We need to talk about Skull Merchant
Comments
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your asking them to weaken a 6 year old perk. doctor already exposed this problem a long time ago. people just forgot about it. I also forgot that they did nerf it. it is no longer 15%. it is 14%. it got weakened by 1% from 6.7.0 patch. Like I said, skull merchant is just modern version of hostage doctor that people used to complain about.
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Thank you :D
I don't think it's against the rules, but if anyone DOES get in trouble for it, it should be me because I asked for it.
Don't worry I won't hate on anyone in that game haha.
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I will warn you, it is literally fifty minutes long.
Also, KnightLight and this guy do not like each other. They have some drama or something.
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That's ok. I needed an excuse to not study today haha.
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I am sorry to the people that play her, but she is not healthy for the game by any means. There’s no gameplay for both sides and it takes no time to actually master her. She either needs to get removed or completely reworked.
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Uh yea its a SKILLcheck.......I would expect the top surv players to not care for it since they have been playing the game on a comp level
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Well it was made to counter tap the gen playstyle
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Remove cant be done for obvious reasons and reworking her will end her up in the bottom barrel with Trapper, Freddy, and Sadako
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Clearly, you need to adjust your view.
If the best Survivors in the world are having trouble, evidently its a big deal.
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She already is bottom tier.
Her ability to hold games hostage is just disguising that
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Oh yea here is my view....
Comp teams shouldnt exist in a game like dbd where it is mostly decided on RNG
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If shes so bottom tier lets buff her drones then or better yet make her drones chase surv and instantly kill them. Thats a great rework.
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Yes I 100% agree with you. I a solo queue player have gone up against a three gen SM every time I have gone up against her I almost quit the game when she came out but thankfully I have gone up against her much less. It is almost impossible to counter in solo queue. While she doesn't have to be used in that way it does seem to still be a popular strategy. What I noticed is that some killers just sit afk until there is 2 gens left and the go full three gen mode. She absolutely needs the killswitched until they fix this problem.
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And here I thought I might get a genuine conversation.
Shame on me for expecting anything
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lol
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Ok so I watched the entire match. Firstly do yourself a favour and don't watch it, it's just 50 minutes of gen kicking. I will summarise most of it so everyone is up to speed on this video without having to spend 50 minutes watching it like I did. Some info people are sharing in this thread is incorrect as well.
THIS IS LONG! THERE IS A TL;DR AT THE BOTTOM!
First some points to set the scene of the match:
- This was a custom game. Skull Merchant and the survivors both agreed to this match and it appeared to be comp rules (only 1 of each item and perk). This was not a random lobby game.
- Skull Merchant's build was Overcharge, Eruption, Sloppy, Oppression. Add ons were Shotgun Speaker (silent skill checks) and Brown Noise Generator (oblivious when in a drone).
- The map was Torment Creek
- The killer was playing for the 1 hour mark to end the game. They had no intention of sacrificing survivors with hooks.
- Hens was spectating so you can probably expect a good summary from him soon
How the game went:
- Skull Merchant found a really strong 3 gen at the start and set up around it. They had the option for a 4 gen, but they didn't want to go for it.
- Eternal began repairing 4 gens outside of the 3 gen and finished them within a few minutes.
- During this time, Skull Merchant actually was not guarding the 3 gen until it was just those 3. However, they were checking the radar constantly. They mainly just sort of walked around aimlessly for the first 4 gens and broke some pallets.
- One survivor had Potential Energy, but didn't use it. I'm unsure if they just didn't get the opportunity to use it or if they put it into a different gen. I don't know as it's hard to judge without the survivors POV (I will not be watching that if there is)
- Once it was down to one gen, the killer proceeded to kick gens as often as possible and never chased further than a single hit. They got multiple downs, but only because the survivors were injured or exposed for the entire game.
- The killer kept replacing the drones every few seconds so the survivors never got a chance to hack them. Even if they did, the killer just pushed them off as he was always nearby.
