Nurse is still very problematic killer
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I am not good with her. Not at all! Which is the reason I shouldn't be able to load into a lobby with people that know what they are doing with a somewhat ok-ish build (BBQ, Lethal, Shadowborn, Agitation) and win a majority of my games with little to no trouble.
I am not condescending. I am saying, that the killer you play objectively lacks real counterplay and that your performance in a match solely depends on you. The survivors do not matter. If you play good enough then anything they do is wrong and will result in them getting hit. And so far, I haven't even said anything about her second blink, which can bail her out even after making a missplay.
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And I’m saying that’s objectively false. As Nurse I play against survivors who know how to mindgame her. The trouble is that most don’t do this and are essentially free hooks
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Make Spasmodic Breath basekit.
Nurse is now nerfed and fun to play against IMO.
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Thats a bad example. The survivor is not an m1 killer at shack versing nurse, there are ways to avoid hits. A little thing called mindgames. Thats the skill of dbd and thats all you get to use against a nurse. it goes both ways, whoever outplays the other comes out on top. People only think nurse is op because she requires you to completely relearn dbd to counter her, and the majority of players just cant do that or havent tried to. So when they lose against nurse they just go "what am I even supposed to do" because they have no idea what they were supposed to do. Its only natural to feel cheated when you dont understand how to counter someone who just flies through walls. But the counterplay is there, it is consistent and it only fails if the nurse is better than you at dbd. If shes better at mindgaming you and reading your movements then you are hers then you are done for. Thats not overpowered, thats a difference in skill.
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THANK YOU. People here would rather pretend that memorizing loops and predropping pallets is skill. It tells you something about the community when they flip out about one of the only killers that skill matters against.
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Thats the main reason I like nurse. Probably a controversial take but I think current nurse is the most fun killer to face if you understand her well. I find typical survivor looping kind of boring without something like managing an SB to make it more interactive, and facing a nurse takes the interactivity of dbd (mindgames) and cranks it to the max. just super fun gameplay.
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I hate this take. Great, the almighty "overpowered" nurse only has a power for half the chase now. Soooooo much fun. So much skill expression.
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Those survivors most definitely do not know what their doing. As a former nurse main (played for probably 300 hours) survivors who ACTUALLY understand nurse can counter her just as well as any killer. Survivors who understand DBD dont necessarily understand nurse, those players are rare. Thats why people think shes op to begin with, because nobody knows the counterplay or is too lazy to learn. Easier to cry "broken!" than become a better player.
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I understand the hate and very much consider it a hot take. It is fun going against though, in fact I'd say Spasmodic Breath Nurse is funner then any other type of Nurse, even a bad one.
It's kind of like a reverse Oni. You could obviously tweak the numbers so it's only like 30's and give her something small for chase but I think it'd be a great way to nerf Nurse while still keeping her kit basically the same.
As is, her power is way too strong for what little downsides it has.
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Map Mobility - First off, I thought spamming max range single blinks was better than double blinks? 2s charge@2.89, 1.5s@13.33 or 20m total blink, fatigue for 2s @.96. Since you recover charges during the fatigue, and the 2s charge recovery is equal to the 2s fatigue, you stay at full charges permanently. Now you travel at 2.89+2.89+96+.96+20 over 5.5s, or 27.7m/5.5s, or ~5.03 m/s. That is basically permanent Bloodlust 2 on an M1 Killer, and that isn't even taking into consideration that the Nurse can cut corners and blink through walls. There is a level of human error, but I'll just say corner cutting and human error even out for sake of argument. She still has 5m/s map mobility, far and above most.
I disagree with the other points, but I don't know how to persuade you on them. The rock-hard math of Map Mobility is indisputable though. By my count she is better than ~18-21 Killers at Map Mobility (based on whether you consider Singularity/Hag/Pinhead teleports that are in the hands of the Survivors (for the most part) Map Mobility, and I might have skipped/double counted one or two of them).
Disabling charge recovery during fatigue would do well to help balance her out, and would drop the map mobility speed from ~5m/s to 4.72m/s (27.7m/5.5s + 3.85+3.85+2s, 35.4m/7.5s)
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I calculated for spamming max range single blinks. I start the counter from beginning to charge until you have regained that charge. So basically charge up+blink+post blink buffer+fatigue+time to charge= about 33m of distance travelled. I got my estimate on the overall speed average by dividing the distance time it took from start to finish. You math is very good, however there is one flaw. Nurses blink recharge time is 3 seconds, not 2. It takes 1 full extra second to recharge that blink than in your calculations. i believe its that discrepancy that led to our differing results. Your overall distance was about 27m per cycle while mine was 33.
if we look at how that extra second affects out time I think we'll see the difference. After the fatigue from the blink, you would not be charging up since nurses wait until they have full charges. Combine that with the additional charge time and I think we'd have a similar number to my 33m.
