In defense of Adrenaline
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Again, you’ll only get the most powerful effect if you hard tunnel. If you play normally then it’s literally the same exact perk it was before if the survivor is progressing the game at all. If they weren’t progressing the game, then obviously they were useless that whole time. Idk how it’s hard to comprehend.
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Survivors gotta run. Running leave scratch mark.
The perk only work on Zarina's map, where it has a lot of bushes to hide after taking a hit from OTR. Other wise, example if you're on other maps like Lery, killers hit you off hook, disable both BT and OTR endurance, tell me how do you get a use of your hiding aura and grunting when killer chasing 10m behind you?
I thought OTR is strong, but it isnt. It has alot of things that make it sounds strong, but it isnt.
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You still have to tell me why tunneling is a bad thing.
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The tunneling I’m talking about is doing it at the complete start of the match and only targeting one survivor and ignoring the others. This completely ruins the experience of that survivor as they get very little BP and it also doesn’t help the killer player improve at all. It’s a cheap and scummy tactic that can be combatted with comms but what are solos supposed to do?
End game camping and tunneling is fine. Even seeing an opportunity to get someone out of the game with 1 or 2 gens left isn’t that bad too me.
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If I'm playing most games against someone who is much better than me, I will get stomped and probably won't have any fun playing. But it is a learning experience if I choose to use it as such. Every time I get tunneled at 5 gens, I can buy enough time for my team to get all gens done by my 1st or 2nd hook.
Solos are supposed to loop better. The point of a chase is to waste time.
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You really lost me there on the last points.
Solos, especially new solos will need time to learn how to loop - most can’t do that when they’re tunnelled out repeatedly which can be demoralising and demotivating to continue playing. The ones that inevitably do, get so good that they now have an axe to grind with killers and who I’ve stomped them and end up toxic - and that cycle starts. I believe the cycle of toxicity starts because of such killer stompability and BMing on low level survivors. I can’t remember who but someone else on the forum put it well: lower level MMR the worst killer toxicity and the higher level MMR had the worst survivor toxicity.
I disagree that Solos “are supposed to loop better” or the notion (sadly) that they will be happy to gladly be tunnelled as long as they can with low bp for the rest of the team.. you can only really expect that from swf.
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Tunneling isn't toxic. If you get tunneled, you have the perfect opportunity to learn how to loop in a stressful environment.
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The thing is, OTR may have 3 good effects but they barely come into play.
If you are not being tunneled, it doesnt matter if your aura cant be seen or your grunts of pain not heard for 80sec because the killer will be chasing another survivor and you will be healed.
If you are being tunneled, the killer usually proxy camps the hook so they will see you being unhooked, hit you while having BT making you lose endurance and the aura and grunt of pain will barely be useful if the killer is chasing you closely.
So OTR needs you to be in that perfect grey area where you are tunneled enough to use the effects of aura and grunt of pain and endurance, but not so hard tunneled that the killer is already with you by the time you are being unhooked.
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Old Eruption had 3 good effects that barely came in to play if the gen got done.
The unhooker can take a hit for you off hook to conserve your OTR endurance. After that, you still have old IW and Distortion. Do you really think people ran old IW because it was "barely useful"? Killers use grunts of pain to win a lot of mindgames around strong tiles. No grunts of pain means the killer can't track you down with sound. Additionally, no aura counters strong addons such as Compound 21, or perks like Thwack, NTH, I'm All Ears, and so on. The killer can't be right up on you if they hit you. It's either they're right up on you and trying to wait out BT, and then they smack you giving you distance, or they smack you early and you get chased with IW+Distortion.
Your argument is akin to saying Unbreakable is a weak perk because you rarely get slugged.
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It's not fine at all it completely kills the endgame, if 3-4 survivors are running adrenaline its almost always a guaranteed 4 escape. The game shouldn't end when the gens are powered.
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The unhooker can take a hit and the killer also can choose to ignore it to tunnel you, which is most likely to happen. So keeping or losing your endurance really depends more on the killer than the unhooker.
People ran old Iron will because it was permanently active when injured, not just 80 seconds after unhook so it had a lot more versatility than OTR does. Also At that time, there werent so many aura perks so you could realistically try to hide from the killer if you were injured.
But removing grunts of pain and aura when the killer is actively chasing you to tunnel does not make OTR a good anti tunnel perk.
A killer tunneling you will not use something like THWACK, and would also not stop to kick a gen to activate NTH. They will just chase you using perks like bamboozle or Hex:Blood favor so you cant vault or drop pallets. You may confuse a bad killer with the no sound effect, but any decent killer will tunnel you anyway because OTR's main strength(endurance) is literally countered by hard tunneling.
