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In Defence of Bloodlust
A relatively popular opinion on the forums and elsewhere is that Bloodlust is a mechanic that either should be removed right now, or only exists as a bandaid to bad map design and should therefore be removed as soon as maps are fixed. I disagree with both of those takes, and I thought I'd spend the time to write up a probably-too-long post explaining how I personally view Bloodlust and the value that I believe it brings to the game
Before I begin, however, I'd like to convey a caveat. I am not making any claims about developer intent here- I genuinely don't know whether anything I say here is something the dev team would agree with or support, and as far as I know the mechanic was initially introduced solely to combat infinites. The takes I'm about to present are more about the kind of value Bloodlust brings as a welcome side benefit, and what could be its main value going forward.
So, with that out of the way, there's one main point I'd like to hit here, though I'll acknowledge something I personally find less compelling first: Insurance against map RNG. It's no secret that a lot of maps aren't particularly well balanced, but I'd personally argue that a game like DBD is always going to be at risk of specific bad combinations happening either via oversights on map generation or the RNG just breaking. Bloodlust is a safety net against that, above and beyond just combating specific infinite loops, and that is a legitimate purpose for a mechanic.
Still, I am sympathetic to arguments that there are other ways of addressing that particular problem, so I'd prefer to focus on what I think Bloodlust does much better: Insuring against stale gameplay.
There are a handful of mechanics in this game that already do this, in their own way. There's the fact that (most) killers move faster than survivor running speed by default, there's the fact that windows are blocked by the entity if they're vaulted three times in one chase, there's the fact that half of the survivor's tools are temporary and can be broken by the killer... I am not going to make statements about dev intent, as I promised, but I feel confident in asserting that it's probably the case that survivors are meant to go down eventually, and that idea does make a lot of sense.
There's an argument that goes around saying that bad killers are gifted free value by Bloodlust, and that a survivor should be able to loop the killer indefinitely if they're better at chasing. I am sympathetic to the idea behind this argument, but in my opinion it misses something important. Rewarding player skill is important in any video game, no doubt about it, but equally important for multiplayer/PvP titles is that the match is not just balanced but healthy.
Let's look at a hypothetical here. Let's assume a match where Bloodlust doesn't exist, the killer struggles to catch the survivor they're chasing, and they also aren't aware enough to break chase and try for someone else. The result is that one survivor is chased for five generators, the exit gates are opened, and they sail through to a crushing loss for the killer. It'd be tempting to call that match balanced- after all, the better player was able to earn a victory not just for themselves, but for their whole team!
But, was that match healthy? I'd say no, of course not. Nobody was hooked, nobody was unhooked, nobody was healed... three players got to do nothing other than sit on generators, no macro decision making happened, half of the game's entire mechanics were completely ignored. From this perspective, something that nudges the trial towards moving forward so something else gets to happen would be much healthier, even if a player performing poorly has to be given a bit of a leg-up to get it done. It's important for the game's health that a survivor not last in chase indefinitely because that gameplay is stale for everyone but the survivor being chased- and even for them it'd get old eventually.
Not only that, but the entire theme of DBD is survivors doing their best to slip away from the clutches of a vastly superior foe. The thematic element may not be the most important element to consider, but it's hardly unimportant; the theming and aesthetics are what draw so many players in to begin with, after all. Thematically, as well, a survivor shouldn't last in chase indefinitely.
So then, we have thematic and health reasons why a survivor should eventually get hit by the killer even if they're exceedingly skilled at loops. It would stand to reason then that survivor skill expression should not be considered whether they can run the killer for five generators, but rather how long they can last before the inevitable while they're in chase, as well as all the non-chase related skill expressions that aren't relevant to this discussion.
If the survivor should eventually be hit by the killer, which I believe I've made a good case for, then Bloodlust is one of the mechanics that works towards ensuring that without being too potent, and I believe it does that well. It isn't guaranteed, and it takes long enough to build up that it isn't really giving the killer free value (as it's a mistake to assume that Bloodlust 1 kicking in means a hit happens immediately, and if the killer gets to Bloodlust 3 they've invested way too much time for that to be actual value), so it really only serves to be insurance against infinite loops, and insurance against maps stalling into only one chase happening at the expense of everything else. It provides texture and back-and-forth to trials that might otherwise lack them, while doing very little to impact trials that don't need it.