- They slugged almost everyone they downed. They only really hooked when people were in lockers.
- For the first half or so, only 3 survivors were on gens. I'm not sure what the Adam player was doing, but they weren't working on a gen for a very long time and instead were hanging out around the Ace outside the drones area. I'm not sure if he was calling out Skully's location or if he was trying to act as a body guard to take hits maybe, but they weren't on gens for a long time.
- Once Adam did start working on a gen and they started working on all 3 gens, the Skull Merchant struggled and they repaired the last gen. THIS STILL TOOK OVER 20 MINUTES THOUGH!!!!!
- All 4 survivors escaped.
Now something I've seen in this thread is some people saying the killer applied Overcharge 42 times and some saying that the survivors missed 42 times. I can assure that BOTH are wrong.
- I lost count towards the end, but the Skull Merchant kicked gens over 110 TIMES!
- The survivors missed 54 skill checks from what I counted. Now notice I didn't mention Overcharge skill checks. That's because a LOT of these skill checks weren't from Overcharge. Because they couldn't hear skill check sounds they missed a fair amount of normal and Oppression skill checks. And a few were from when they ran off and a skill check just appeared. I don't know the amount of Overcharge skill checks, and it's nearly impossible to know unless we see the survivors POV.
- I don't know if this was actually the correct amount, but this is what I counted. Hard to keep track when the killer keeps saying the wrong number haha
So my impressions from this:
- Skull Merchant needs a rework. Whether Eternal played perfectly or not is irrelevant. This took 50 minutes for the best team in the world to win and they only did so because they had really good communication (and no one DCed). A 50 minute game should not possible simply by kicking gens.
- The part that stuck out to me the most was how she has no cool down to placing drones, allowing her to reset them instantly without having to worry about them being hacked. If the survivors had the chance to hack the drones this might have been a shorter game, but because the killer just replaced them every few seconds, there never was a chance to hack them.
- This wouldn't have been possible (or as easy) with any other killer. This took so long because the killer could see everyone with killer instinct the entire game, they were all one shottable, and they were oblivious so they had to leave earlier.
- Overcharge is fine. The only reason Eternal missed so many skill checks is because the killer had the silent skill check add on and they had to constantly run off early because they couldn't hear the terror radius. Any other killer this perk wouldn't have gotten nearly as much value. They hit most of the Overcharge skill checks and probably would have hit nearly all of them had it not been for the silentness and the fact that they were all one shot. And a normal killer isn't going to be kicking gens 110 times...
- Also a lot of the Overcharge misses were when the gens had next to 0 progress, so they didn't actually lose anything. The killer already knew they were there as well because of the infinite killer instinct on everyone.
- I think the killer actually could've had a better chance at winning if they hook the survivors. So many times they knew all gens were at 0 but they still slugged because they wanted the time out win.
So yeah this was long.
TL;DR
- Skull Merchant needs a rework.
- Overcharge is fine, it was Skull Merchant and her add ons that made it a problem.
- Any other team would've lost. Next to impossible to win against this in solo queue.
- This was a waste of time.
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Yeah overcharge is a difficult skill check but that’s the point and I’ve hit it plenty of times and I don’t claim to be a great player.
For the record I never said the killer was good, I said good on them for holding a highly skilled team at bay for as long as they did. Moreso if the lack of tournament experience is as you describe. I’d have probably lost out on that long before the 50 min mark.
Good on the team for breaking the 3 gen and winning in the end too. it looks like the greater experience won out in the end as what people are describing the killer got cocky and then sloppy as a result.
So like all competitive success it’s a combination of skill full play and human error on both sides.
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I understand that the point of Overcharge is the skill check, but it can be a BS skillcheck if RNG decides to ######### you.
A meh pub player shouldn't be able to hold the best team in the world for 50 minutes.
If you flipped the situation, more people would be freaking out. 4 pub Survivors with no meta perks escape from KnightLight on Nurse with full meta in a 4 minute game? oh yeah, people would be losing their minds.