Also, I think you miscalculated how much time a cycle takes. 2s to charge a blink, 1.5 to travel it, 1.5s between blink and fatigue, 2s of fatigue, and then the additional second from the cooldown. 2+2+1.5+1.5+1=8. I think you forgot about that time between the blink and the fatigue. I'll do the math one more time just to make sure i didnt make any errors:
Nurse begins charging the blink. She moves at 2.89 for 2s. 5.78m of distance covered, 2s of time.
Nurse blinks at 13.333m/s for 1.5s. Roughly 20m of distance. 25.78m, 3.5s of time
Nurse is now in the chain blink window for 1.5s, moving at 1.16m/s. This covers 1.74m. 27.52m covered, 5s of time.
Nurse has now entered fatigue for 2s moving at 0.96m/s. Thats 1.92m. 29.44m over 7s of time.
Finally, nurse spends the remaining 1 seconds of her 3 second cooldown walking at 3.85m/s. We arrive at 33.29m of distance over 8s. 33.29/8 = 4.16125. Rounding up, thats an effective 4.16m/s as I calculated.
You forgot to factor in the chain blink window duration and that her cooldown is 3 seconds, not 2. granted like you said this math doesnt factor in the fact she goes through walls and floors. on a map like RPD for example, her mobility is much stronger. While on something like macmillan, her only saving grace is just how powerful her chase is. And luckily on maps like RPD her chase is wayyyy weaker. Except midwich, we need to kill midwich.
In my experience at least nurse has lots of counterplay in the form of mindgames and LOS breaks. Since shes reliant solely on mindgames and mechanical skill, if you go down to her then she played better. I think the core issue is far more with the majority playerbase either not understanding her counterplay or just not being dedicated enough to learn it.
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if I can do it, anyone can.
genrush...is still a problem.
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To be fair nothings better than an M1 nurse. So goofy. Wouldnt be goofy basekit though, she'd just go from nurse to sadako then back to nurse over and over. I could imagine her sloppy addon being a must, needing to get people injured so you can down them with blinks.
I dislike the idea of a reverse oni, because that would punish the killer for playing well. Oni gives amazing players a short but powerful burst in lethality that can turn the tide of a match. A reverse oni, like this example, would strip players of their power for using it correctly.
I disagree, the downside is her map mobility. i know that sounds crazy but overall her map mobility is the weakest in the game, excluding maps like RPD. But luckily for you RPD is one of nurses worst maps. All these times and speeds come straight from the wiki. This math will measure a "Cycle"s effect movement speed. A cycle is from the start of her charging the blink to her regaining that charge again, since nurse players blink once and then wait for it to come back since thats most efficient.
Nurse begins charging the blink. She moves at 2.89 for 2s. 5.78m of distance covered, 2s of time.
Nurse blinks at 13.333m/s for 1.5s. Roughly 20m of distance. 25.78m, 3.5s of time
Nurse is now in the chain blink window for 1.5s, moving at 1.16m/s. This covers 1.74m. 27.52m covered, 5s of time.
Nurse has now entered fatigue for 2s moving at 0.96m/s. Thats 1.92m. 29.44m over 7s of time.
Finally, nurse spends the remaining 1 seconds of her 3 second cooldown walking at 3.85m/s. We arrive at 33.29m of distance over 8s. 33.29/8 = 4.16125. Rounding up, thats an effective 4.16m/s. The weakest mobility in dbd by far. To be clear this measures map traversal speed. The math is to point out that the time it takes for nurse to complete a cycle would be equal to a killer moving at 4.16 in the same time. As long as nurse needs to complete one full cycle to get where shes going at the very least then this math applies. it doesnt apply in chase for obvious reasons.
Nurse trades horrendous map traversal for very strong chase.
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this. I seldom see beast mode nurse.
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Good point, my friend!
I've always thought of SWF as an unsolvable problem. Players are doing nothing wrong, they are just playing with their friends, but DBD is (...was? I don't know how things currently are) built around a certain lack of information. That is why we have perks like Alert and Premonition, which gives players limited amounts of information, and the reason why the old OoO had a dangerous drawback. Using comms gives a huge advantage, where it shouldn't.
But I don't think anything can be done about it. Playing as an extremely sweaty Nurse/Blight is also a huge advantage, but there is no altering one without touching the other.
And the players caught in the crossfire? Well, they just suffer.
Such is the way of things.