That last part is important, too. All the hypotheticals I've listed out are edge cases that this mechanic is insurance against, it won't be happening every trial even for unskilled players. It's simply a nudge to keep things on the rails, and players who are in any way close to skilled in this game already don't activate Bloodlust all that frequently because of the various actions that cancel it. It's a safety net, not a crutch; if you rely on Bloodlust, even just Bloodlust 1, to win every chase... you're gonna lose, but you'll lose in a trial where more happens than one survivor being chased, so it's a healthier match for everyone.
In short, Bloodlust is a mechanic that, intentionally or not, contributes to the suite of mechanics ensuring trials don't get stale or stall out. For that reason, I don't think it should be removed outright, not even if and when maps are brought up to a healthier state overall; it's only a positive for the game.
Comments
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I think that BL1 should stay, but BL2 and BL3 can go.
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I'd be more or less okay with that. I don't know how much those two tiers are actually helping lower-skilled players with bad map design, even.
Still, here I'm arguing more for the concept of Bloodlust rather than its absolute numbers and implementation.
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Good post. I agree with about all of it. The killer is supposed to be a feared, overpowering foe and yet survivors can lose them just by running circles around a car. You'd see this kind of thing in a comedy, not an horror movie about an omnipotent tentacle monster warping worlds and who organizes trials to see killers massacre survivors because it's soul food to it.
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Probably a lot, honestly.
The worst Killers I play against usually just refuse to break pallets and get BL2 or BL3 to get a hit.
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My issue with Bloodlust: all of the areas where it's ok come down to bad map design more or less, and it gives value for poor play elsewhere. The instances of Bloodlust 1 are correctable.
The instances of Bloodlust 2 and 3 are skill issues 99% of the time, and I think the genre needs to stop hyperfocusing on the power role aspect in those situations. If you take absurdly bad pathing, take corners like you're driving a semi truck, etc, I should make that window. We get so caught up in making sure the power role feels powerful. They can. Play the game well and bloodlust 2 and 3 will almost never happen. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was in 2 or 3 on killer.
Someone who is frequently in Bloodlust 2 or 3 is also not going to be winning games all that frequently. All that mechanic is doing is frustrating survivors who are playing well.
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what if bloodlust worked in reverse way. you start as bloodlust 3 when outside of a chase and bloodlust decays every 5 second when entering a chase.
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People love to call haste effects op (MfT mostly) but then they are okay with Bloodlust.
Bloodlust was needed when infinite loops was in game but this is not case anymore.
This outdated mechanic should be removed from game because we don't need it anymore.
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My point has a lot more to do with keeping trials from stalling out than it is being overly concerned with poor play. There's a line, obviously, but it's healthier for the game to give a nudge to poor players so the trial actually progresses in a way that isn't mind-numbingly boring than it is for the game to allow one chase to last five generators- even if that length would be earned on a strictly skill-focused level.
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I mean, I laid out a couple reasons I think it's a worthwhile mechanic. It's kinda the whole thing this post is about?
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I am just asking to removing this mechanic for forever. Most of maps are fine. If there is some problematic maps, they can be re-balance again.
I just don't love when killer abuses bloodlust on weak - mediocre loops when you outplay them with mind-games.
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That would be bad.
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why? Killer with low map traversal could traverse the map easier.
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Right, but my post is not about problematic maps. That isn't why I think Bloodlust is a good mechanic.
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This may be off-topic but I’d just like to get your opinion on this. You mentioned that looping for a 5-gen isn’t healthy overall but how is that in comparison to games that end abruptly for a survivor because of tunneling, camping, slugging, tombstone myers (which I’ve seen a lot of lately), etc.?
As a survivor, I can’t imagine giving up on a chase just because the killer is putting all their focus on me. Bloodlust will help that chase, but sometimes those games that go by without a single hook are due to bad gameplay and decision making on the killer’s part rather than anything in the game that’s broken. As a killer, I never tunnel or camp and know when to quit focusing on a specific survivor. On that note, there are times that it may seem like I camped or tunneled because the survivor/s simply made bad decisions or played poorly. This is true of me when I play survivor as well. Sometimes my game ends very early not because I was being tunneled or camped, etc. but because I made a terrible mistake or did something stupid.
Just to note, I am totally in favor of bloodlust, and I honestly believe a lot of the arguments we’ve seen against it lately is just people responding to the plethora of complaints about Made for This.
I guess my overall point is… there are plenty of things in this game that I believe aren’t “healthy” but that help one side get an advantage especially when they’re in a predicament ie infinite looping, tunneling…. So how do we balance between these things so one side isn’t favoring more from specific gameplay mechanics over the other without asking the other side to relinquish something?