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I don't think that's a fair comparison. In this game, the killer lost and the survivors weren't running full meta. The comparison would work if the Nurse still won but then you'd just get "but they still won anyway so who cares!" comments, so no, I don't think people would be freaking out.
I think the main reason people aren't really taking this thread or match seriously is because it's been derailed about Overcharge discussion. Skull Merchant is an issue and this match perfectly shows why she is, but Overcharge is fine as it is. If the OP didn't add that edit I don't think thread would be as controversial.
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If the SM were the best of pubs, she probably would have won.
If they have a rematch in 1000 hours, assuming SM doesn't get changed, I think she'd win.
The only reason she lost was because of her inexperience, imo.
As for Overcharge, I've never liked the skillcheck, always felt like Old Ruin to me. But I agree, the main issue here is SM.
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A lil RNG is not a terrible thing though.
It creates the unpredictable and risky nature that fits into DBD. Is the regression too much maybe when stuck in a 3 gen scenario. But the skill check itself is fine.
As I said skull merchant needs some tweaks but how’d “the best team in the world” get stuck in a 3 gen in the first place against an m1 killer. The killer setting up for a 3 gen should have been obvious to them. Break it early before they get the 3 gen and hyper focus on it.
1 Change SK could use are drone cooldown so you can’t just spam new drones. At least there is more opportunity to hack them.
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God bless Team Eternal for holding a skull merchant hostage for 50 minutes to prevent anyone else from getting queued into them.
That's crazy though - 50 minutes. Most of my games against SM most people tap out 5 minutes in because they don't want to bother.
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Yeah, it was obvious.
SM spawned in, and as they do, found 3-gens and never left them. For FIFTY MINUTES.
The best team in the world couldn't break her 3-gen for that long KNOWING what she was gonna do. The SM is an average player, they have a TON of potential left to realize. What hope does Solo Q or the average Survivor have against an average SM?
Little.
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Yeah I agree. Even if he just didn't play for the 1 hour mark he could've won. Many times someone was in a bad position and he could've downed them in a couple seconds easily, but he chose to kick the gen at 5% instead.
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At this point I would even be mad, if they nerfed Overcharge again. The perk is worse than before it's buff in 6.1.0 and can only really do something, if used to 3 gen. On a killer that already is good at it. Kill an already dead perk again. Won't make much of a difference for most people anyway.
I haven't seen the game yet and unfortunately couldn't find a link on Knightlight's twitter but this should be enough to warrant extreme measures for BHVR. If a top tier competitive team cannot win a match against this killer in under 50 minutes, then we have a real problem. Nobody wants to either be stuck in a game for 50 minutes or be forced to give up.
Dull Merchant is a problem, that needs to be dealt with. Either BHVR killswitch and rework her or they go to more extreme measures and remove her altogether but something needs to be done.
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I linked the stream at the top of this page.
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Thanks.
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I think the server should close sooner then an hour, maybe 30-40 minutes and if the survivors are still alive they should auto escape and win.
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According to this thread Skull Merchant is the best Killer in the game, can beat any team, right?
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Uh, no. This implies it is only the Killer's fault that these long games happen. If the Survivors are the ones at fault for creating a 3 gen, you can bet I am going to stand my ground and defend it as hard as I can. Survivors 3-genning themselves is usually the result of poorly planned gen rushing. Yeah, I could let them finish it so you can say I am the one holding them hostage, but why should I lose because of their carelessness?
Also Killers can't hide and purposely drag a game on to win, Survivors would be able to with such a short time limit.
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I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. The 3 gen is there whether there are 5 gens remaining or 1 gen remaining. If you attack that 3 gen early, the killer just sits on that 3 gen for the same amount of time and the match times out because you still need to get the other gens after finally breaking the 3 gen.