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I don't believe the devs have ever said getting tunneled is fun or engaging gameplay though, just that it isn't against the rules. 'Bad' encompasses more than just exploits or unintentional gameplay interactions. I would argue that unfun gameplay and the frustration of being able to do nothing during a match but go from hook to hook might not be 'wrong' but is something that makes it fair to say the killer is playing like a jerk.
One thing to consider is that the game is designed in a way that makes it mostly up to the killer so far as whether you are downed once they see you. Occasionally a survivor will lose me in chase if they're set up for stealth, know the map well, and are in area that allows for effective, post-LOS break plays but the vast majority of chases that don't result in downs are because I chose to end chase to maintain gen pressure or get an easier down. If I was tunnelling then there is no choice to make and that survivor will likely be going down.
The only thing that mitigates how unfun it is from a survivor perspective is the fact that not every single killer does it. If they did, I would just stick to killer and not bother queueing up for survivor - bp bonus or no.
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Again, you're inventing these scenarios in your head and using them as an absolute. If the killer is proxying, they likely are not close enough to get an instant hit off unhook. In which case, your unhooker can escort you to the nearest pallet to take a hit. If your unhooker is competent enough, they can deny the hit until you get to the pallet, at which point you still have your endurance.
But even after you lose your endurance, again, you have old Iron Will. You can afford to just leave a tile without alerting the killer that you're doing so, you can afford to play mindgames because your grunts of pain can't be heard, and you have no aura. You have a much easier time losing the killer in a chase. Even if the killer loses you, and stops to kick a nearby gen/pallet to get aura read, your Distortion saves you from that. The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling, it functions TO counter hard tunneling. At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die. Assuming you're able to run the killer for all 5 gens, you likely bought your team a 3-out, which is a loss for the killer. If you even manage to get your 2nd hook by the time last gen pops/is almost done, you should be able to 4-out if you have a gate close enough and your team can take hits. OTR enables all of this. Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value. I've ran killers for 3+ minutes using this same build after they tried to tunnel.
No, the devs specifically mentioned that tunneling is a valid strategy, not that it simply wasn't against the rules. For example, bleeding someone out when there's a hook right in front of you isn't against the rules, but it's not really a strategy. It's just BM. Tunneling is an objectively good and efficient strategy, and I would argue that in today's meta, it's necessary to secure a lot of wins.
Also, a killer isn't a jerk for tunneling. A killer wanting to win isn't toxic, they're just sweaty. Being sweaty isn't being toxic. This is something survivor mains need to get through their heads: a killer playing to win isn't personally targeting you, and isn't being toxic. They just want to win as much as you want to win.
You absolutely have plenty you can do instead of going from hook to hook. Your best option is to just play better and loop the killer. Run to a safe pallet, drop it, and run it until the killer breaks it, go to the next one, rinse and repeat. You're now buying your team time to do all the gens, and might even escape assuming you do a good enough job. And if you do, you are the MVP of the game as you've managed to run the killer for enough time for your team to do all gens. If your team is good enough, and they see you're in trouble, even solo Qers will jump in to take a hit if they see you nearby, which resets Bloodlust and gives you distance.
I agree that a killer is partly responsible for the pace of the game, but so are survivors. If survivors are efficient, and split up on gens instantly, odds are they will have 3 gens pop by the time the first chase ends. What chance do most killers stand against this if they don't tunnel? There is a mathematical problem in DBD; survivors are simply too efficient. But for some reason, killers are expected to spread their hooks out, but survivors are allowed to sit on a gen from 0 to 100% and no one bats an eye. Maps are too safe, survivors are too efficient, and gens are too easy. This is also the reason why you see more and more people gravitating towards playing stronger killers; survivors turn into gen jockeys when left alone and unbothered. A killer may either hope to get someone out early and possibly secure a win before the last few gens pop, or may hope for altruistic plays that they can snowball off of. Once the last gen pops and you get slapped with 4x Adrenaline, all bets are off for the killer.
This is compounded by the fact we keep getting more and more broken perks, like MFT, which only further enable survivors to waste a killer's time for free.
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inventing scenarios? Tunneling is what i see most in my games. at least half of my games consist of killers tunneling someone at 5 gens so it's safe to say that i know what kind of attitude does the killer have in those situations.
You are also assuming that the unhooker is always in a position that can help you deal with a killer tunneling.