For instance, bloodlust and window blocking exist not to help bad killers but to help them deal with looping which can be problematic - imo it does this without tipping things too far in the killer’s favor so that a skilled survivor can still gain an advantage without abusing the loop. So when it comes to something like tunneling, which I believe is an example of something that’s unhealthy, how do we create a mechanic to do what bloodlust does to combat at without denying killers their power?
I know I took this in a different direction - I just want to get some takes from people I believe are very level-headed.
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Because moving 130% guarantees an easy first hit on every Killer. It makes being injured at all a death sentence.
That's insanely busted.
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shouldn't being injured be scary?
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To be clear, I assume you're referring more to the accidental versions of tunnelling and camping via poor survivor gameplay? In the same way that killer's poor gameplay can make trials stall out, a survivor's poor gameplay could result in tunnelling or camping without the killer actively going out of their way to do it?
I'd say I don't think those two problems are necessarily on the same level, if so. When a survivor makes a poor decision, that's still giving their teammates and the killer more things to do in a general sense. If your teammate runs into the killer too soon, well, now you're doing something other than sticking on generators, because you have to go save them and then ideally take the killer's aggro. That's active gameplay, versus the five-gen-chase causing stagnant gameplay.
Similar for camping, if a survivor's making a mistake by looping around the hook, stuff is at least happening- though I do feel for the survivor left hanging there, of course. I like BHVR's proposed solution of giving the survivor Deliverance if they're stuck there too long, I think that would push things along in a way that doesn't completely neuter the killer.
If you are asking about intentional tunnelling and camping, my answer would be different, but I won't go into detail there so my response isn't too long lol
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I was actually referring to them more in a general sense. People can utilize it at 5 gens for an easier game or during endgame to almost guarantee they get a kill depending on the mechanics.
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It shouldn't be instant death, especially not with how bad healing is.
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Doubt that this will happen, given that the Devs quite recently buffed BL2 and BL3 (by reducing the time it takes to reach those Levels of Bloodlust).
Which was not really a good change and should not have happened, but hey...What do I know.
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Gotcha.
Well, they're definitely harder problems to fix, but I don't think it's completely impossible. It'd be best to start from the position that tunnelling, camping, and especially slugging should exist, but they should be legitimised and defanged as tools that killers can utilise, but that survivors can answer. We saw something close to that in 6.1.0, when the most egregious form of tunnelling in the game was removed and survivors started having more agency in those chases, but I do think it could be improved further. I'd probably look in the direction of either converting the basekit Endurance into something similar to the Mettle of Man effect, or just replacing it outright with a lack of collision, ensuring a killer can chase them if they want to but there'd be no shortcuts to circumvent either the basekit protection or any anti-tunnel perks that are in play.
For camping, I like the devs' idea, as I said! I'm gonna hold out on commenting too much on camping until after we've seen that system in action, because I like the broad idea but I don't know enough specifics to finetune or critique it.
Slugging I think is closest to where the balance should be for tactics like this. If one person's being slugged, the team can respond to that without requiring the use of perks or even really all that much coordination, but there are still plenty of anti-slugging perks that survivors could bring if they want the extra oomph. There's some edge cases like bleeding everyone out for four minutes, which I'm not sure how to fix, but slugging overall isn't in too bad of a spot.
Tombstone Piece has just gotta go, lol. It's too strong, there's no justifying it. I would like to see that happen as part of a wider Myers overhaul to bring him more in line with modern killers, but if it has to happen first I wouldn't complain. It's busted.
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wraith and blight both have huge speed that they can use before the chase. wraith is labeled as not strong and blight is loved by killer players for his ability to counter shift-w before chase and use his mobility in chase to get downs. you make sound these killer's are busted with how you describe the mechanic.
Healing still looks pretty rewarding. it is just difficult to heal in a lot of cases in my opinion.
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Wraith has some form of a warning before he smacks you (but he's still very strong in this current meta) and Blight is literally the strongest Killer in the game. Healing would be REQUIRED and considering how self-healing is almost non-viable and team healing is pretty risky, this is a horrid suggestion.
With your suggestions, Blight would be moving at 260% ms and Wraith at 180% ms without any add-ons. With add-ons Wraith would move almost 200% ms and Blight would be chilling at 300% ms on his final Rush.
This suggestion does not work.
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Then the killer would either get unfair hits before a survivor has any chance to make it to a loop, or the killer is punished even more for terrible map design than they are now. Either way it would be frustrating. That would also result in killers moonwalking to start a chase as late as possible.
Edit: Actually, do it BHVR! I want to see moonwalking Myers be a viable strategy!