Let's say Eternal spent the first 50 minutes of the match trying to break that 3 gen in the corner. It literally plays out the same. The killer sits on it because that's where everyone is. It takes 50 minutes. Then they still have to do the other 4 gens with 10 minutes to go. They're in a worse position than they would be if they just do the gens the killer is giving them at the start.
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Nobody has said that.
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Survivors could spend 40min to break a 3 Gen early instead of complete 4 other Gens (assume complete 1 / 5 Gens). Then killer just pick another 3 Gens of the 6 remaining one. Repeat until server closes.
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That is no guarantee at all. Reworking her power into something different opens up many possibilities. All we know is that she needs it badly.
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I played against 4 Skull Merchants this morning.
I would like to take the time to apologize to the DBD Gods and Developers for any wrong I’ve done to deserve such a punishment.
I have been playing this game since it’s beta. I’ve taken a lot of breaks, but I come back now and then.
It is quite concerning that Behaviour cleared this character into the game. You can’t be upset at the players, people will always take the easiest way to reach their destination. It’s on Behaviour to recognize this character needs a complete rework.
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Well now I’m confused on their Perk/Power ideology given that Skull Merchants addons impact skillchecks generated by Perks.
While the RNG of the Overcharge skillcheck is where its position is, the 1s delay is enough warning to prepare to try and hit even the closest one. This should be anticipated in the event that the generator looks to be regressing against a Killer using it, even in the event that the skill-check notification is suppressed due to her Shotgun Speakers addon. However I can see the annoyance in repeated application in quick succession when the last generators are only in a small zone. Could warrant a cooldown.
However her Oppression skillcheck isn’t predictable when under the effect of the Shotgun Speakers Addon.
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Oppression has an 80s cooldown and only regresses 10%. Overcharge has infinite uses and regresses as much as old Pain Res.
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Exactly. They need to have some serious conversations internally about how this killer came to fruition.
I absolutely understand not wanting to take your work home with you. The last thing I want to do is do my 9-5 in my free time. But if the people designing killer powers don't have enough experience in the game to immediately see how problematic Skull Merchant's power is during development, that's a problem.
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She is the worst killer to go against. You can win against a SM. But it's certainly not going to be an enjoyable match.
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lol the replies
Post edited by Mtom912 on0 -
A killer who can win against almost any SWF? Sign me up!
Nah she is too boring to play in that way. Even worse to play against.
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I would make one adjustment to that statement - she is oppressive and unhealthy when played in a particular playstyle (3-gen). When played otherwise, she's fine.
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Rule of Cool usually trumps good gameplay design sadly.
This isn't a dbd only issue either, a lot of devs struggle with this once a game hits a certain point in its lifecycle due to the expansive nature of live-service games and the dwindling inspiration one can use.
Leads to a Jurassic Park style of game development where things are made just to be epic and broadly appealing with little regard to game health and longevity, if it sticks it sticks (Wesker) but if it doesn't it gets nerfed/neglected into obscurity while they work on the next Big Thing.
Would not be surprised at all if Skull Merchant get's Hibilly'd and biggest chunk of her playerbase who only plays her to win drops her and we see her fall to Hag-tier popularity.
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but you never explained why she is an issue. you just said, "she is an issue". I explained why overcharge and regressing generator is a problem in 3 gens. my explanation is that killer can regress generator effectively such that they are doing 1000% regression in a match which means that survivor have to do 10+ gens to escape. that is why it can take long time to escape.
The other issue behind 3 gens is the maps. 3 gen spawn next to each other in a corner of the map like torment creek is a problem. there is too short of distance for a killer to walk around kicking gens. survivor cannot yoyo effectively to break 3 gen-locks when gens are in the corner of the map like that.