What about if you are going against a nurse, that can literally blink through the unhooked and hit you?
or a wesker hitting you by dashing against a unhooker hitting both?
or a bubba, that can chainsaw through the unhooker and hit you after?
or a spirit phasing behind you both
what about the unhooker is injured, because perks like sloppy exist and you cant always heal before a teammate dies.
you can also be hooked in a deadzone.
There are dozens of situations where the unhooker cant cover you, that's why OTR, an anti-tunneling perk, should not require another person help to do what it is meant to do.
"The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling" it is, the 80sec of endurance means nothing if you can lose it 5sec after unhook as all endurance effects cant stack together.
"At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die" i agree, but you are better off using perks to extend chase like resilience or MfT or adrenaline instead of the perk that is supposed to save you from these.
"Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value" Look, if you need not one, not two but three perks to have a slight chance to survive one of the most common tactics killer use today, that alone speak volumes of how these "antitunnel" perks barely do anything at all.
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You aren't completely wrong but even if they buffed him, Adrenaline would still deactivate his power. That is not fair.
You pop the gens and then you not only get all the benefits of Adrenaline but you also reduce Freddy to a M1 killer with absolutely no power. Not even Trapper has that kind of weakness. He needs a complete rework to fix this. And that is likely not going to happen.
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Not against the rules or a perfectly valid strategy mean the same thing in context of what my point was. Neither statement precludes something being unfun, unfair, or otherwise bad.
I never said a killer was a jerk for tunnelling, just that the behavior is jerkish. I never said a killer wanting to win was toxic. I disagree that tunnelling is necessary to win if that's the argument there. I never tunnel and aside from a handful of games with really good survivors, the only times I don't get 3 or 4Ks are when I choose to go easy or let people go. I can only remember a couple of games where I didn't at least get a 1K and was actually trying. Doing something in the pursuit of winning doesn't then shield that behavior from criticism. Is your argument that getting tunneled is fun for the survivor player or that it doesn't matter because the killer thought it would help them win?
Unless there's an infinite loop hidden somewhere I'm not aware of, there is no playing better to loop the killer forever. Again, we're discussing tunneling here so this killer is not breaking chase. I'm not an amazing survivor, but I'm not new either - I'm capable of looping. What I can't do is spawn pallets out of my butt or convince the killer to move the chase to a more advantageous tile.
The survivor that sat on a gen from 0 to 100% was a survivor that the killer never chased off the gen. Survivors have one objective that directly contributes to their win condition - generators. A killer that plays to pressure gen progression and have kills/hooks come while doing that is going to have an easier time than one who mainly focuses on getting kills and wonders why survivors keep getting gens they aren't patrolling done. A killer can't tunnel a survivor and then act surprised the other survivors were working on the only objective that matters in the mean time.
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You invented scenarios because you assumed one specific scenario and assumed it as the standard (killer is "proxying" but is right back on top of the hook as the unhook is happening). You're also inventing scenarios as you speak, but I'll entertain it.
Nurse? You got bigger problems than losing your Endurance if you're being tunneled by a Nurse, but OTR is probably the best perk you can have when being tunneled by a Nurse. The Iron Will will let you last much longer in chase since good Nurses use grunts of pain to predict mindgames. Also, if she has any aura reading perks, they're gonso.
Wesker? If he goes for the collat, he's already wasted one (maybe two) of his rushes, and you have a speedboost. Use it to get out of dodge.
Bubba? Your teammate is farming you if they unhook that close to a Bubba anyways, with the Bubba's rev already advanced enough for him to get a double hit on you. If a teammate unhooks you knowing they go down, they're either running Deliverance, or they're trading hooks to buy your team more time to do gens. Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you.
Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer.
Now explain to me how Resilience/MFT (an overpowered perk used by many as a crutch, and will get nerfed very soon) will help you in any of the above scenarios. I'll wait.
OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel.
If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance.
If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there.
Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game.
Adrenaline won't save you if you get tunneled before all gens are done. But you know what perk will help you stay alive until then? OTR.
No, you don't need to run THREE perks to have a slight chance, you CAN run three perks to stand a very strong chance of running killer until endgame. I've already said I've used that same combo before to run a killer for long enough for all gens to get popped by the time I went up on the hook for my 2nd stage, and we were able to 4-out, THANKS to those perks. It's also about strategizing on the survivor side. If you're a confident enough looper, you can take the killer's attention early on, and run them for 2-3 gens. At this point, the killer will desperately attempt a tunnel, at which point they hit the double whammy, and you may even escape before you even go on the 2nd hook. See? That's counter-strategizing to a popular, efficient killer strategy. That's what good players do. Good players see the most effective strategy used against them, and adapt (like killers do by tunneling, when the meta is to rush gens). Bad players sit back and whine about the effective strategy and hope to nerf their way to an easy victory.