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You can post your math all you want, but saying she has some of the worst mobility in the game is just flat out wrong. Her mobility is the reason why shes so strong in chase and thats because she completely ignores obstacles in the way.
While a normal killer would have to walk around a bunch of junk to reach the Survivor, Nurse just phases right through them at a much faster speed than walking. Another thing that makes her have one of the best mobility killers in the game is the ability to blink through floors which saves a MASSIVE amount of time.
Nothing in this game can be broken down by math alone. Theres always other factors to take into consideration.
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You missed the point entirely, you aren't going against good blights and nurses. There's far more good nurses than blights but it's a direct comparison to what you said about good swfs. Also I am not defending nurse, I dislike that killer.
I know you like to ignore half of each reply but hope you get it.
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Edit 2: WRONG MATH BELOW, SKIP TO ALL CAPS
Fair, I see the 2 seconds charge mistake was because the charge timer on the wiki was sandwiched between 2 2's (2/3, the Important number/2).
I also forgot about the 2nd blink wait timer, so fair again, my mistake, but I thought you were supposed to sit at 1 charge to negate the wait timer. If then, you can use mobility by using a double blink then staying at 1 charge afterwards, bypassing this wait timer. This chained 1 charge 1 blink utilizes the prior math with the addition of the forgotten 1s normal walk to get the charge. That puts her at 27.7m/5.5s + 3.85m + 1s, for a repeatable 31.55/6.5s, or ~4.853846m/s. This would require the initial double blink 2s charge @2.89m/s, 1.5s blink @13.33m/s, say the Nurse is playing it safe at a 1s 2nd charge @ 1.16m/s, then blink at the reduced 10m/s for the half charge taking roughly 1s (assuming half max charge = half max distance, and middle-ish speed) with 2.5s fatigue @.96m/s and .5s of walking at 3.85m/s, for 8.5s of 41.265m of distance, or an average of ~4.854705m/s. So both setting up, and maintaining blink mobility moves you at ~4.85m/s. We can add on 3 more seconds of walking and 11.55m of distance to simulate repeating 2 blinks, and that puts us at 11.5s and 52.815m, or ~4.5926m/s. That means single blinking (at 2 charges) is the least efficient method of moving, and even only double blink spamming essentially means she is a 4.6 Killer that can go through walls.
Math in a less ugly format here:
Edit 2: WRONG MATH ABOVE SKIP, KEEPING FOR CLARITY
Fixed Math:
Initial Double Blink 4.3575 m/s Repeated Single Blinks walking Chain Blink Window 4.2325m/s Repeated Double Blinks ~4.240m/s
Edit 2: Below is original post still relevant sections.
I do think going straight through walls is understated in terms of distance overall though, as most maps aren't featureless white planes. Bypassing even 1 jungle gym or filler pallet loop is massive in terms of distance gained for a m/s metric. A normal M1 Killer would still have to zig zag through most obstructions, meaning they only tickle Nurse's chase potential by being LOS blockers. Even cutting corners when going around main buildings is instrumental in saving time and distance, which also allows for you to see if a Survivor is inside the building, which is intel most Killers aren't getting.
I don't think Nurse vs Survivors is truly a 'better skilled player comes out on top matchup'. If I bring a rocket launcher and they bring a BB gun, it isn't an even contest, even if we both are master sharpshooters. I typically only play Killers that I dislike in order to learn how to counter them when playing with friends, or when 'forced' to do tomes in soloq. That being said, I find no meaningful counterplay with Blight or Nurse. As Killer I run meme perks and still get majority 4ks (or 3k+hatch, because I only slug for 4k on adepts/adept tomes) with both Blight and Nurse (and Spirit when my hearing was better). If I consider myself a 'bad'-Blight/Nurse, and I can win (consistently) with meme perks, the Killer is busted. I consider myself a good to great M1 Killer, and exceptional Ghosty player, and I still have to actually try to win with all of them. With Nurse I have to practically try to lose. Now to be fair, I have higher standards for myself so my 'bad' might be the normal player's 'good'.
Edit 2: Saw the follow-up math mistake, after re-reading seeing we both made a similar mistake (I skipped the chain window, you used the charge chain speed instead of walk chain speed.)
Below is irrelevant after edit 2, but left in to not look like edit cheese.
Edit: This would only make her Map Mobility questionably different from my original post, in that only Clowns and Bubbas with juicy add-ons might now surpass her mobility, even if we limit it to the 4.85m/s. That shifts her to ~16-19 Killers in which she has better Map Mobility, but only when those two are decked out with add-ons to support Mobility.
Post edited by mizark3 on0 -
Oh my goodness! A response from the General himself! Screw the topic! I’m just happy you’re still around! 💜💜💜💜💜
How’ve you been? Hope things are well for you?! I haven’t been playing due to my PC dying one me 😭. I think it’s a good thing, my addiction seems to be slowly breaking!