I watched the game. I do not want to say anything about builds but there is a build for skull merchant that allows you to beat eternal-type survivors. that build is overcharge, eruption, play with your food and sbtfl. the idea is that you go around hitting survivors for 10+ minutes until you hit 8 stacks of stbfl then once you hit 8 stacks stbfl. you find obsession which skull merchant found plenty of times in that 50 minute match. you charge 3 tokens of pwyf with her arm-traps and then you use stbfl+3 stack of pwyf to machine gun 1 survivor. Dan for example in that game was on death hook. If skull merchant had these perks instead of sloppy and 80 second oppression, then skull merchant could go super fast and tunnel Dan out of the game to create 3vs1. You do the same thing over and over till you kill entire team and you use the overcharge+eruption to regress gens through skill-checks and eruption proc's.
that is how you win with 3 gen strategy with an m1 killer like skull merchant. every single killer can 3 gen like that. all killer's can sit around and kick gens for 30+ minutes. The stronger killer do not need those plaster-fix anti-shift w plaster fix perks.
for example Blight can do that exact same 3 gen but he can just run 4 gen perks such as..... cob, overcharge, eruption, oppression. I think there is even add-on for that 3 gen gameplay. I believe add-on is purple add-on called soul chemical that just add overcharge checks when blight bouces near a gen. 3 gen gameplay is not exclusive to skull merchant at all. every single killer can 3 gen. the higher tier killer is, the more powerful they are at 3 gens. This is just in general. It is possible that a killer is low tier and can 3 gen but higher tier killer should win 3 gens more often. If blight was doing that exact 3 gen, he would likely win.
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A top team lost the game.
What is the problem?
The team that has made a mockery of countless killers lost.
They say that if the top team lost then other people don't stand a chance.
The reality is that that team proves that the game has a serious imbalance and is completely in favor of the survivors.
there is no problem with the SM, there are very few people who use it.
There are many killers the probability of facing a SM is very low.
And yet there are SM who do not know how to use drones.
I play the 2 rolls and in solo Q I have beaten the SM and also in premade.
The SM is not broken, it just forces survis to play smart and give hooks early in the game to break the 3gen. If they do it and break the 3gen the SM will have lost the game.
The SM has no potential in chase, if at least 3 survs steal drons then she loses a lot of her potential to take care of 3gen.
Don't tell me she is invincible, because you are afraid to play properly.
What is really worrying is that there is a team with more than 550 wins.
The perks they use should be analyzed and the necessary nerfs should be applied.
It is more probably to face that team that abuses resources and tools than to face the SM that defeated them.
In short, if you can't take on a SM, you just don't know how to play and that's your problem and not the others.
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Saying the best players in the world "don't know how to play" is certainly a take
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Funny enough, I’ve gone against them a couple times as killer in pubs and they’d say how they dog walked me even though I 4k3’d them. They had terrible pathing and looping. When I saw them trash talking KnightLight and agreed to vsing Eternal, I knew it’d be a walk in the park.
If you can’t beat pub players, then you for sure ain’t gonna beat the best comp team. Happy Eternal beat them so maybe, hopefully, they do something with that ego.
edit: not only that, but they are toxic and racist so it was deserved
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JFC, some of y’all completely ignore what the actual problem with the killer is. The problem isn’t the fact that the best team can be beaten, the problem is the fact that SM can hold a game for almost a whole HOUR against the best team even with amazing coordination. Imagine what your average solo queue team has to go through going against something like this.
It’s miserable for everyone unless you’re the killer and enjoy kicking gens, placing drones near gens, and not doing anything productive the whole match. There’s nothing interesting here and that isn’t a subjective take.
If you genuinely think SM isn’t a problem, then idk what to say.
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Its delusion and tribalism making people think that SM getting changed/reworked is yet another "loss" for killer players and another "win" for survivor players. Some people fail to grasp the broader scope of health for this game, there's not really a point arguing with people like that because you can't really force a change of perspective, its just a conclusion they either come to themselves or they won't.
I think what I want is just a dev response to this issue that's more than just "we are aware," I'd like official confirmation that the killer's design is defunct and will be seeing substantial changes, even if its not in the near future.
I think that would put a stop to everyone trying to get their attention with countless discussion about SM.
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