My final point being that OTR is, indeed, one of the most busted perks in the game currently. Should I get a nerf? I don't know. All I know is I roll my eyes every time I see it, and tunneling is a fair strategy that shouldn't be discouraged so heavily, unless survivors receive equally debilitating nerfs to their basekit gen speeds.
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Calling it "not against the rules" in this context as your only comment on it is reductive at best and extremely disingenuous at worst. It's neither unfair, nor bad. There are situations where the killer's best move is to tunnel (those situations are pretty common), and there are others where it will lead the killer to a loss.
The behavior isn't jerkish either, just the same way it's not jerkish for survivors to split up on different gens across the map. It's just being efficient. Both sides are doing their best to win, one shouldn't be condemned while the other is commended.
"I never tunnel and yet I get 4k's all the time while running no slowdown" yes, I remember I used to say the same thing. Then I crawled my way out of baby MMR. Against any team worth their salt, AKA no baby Dwight that spends the entire game crouched in a corner and opening chests, even assuming they're not on comms, you WILL lose the game if you don't tunnel, or, at best, 2k, unless if they make a significant blunder and let you snowball, or you happen to be one of very few strong killers and playing them at a high level.
My argument is it that neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. Killers don't enjoy seeing 4 gens pop before they even get their first hook, and survivors don't enjoy being camped and tunneled when they go down in a deadzone. That's neither side's fault, and neither behavior is toxic. This entitlement somehow only seems to exist on the survivor side, where survivors will go out of their way to condemn a killer for playing in a way that will win them the game.
There absolutely is a playing better to loop the killer. There are enough resources on every map in the game for all gens to get completed twice over, and probably more, depending on the map. Chain loops and play them to their fullest, and you'll have a better experience. If the killer is already committed to the tunnel, they're very unlikely to drop chase to go for a healthy survivor because they hear a 90% gen and you're injured on your first hook. Your job is to not go down, and that's it.
Ok, so the killer is supposed to push people off gens then? So what happens when the killer is pushing one survivor off a gen? What are the other three up to? Or is he supposed to drop chase and go back to the other gens to push survivors off of them? When does the killer have time to chase exactly? The most effective strategy for a killer is to hook a survivor close to gens that have some progress, and proxy the objective. If I'm really sweating and I have a gen regressing and a survivor on hook, I'm likely gonna stay in the area. And if I see one, or even two survivors nearby, you can bet I'm not going anywhere and you're not getting the unhook for free. That's not toxic, that's just me playing to win. The killers that lose gens left and right while tunneling are the ones that get lead by the tunneled survivor on a wild goose chase, often leading the chase to 0% gens, or worse, completed gens, and the killer is unable to do multiple things at once at that point. Again, there's very few killers that have the power to transition quickly between pressuring and chasing. What chance do you stand if you're not playing one of them?
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As long as adrenaline works off the hook, then im fine with them removing the wake up effect
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There's a clear difference between survivors going to different gens and tunnelling. Survivors can't make the killer do anything and can't knock the killer out of the game. Again I ask - are you arguing being tunneled is fun? Are you arguing that whether someone does it to win is what makes whether it's fun or not relevant? Are you arguing that in a game no one is paid to play, whether one side has fun or not is irrelevant?
The entitlement goes both ways it seems. Arguing that someone else's experience is beneath consideration so long as they aren't affected is pretty entitled and a little short sighted. If enough matches are frustrating enough for one side then the other side is going to have some fun queue times.
So far as my MMR, I don't know what it is any more than you know what yours is. I will point out that if someone averages mostly 3 and 4Ks they aren't staying at the same MMR. All the pallets in the world are irrelevant if they're not anywhere near you. Same with strong jungle gym configurations. You can't outrun the killer - full stop. The only escape against a killer that can loop as well or better than you is if the killer chooses to break chase. There are no more infinites. Again, since this discussion is about tunnelling then the killer isn't going to break chase. If they did, they aren't tunnelling and then what are we even talking about?
If you think other survivors are on generators that you can't afford to have pop, then yes - you should break chase and get them regressing. You can kill a survivor whenever you want. You can only prevent a gen from popping before it's complete. Proxy camping is a double edged sword unless you've managed to set up a really tight 3 gen setup. You're choosing to secure one likely kill in exchange for giving a time advantage to the remaining survivors. They may or may not take you up on your exchange.