So as not to get in trouble for going off topic, there isn’t much the Devs can do. If they balance maps, the game would get stale. If they need Nurse and Blight without touching Swf, the sweaty, high MMR killers would quit and the low/average MMR killers would quit after the SBMM system throws them to the wolves (sweaty swf) since no more good killers are around.
It’s a damned if you do and damned if you don’t. As things are now, Solo is the best it’s ever been, especially with the base kit BT and the action icons in the HUD that lets you know what teammates are doing. The biggest problem with Solo isn’t Nurse or Blight or OP killers, it’s bad, lazy, and/or entitled survivors who DC/suicide because things don’t go their way. Devs can’t really do much for that.
Hope you are doing well and hope, for your sake, old Sir Fredrick makes a comeback into the game.
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I think Nurse is fine (unless hard tunneling) but to use "you don't see them often" as an excuse is weird to me. Of course you don't see them often, everyone is playing Wesker, Nemesis, Legion and Wraith because they are easier to get consistent results with. Nothing to do with tiers on that one, either.
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Ah, it is good to see you, my dear friend! I've been doing well, thank you asking! Despite your PC, I hope things have been going well for you 🖤
As for the topic at hand, I agree. It is interesting that things are a bit better for Solo queue, I'd have never expected that, but I can imagine some problems are still around. DC/suicides on hook may be just as unsolvable as the whole SWF/Nurse and Blight situation. At least it is not what you see on every single match, I suppose.
Much love to ya, friend. Thanks for not forgetting about me.
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How you know i don't go against good Blights and Nurses? Do you play with me? No? So you have no idea what type games i have.
And i don't ignore half of each reply. I just can't answer all comments, it's just not possible.
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Careful what you wish for. Last time people asked for a nurse nerf, she got actually buffed.
Remember, the devs only balance around stats. As long as the stats don´t show that she is so oppressing as people claim, the devs won´t do anything.
Maybe nerf Pig, but thats about it.
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I hope they never change her.
Evading a good nurse is a lot of fun and one of the few sweaty palm things left in DBD.
Evading a bad nurse is like watching someone play with a broken controller.
The mix up of gameplay is refreshing and the need to really focus and move is intense.
I can’t run around the same rock against a good nurse pallet saving then rinse and repeat, instead I have to think really quickly about where I’m going to run and how I’m going to break LOS and run it.
She can be spun, evaded and mindgamed like any other killer, it just takes a lil more effort.
The good step up to the challenge, the self defeating cry and call for nerfs. Which are you?
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I agree.
Nurse was my main killer for a long time and I have literally hundreds of hours on her alone (I know some have thousands) but I reached a point where I personally could not deny she is fundamentally broken.
I don't play her anymore other than with meme builds or doing things like sending myself to Lery's with a single blink. Survivors still give up straight away though and it isn't like I cant empathise.
I love the character and would love to see her get a total rework from the ground up so I can enjoy her without feeling cheap
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I was asking Sadako buffs for long time... And it ended with nerfing her :(
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But she can't take use of Starstruck anymore! This changed everything!
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The Sadako nerf was sad. Everyone cheered that she finally gets some love and it ended up a hard nerf. Maybe there is that one Sadako main, that distorts the kill rates on high mmr. You know? Like that one Twins main, thats a beast on high mmr and prevents some QoL changes for them.
We need to apply reverse psychology.
Buff Nurse!
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I know you don't because there are less than 100 good blights in the world imo. You can say good blight all you want but even with my rustiness I am still top 4% being extremely generous. You simply don't understand because you don't know implications required to be a really good blight. Fast bump logic, and the ability to instantly recognize collision at any part of any map puts blight far above the miniscule skill ceiling of any other killer. Any baby blight can watch Lilith hug tech once and repeat, but I have yet to see a good blight besides momo and lilith in my 100s of hours playing survivor and my thousands of hours watching content creators(that includes the many survivor players I watch as well). Your notion of a good blight is probably laughable from my PoV. Again, I don't need to see your games to know you aren't going against good blights just as you don't need to see the supposed god swfs the killers on this forum claim without instantly discrediting them. You may have gotten a few, but no more.
You do ignore half of posts, you take one sentence out of a paragraph and reply to it. You contently ignore many things said to you for your own sake. You have done it to me a several times and to others many many times. It's at the point where I don't feel it's worth conversing with you because it will amount to nothing.
It's not about responding to comments, it's how you do so.
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Personally I think the healthiest change would be to make her a 4.4 killer but with only 1 blink.
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