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Expecting people to read the OP is mistake #1 on the forums.
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They say the definition of insanity, etcetera...
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bloodlust does not work when you use your ability. i am talking about bloodlust for m1 killers. you seem opposed to BL3 but you said bloodlust 1 is fine. this is just a throw away idea. I think bloodlust 3 is neccassary in case there are infinity loops in a map though I doubt that current version is ever used for infinities. if anything the infinity window loops and god pallets counter bloodlust. not the other way around. I use BL1 and sometimes use BL2/BL3 for free hits/tunneling purposes. Most of survivor are not good loopers so you do not really hit higher tier of bloodlust unless your opponent is a spectacular looper.
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basically just agree with most ppl in this thread and i think bl1 is good. It serves as a buff to m1 killers with no real chase powers.
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Bloodlust is still needed because there are still certain loops in the game that are just too strong for survivor. Yes, when those are fixed you can remove bloodlust but they're never going to be fixed. BHVR has shown they can't make balanced maps anymore and even when they 'fix' maps they can still remain in a bad state. They release new maps that are badly designed so how could they 'fix' a map that has issues they clearly can't see.
Regarding Bloodlust 2 and 3, I can understand the arguement to remove them more. If you -need- to get into BL2 or 3 to be able to catch survivors than you're going against survivors who are well above your skill level. Unfortunatly matchmaking in this game is garbage and semi-decent killers frequently get matched against really good loopers. Without the higher tiers of bloodlust they'd be unable to get a single hook in many of these games, and that's just a terrible feeling.
Bloodlust 2 and 3 existing isn't going to mean the killer will win these games, they wont, because chases will take far too long and the gens will pop in no time. However, if it gives them a couple more hooks or a single kill that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to get, I see it as the killer's version of hatch. It takes some of the sting out of getting stomped.
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Without the higher tiers of bloodlust they'd be unable to get a single hook in many of these games, and that's just a terrible feeling.
With BL2 or BL3, it's possible they can win and that would raise their MMR, causing more frequent bad matches. Sounds horrible, but you kind of want them to lose so that they at least have a better chance of a fair match.
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It's a game? You realize people become desensitized to things once they've dealt with it over and over again.
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I agree with OP wholeheartedly. Over a long enough chase, the killer should always catch the survivor. It doesn’t mean the survivor shouldn’t be able to delay that long enough to where a skilled killer will bail and go chase someone else.
And yes, there are still true infinites in the game. The SM base in Sheltered Woods can spawn at least one if not two.
(Also for the both-sidesers: I think Made for This is fine).
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...show me?
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You’re not my dad.
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I figured asking for proof of a real infinite in 2023 wasn't a big deal.
You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
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I don’t particularly enjoy people curtly demanding things of me.
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That's a question mark. It's used to denote a question, not a demand nor a statement nor an exclamation.
Any demand you saw was something entirely on your end.
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Eh, if they're relying on BL2 or 3 for many of their downs, I can't see them 'winning' many of their matches. I don't deny it could certainly be the difference between a win and a loss if it helps them get a crucial down at the right time, but if it's something they routinely need, the survivors have plenty of time to do gens. Certainly doubt they're gonna be getting a 3k or 4k in that scenario.
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I like the concept of bloodlust, the longer you are in chase the more dangerous it becomes.
Its the incentive to escape from the chase rather than prolong it.
Because lets face it chasing a survivor trying to escape from you is infinitely different from chasing one trying to bait you into sinking more time into them.
When I lose a crafty survivor I'm like "whoa what happened", when I chase a survivor around the same pallet loop 3 times till they are hit/down I just yawn.
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There shouldn't be a "In defence of bloodlust".
This conversation was sparked because of the introduction of MFT....
MFT and Bloodlust are not comparable. Bloodlust is for when you have trouble downing a survivor, MFT is for when you want to extend chase.
Quite literally the polar opposites.
ALSO: bloodlust is lost when you hit a survivor or break pallet. So if bloodlust happens, a survivor can just loop a really strong pallet and break bloodlust.
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There are still some horrid rngs. Like MacMillan estates one map i got 3 windows that lead right into eachother with safe pallets to add to the mix. The killer literally just never followed me there because he knew what would happen if he did. And coldwinds connected tiles...exist.
Post edited by supersonic853 on0 -
This opinion has been around a lot longer than MFT, I'm not directly responding to that comparison. If I were, I'd have been talking about that comparison, lol.
This is about the wider opinion, and why I've disagreed with it for longer than MFT has existed.
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