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But the survivors completed their objective. They should be rewarded for doing so. Also, it can only activate one time per match, and only if all gens get done, so it's not a problem
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sigh🤦♂️, it is obvious that we will never reach an agreement but i'll answer one last time.
Call these 'invented scenarios' or whatever, this does not change the fact that any killer receives a notification when a survivor is unhooked and many killers dont bother trying to chase another survivors and choose to go back to the hook to tunnel. This happens, and it happens A LOT, if you dont agree i cant do nothing for you.
Any of the situations i gave you are situations were any killer can bypass the unhooker and hit you regardless because YOU suggested that the unhooker can escort you to a safe pallet to make this perk work, it does not mean OTR cant give you any kind of advantage in chase but ultimately it will not save your life.
OTR has nothing to do with a nurse, you may survive a little more if you are able to reach some loop with high walls that lets you lose LOS but that's it. as i said before, you have more chances of reaching that loop if you slap chase perks like MFT/Lithe/Resilience rather than OTR. and if she has aura reading perks, you are truly better by using distortion that is better than OTR because it also hides your scratch marks.
Dodge a wesker? if i am telling you that the wesker is dashing through the unhooker i obviously meant a situation where i can't possibly dodge the hit. Seriouly, i dont need to be pointing out that a wesker can close the distance with the 2 dashes in seconds and make you deep wounded by hitting the unhooker. In that case, you are losing OTR the moment you are unhooked.
" Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you." that's what i mean, even while using OTR with its 3 strong effects, you will still die if the bubba decides to go back to the hook to tunnel you.
"Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer." Good luck finding a good spirit who is not using MDR + DCB combo so they can go fast and see the killer instinct when they are close. Dried cherry blossom screws over OTR like nothing.
Resilience and mft will allow you to reach others loops better than OTR, and create more distance instead of hoping that OTR does not get useless after 5 sec.
"OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel." but it does require another person to be effective, if you didnt need another survivor to cover or hope that the killer is not tunneling you hard enough that you lose endurance 5 sec in OTR would be so much better.
"If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance." but they usually dont take free down, they will slug the unhooker and go for the tunnel anyway to ensure you are out of the game as soon as possible.
"If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there." it should, if i am using a perk slot to avoid being tunneled i would expect at least to be able to reach a loop where i can try to do a mindgame.
"Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game." and that's the problem, whether you lose it instantly or after 60 sec truly boils down to the killer so if he is tunneling you hard enough you lose your protection at the same time you lose BT. and then i have the typical killer main response of "you are using it offensively" like you have actually see me using it.
My point is that OTR does not help you when you actually need it. That you require the killer to not be tunneling you hard enough so you can actually make use of its effects which is a terrible take for a perk that tries to help you avoid being tunneled. it shouldnt have an endurance effect so the killer can nullify it when they hit you with BT.
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Survivors can absolutely do a lot to prevent tunneling. For one, they can hop in and take hits when the killer is trying to bloodlust. Two, they can take the killer to areas with no objectives when being tunneled, or very strong areas of the map to extend the chase significantly. Three, they can bring antitunnel and basically guarantee their escape when the last gen pops and they go down for 2nd hook (assuming they're not also running Adren). I would even argue, survivors have more counterplay to tunneling than killer has to, say, four toolboxes on four different gens.
Fun is subjective. But yes, some of the most fun I've had in this game was while being tunneled. And also some of the least fun. It's fun being tunneled by a huntress while I have an insane chain of loops and she's ignoring all my teammates on gens. It's not fun being tunneled off-hook by a cracked Blight with Alch Ring+Crow after he hooks me in a huge deadzone. But again, that's subjective. I'm not arguing being tunneled is fun, because fun isn't objective. I'm also arguing that whether one side has fun or not shouldn't be of any concern to the other side. The goal of the game is to win. If someone wants to invent their own goals while within a trial and have fun while doing so, that's completely fine. Some squads go into a game with no intent of escaping, with their only intent being to bully the killer relentlessly with flashlights and Head On plays. That killer may enjoy finally downing all of them and getting the 4k. In this scenario, both sides had fun. But neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. I say, do whatever is most conducive to achieving your own fun in the game, as long as you're not using outright unfair or broken strategies/items (BNPs, MFT, old Eruption+COB+OC, 3-gen merchant). The other side's expectations of you matter very little.
