and heck, the Killer would catch up to you in the same meaningful timespan even if you don't have haste. That doesn't even account for bodyblocking loops/doorframes which can be done for 2s shorter now. You can definitely feel that if unhooked in basement. Also the Killer knows if the hook is a deadzone, so they can proc the Endurance early if it isn't, and wait it out if it is. Unless you are running Windows, you won't know if the Mikaela dropped every single pallet in that corner of the map, and you could run towards a normal pallet spawn only to see you downed yourself.
4 layers - I was showing the extremes of what could be used post-hook, but that is fair to discount DH. If someone were to use the superior SB, they couldn't have DH for anti-tunnel. Styptic and Syringe also I'll accept for the sake of argument to ignore/discount. I very much disagree with your assessment that we currently have 1-3 layers of anti-tunnel though. As I see it, if the Killer has a functioning brain, you have 1 layer, and 1 layer alone. The Killer had to injure you to down you in the majority of circumstances, so they know if you have Iron Will or not. Then if on unhook you are suddenly silent, you have OTR. They know to hit you off hook, negating all (or most, if you consider the silence/aura block helpful still) OTR value. Again, this is hindered by the broken mechanic of Deep Wound = no Endurance, which never should have been implemented. Even then, I'm not sure I would consider the Iron Will/Distortion effects of OTR strictly anti-tunnel as it doesn't help in the majority of circumstances, only niche edge cases (Aura add-ons, loops taller than the Killer where the Survivor can hold-W to make distance instead of playing the loop) and not the majority of tunneling scenarios.
Guardian - I like the idea, but not the execution. Guardian gets value when the Killer doesn't witness the unhook, and the Survivor is able to run away immediately post-unhook. Tunnelers tend to proxy-camp a bit, so that kills the first part, and if people heal, that kills the second part. Even if they run to a corner, the unhooker's scratch marks will still lead the Killer there.The timeframe is too short to be meaningful, and the unhooked Survivor doesn't even get the Killer aura read. I think 1 change would swap this from dog to god, and that would be making the unhooked Survivor full-on Spirit phasing invisible to the Killer for the timer (maybe silencing or disabling collision as well). That way the Killer has to hope they see a blade of grass move if they want to immediately tunnel off hook, even when they witness the rescue.
Also this one is minor, but I just remembered it. They dropped the post-injury speed boost from 2s->1.8s. That helps all the oppressive turbo-tunnelers disproportionately more than M1 Killers, so I'd think that might be better reverted as well. I thought basekit Brutal/STBFL T1 was good because it was mostly for M1s, the post-injury speed boost helps all Killers though, and that I take issue with.
I understand the objective minimum of anti-tunnel is higher, I am taking issue with the maximum also being reduced to the minimum. That is why I argue tunneling was buffed. Even not having DS and hopping into lockers could delay some Killers pre-6.1.0, so I'd say the average would even be higher before that patch without any perks in play.
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Ok but my shadowborne getting randomly yoinked would not be worth.
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The issue with Old DS was that the Survivor who was unhooked would intentionally get away. They would put the Killer in lose/lose situations, especially near/around the Exit Gates.
I think DS should deactivate when the Exit Gates are open (when EGC is active), not when they are powered, since the Killer can make the decision to open the Exit Gates to deactivate it, it also removes a lot of lose/lose situations.
I also think DS should at least provide a Haste effect after stunning the Killer with it, half of the stun duration is spent getting off the Killer's back.
The perk is a bit too weak in it's current state though, but old DS was a bit too much.
I think that tunneling specifically should be decentivized with perks, since tunneling at least creates interactions between the Killer and Survivor... meanwhile camping, camping should just be sent to the abyss, it's boring for both sides.
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I have been trying to use the DS perk everyone is talking about, but some of these Killers like that floating Nurse or that rushing Blight guy can just catch back up to me even if I manage to hit the hard skill check. It doesn't really give me enough time to escape some of these Killers.. :/
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Probably because they said tunneling (as camping) was a valid strategy.
What would you say if the devs nerfed doing gens in parallel or keeping working on a gen that's already partially repaired?
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i smell skill diff tbh
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Because kill rates will drop at least 10-15% then they'll have to spend months making all maps balanced and fair.
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Tunnelling is a strategy among others. Maybe people should get better at looping instead of always complaining. Most maps in the game still are largely survivor-sided btw.
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