How is your experience my problem? I've had bad experiences with survivors BMing when they 4-out even after I go out of my way to 8-hook, while playing a weaker killer, and trying to play as nice as possible, because they viewed the fact I outplayed them so easily at so many loops as toxic. In this scenario, I had no fun getting BM'd, and I took it even more personal because I was going out of my way to try and give them a chance, when I could have very easily secured the win by playing sweaty. Both sides go into games knowing what to expect, queue times are fine where they are with people tunneling and genrushing.
You're right, I don't know your MMR, and I don't know my own. I just know I used to hold the same opinion as you: that tunneling is completely unnecessary, that I can easily land a 4k on a survivor-sided map on a D tier killer while running meme perks. Then I started playing with the big boys, and even while playing Blight and ending my chases in 30 seconds, I'm still losing gens left and right. When you get to a point where you start playing against really good survivors consistently, you'll sing a different tune.
I've already told you, if you get hooked in a deadzone, that is 100% on you. That's not the killer's fault they chose to go down in a deadzone. And if the killer carries you to a more barren area, your team has the option to take hits for you to escort you to somewhere a little safer.
No, you can't kill a survivor whenever you want. As soon as you have one survivor on 2 hooks and everyone else is on 0 hooks, the tunnel-out is going to start deep stealthing, while the others will be as loud and disruptive as possible. Good luck finding your tunnel out when they hide in a locker in some corner of the map as soon as they hear TR. Are you gonna spend that time trying to defend your last 1-2 gens, or are you going to start hoping you find this immersed survivor?
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That was REALLY bad when Freddy had to put you to sleep b4 being able to touch you.
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You didnt have to write all that. Adrenaline is one of the most balanced perks.
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When did I say dodge a Wesker? I said get out of dodge. Do you know what that expression means?
"Spirit using her two most broken addons doesn't care for OTR" Woah really? That's almost like saying good luck against an Alch Ring 10k hour Blight, ergo OTR is useless. It's technically true, but it's such a non-argument.
Neither Resilience nor MFT will help you reach a loop. Both perks exist to help IN a loop, not OUTSIDE of it. Resilience is worthless if you have no pallet or window to vault, and MFT won't get you to a loop if killer hooks in a deadzone and decides to wait out your BT.
And if they slug the unhooker, that means they didn't hit you, which means you still have OTR. Yeah, they have pressure with a slug and a tunnel out being chased, but that tunnel out has OTR and can take an extra hit for 80s.
You missed my point about being hooked in a deadzone entirely. You, as the player, have the option to choose where you go down. If you hold W towards a deadzone, and die in it, it's 100% your fault.
It boils down to the killer, it boils down to you, and it boils down to your unhooker. If the unhooker is unhooking with the killer in your face, yeah, you're gonna lose it instantly. If the unhooker waits until the killer is a moderate distance away and then takes a hit for you, it's up to you to take the killer to a safe loop and preserve your 2nd hit.
You're right, I don't know if we'll see eye to eye on this. You've obviously convinced yourself that OTR is a terrible perk. I'm of the opinion that if a survivor can't get value from OTR, they are terrible at the game, but maybe I'm wrong. I also know basically every comp player agrees with me that OTR is one of the strongest perks in the game, but what do they know.
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Wanting to win, playing to win, actually winning, and playing in a way that frustrating and unfun to the other side are not mutually exclusive concepts. What I don't understand is why you don't seem to understand why this particular tactic is commonly viewed as poor sportsmanship by the other side. If you want to disregard others and play the way you want that is perfectly within your rights. What isn't within your rights is to say someone is wrong to call a tactic bad or scummy just because you feel entitled to play that way and it doesn't affect your personal enjoyment of the game.
I was unaware it was up to the survivor where they go down. Next time I'm on a survivor I'll try asking the killer if they would mind walking over to a specific area with me before they land a blow.
Yes, you can kill a survivor whenever you want. What you can't do is keep a gen from progressing whenever you want. If one survivor is on 2 hooks and everyone else is on zero you have no one but yourself to blame as you clearly didn't go after anyone else. You created the situation that you claim now ties your hands. It also should be considered that maybe the reason the game is down to 1 or 2 gens in that situation is that you didn't put any pressure on 3/4 of their team.
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I do understand why people view it as poor sportsmanship: entitlement. And don't get me wrong, there is entitlement on both sides, but survivors are exceptional in expecting they can shame and guilt a killer into playing suboptimally. Bring slowdown perks? Toxic. Tunnel someone out? Toxic. It is absolutely within my right to call someone out for saying a tactic is scummy, if the tactic is, in fact, not scummy, and you haven't demonstrated that it is. You don't get to label a tactic scummy just because it hurts your feelings, and shame every player out of doing it. Now, I'll admit, killers do bear a certain amount of responsibility in dictating the pace of the game if they happen to be playing against solo Q. If you have a fresh install as one of your solo Q teammates, and the killer relentlessly tunnels them out, that's scummy, because odds are they can win very easily even without doing so, since the survivor will likely waste a lot of time and the team will be playing with 3 people. But that's more so a problem with the MMR system than it is with the killer himself. If the killer is playing against moderately competent survivors who are familiar with the game mechanics and tunnels, that's not being scummy. That's just playing to win.
Check this out: I'm a survivor in a deadzone. Killer finds me, I take the hit and run to an area with tiles. Now, if I go down, I'm either going down in a tile, or between tiles. Either way, I didn't go down in a deadzone. To go down in a deadzone, you have to be injured, be in a deadzone, and get caught off-position by the killer. And yes, that is 100% a skill issue.
Wrong, you can't kill a survivor when you want. You can kill a survivor only when all the following has been done: survivor is down, survivor is on death hook, no one is around for a flashlight save, survivor isn't down on a pallet where they can be pallet saved, there is a nearby hook, there isn't enough people nearby to take hits or sabo the hook, and survivor doesn't have DS. Some of these are within the control of the killer, others are not. Being able to find a death hook survivor on command isn't something most killers on the roster can do. Dropping chase on your tunnel out will often lead to them disappearing into thin air.
We already addressed the whole "just pressure gens bro" argument. I'm not going in circles here. Address my response or stop repeating yourself.
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Look, i never said that OTR is a terrible perk as survivors really have a lot of weak, barely useful, situational perks .
All i am saying is that OTR's main strength as an antitunneling perk should not be an endurace-like effect, as it was already nerfed when endurance stacking was removed and being hit with Basekit BT can hamper its effect.
Regardless you consider tunneling good or bad for dbd, it is no surprise that tunneling is being overused and is stronger than ever since 6.1.0. . Survivors really are in need of at least one perk that can put some stop to tunneling and does not have a mountain of restrictions like DS or can be cancelled by other mechanics being present.
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Tunneling is literally weaker than ever, what are you on about? We have basekit BT, OTR, Dead Hard only working after unhooks, and Pain Res is only for first SH. We're long past the days of no BT where you could slap someone back on the hook immediately after they come off.
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Since 6.1.0, killers got
- Faster breaking pallet
- Faster recover on hit
- Reduced survivor distance on hit
- +10sec to each gen
- nerfed Ds, 5 to 3sec stun and deactivate in endgame
- OTR indirectly nerfed when enduramce stacking was removed
- nerfed DH 4 times (invincible dash removed, window to use from 1sec to 0.5sec, endurance stacking removed, now only two uses per game)
- Locker saves removed
- Lightburn and unique flashlight interactions removed
- nerf COH
- nerf Medkits
All these changes directly or indirectly buffed tunneling and all this happened in a year. So yeah, aside from basekit bt, tunneling is in a very strong position.
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"aside from basekit BT" which is literally 10s of free time you have to run to a pallet, with actual BT extending that to 20s, with OTR giving you up to 80s. In the mean time, you mention 10 different things that killers got that have absolutely nothing to do with tunneling (outside of DS).
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I cant have a discussion if you are just going to disregard everything i say. I gave you a list, but if you truly cant understand hoy any of these changes affect tunneling then there is no point in continuing this.
Be well
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They literally don't affect tunneling at all, but I'll accept your concession.
DH was only nerfed once btw (the most recent update). Endurance DH was stronger than distance DH.
If you are gonna respond, I'd like for you to explain how old COH or old medkits is gonna stop you from being tunneled off hook. I'll wait.
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Adrenaline is one of those perks that is very situational and doesn’t necessarily give value every time.
I was playing against a Blight the other day and I’d equipped Adrenaline. I was about to go down (I was on death hook) but the last gen popped which have me a free health state and the movement increase. As a result, I managed to extend my chase and escape. Without adrenaline, I was for sure going to lose. There are other times I run adrenaline and think it’s a waste - for example, if you’re healthy and working on the last gen whilst a team mate gets chased. If you’re already full health it’s kinda useless, especially if you’re not being chased as the gens are finished.
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Apparently I need to be overly literal with my words. You can down a survivor whenever you want. You don’t need to down THIS survivor right now if chasing others off gens will buy you more time to get more hooks. The game favors survivors at the start of the match and the killer at the end because of resource usage across the map, knowledge (or lack of knowledge) of where people are, and everyone starting out with full health.
So far as calling behavior scummy, the definition for this informal use is despicable; contemptible. As these are subjective judgements made based on how others see or are affected by a behavior, the term fits whether the person engaging in the behavior likes it or not. It is by nature not their call.
Everywhere that isn’t a dead zone isn’t safe and full of god pallets. Not going down in a dead zone doesn’t mean the killer can’t get you if they decide to tunnel you out. It helps, sure - but you’re still probably going back to a hook.
It’s also worth noting that a killer’s win condition doesn’t start a a 4K. Any survivor escaping doesn’t mean the killer ‘lost’. The vast majority of games are not against SWFs. I myself only play solo q. Let’s say you’re right - that in high end matches the tactic is necessary. What is that - 5% of all matches, tops? Let’s give it a wide berth and say 10%. So now, 90% of all players can just shut up and deal with it? I don’t think so.
Let me be clear about something I think you misunderstand from my argument - I have no problem with one side playing to win - that’s what you do in a game. I don’t think ‘because I did it to win’ functions as some blanket shield from a behavior being criticized nor do I think tunneling is the only way you can possibly win in the vast majority of scenarios.
Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see where you addressed why pressuring gens isn’t a valid tactic that reduces the need to tunnel. I saw where you jumped ahead to the end of the tunnel and explained why you need to keep tunneling at that point but not why you started the tunnel rather than apply gen pressure in the first place.
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Of course I understand that and I don’t disagree with tunnelling not being toxic per se but as valid a strategy as it is, it can be insufferable for those entering the game. Many of the more recent new starters won’t have as much motivation to continue playing (I say this as I know of at least 20 people who started and gave up soon afterwards due to the horrendous learning curve for solos starters).
new starters in the past would have at least had more mitigating factors such as being able to use DS or more ‘broken maps’ with more infinites and so on. And I’m not commenting that those things should still exist, but I’m trying to illustrate that newbies in the past had more crutch and handholding to learn how to loop better. Recent newbies will not and so tunnelling is far more brutal and unforgiving. It’s easy to say “They should practice and get better” but the reality is that it is off-putting for more people and can be detrimental for the health of the game.
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Adrenaline is fine the way it is, and survivors should keep the 5-second sprint.
I was just telling someone after I found out that Spine Chill was gutted, they are probably going to come after Adrenaline next. When DBD gutted healing, killers immediately started running the health regression builds. Of course, in that situation, survivors are going to gen rush with an end-game escape option. As far as four people using Adrenaline, I mean, hopefully you didn’t let four survivors make it that far. It’s weird that killers will play the “survivor skill” card but never reflect on their own shortcomings as gamers.
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healing meta was healthy for the game? guess injure pressure being worthless is good then.
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I agree on this, but also, this is where MMR comes in to play, no?
DBD is a pretty unique game in terms of how its gameplay functions. There is little transferrable skill and a lot of new players are expected to absorb a lot of information early on. At least, MMR ensures new players are segregated from experienced players. To be fair, new killers will likely win a lot of their games, but it's unlikely they will tunnel or even understand how.
This is probably the only good argument I've seen against tunneling so far: that it can dissuade fresh installs who don't even understand the game mechanics yet, but I would argue this is moreso a problem with DBD's learning resources than anything else.
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People also don’t just get Boon Circle of Healing right out of the box; they have to buy Mikaela Reid to get it. Gutting a perk like that robs from the gamer experience. Especially from the people who had just purchased the character right before that update came out. That also happened around the time when every killer was doing the 3 gen thing. It made it so much harder to fight that strategy. When you have Adrenaline and that last generator pops, at least you have a chance.
It also takes a while to bless a Boon or to cleanse a Hex, while killers can just stomp out the Boons. These kinds of things take the survivors away from the generators, so it should make the killers happy.
If Dead by Daylight guts Adrenaline wait times to enter matches will probably go up to 20 minutes per match.
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People also didn't get old Eruption out of the box. They had to buy Nemesis and prestige him. Putting a price tag on something overpowered makes the game, by definition, P2W. And "this overpowered perk is attached to a character you have to unlock" isn't a good argument in defense of old COH. Either the perk is objectively broken and needs to get nerfed (which it was), or it isn't. Whether or not it comes from a DLC character is meaningless.
Also COH got gutted in the same patched that killed COB+OC. "happened around the time killers were doing the whole 3-gen thing" no, it happened at the same time, and it killed both COH and gen kick perks. Killers were no longer able to hold a 3-gen with COB alone, and survivors were no longer to reset in a corner of the map alone.
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