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Leatherface Tantrum Suggestion
TL;DR
The Cannibal no longer tantrums on objects, but does tantrum if you finish your chainsaw attack without hitting a survivor/pallet
Introduction
Hello everyone. My IGN and forum name is Leatherbilly, and as you might've guessed, my overwhelmingly most played Killer is the Cannibal, Bubba Sawyer, more commonly known as Leatherface. Juxtaposed to Hillbilly, his chainsaw has inferior mobility (in that it offers none) but has maneuverability beyond just "flicking." Two things actively hurt the Cannibal's current iteration of the Tantrum mechanic: a design and a glitch problem.
The Design Problem
Therein lies the problem at the heart of the Tantrum mechanic: it actively hinders what he is intended to do. He should be chasing survivors around objects as a strength, but his weakness actively prohibits that; one cut too close, and you're self-stunned for eternity; 5 seconds plus 1 second per charge spent up to a staggering 8 seconds. Cut it too safe, and you cannot catch up even with optimal add-ons. Problematically, that "sweet spot" is hard to identify, as objects' collision box can sometimes far exceed what they appear to be.
The Glitch Problem
This is the second big problem with the Tantrum: you don't actually have to bump into an object, sometimes merely looking in the general direction of an object will trigger it, sometimes hitboxes are considerably larger than they appear, and some objects are coded as a collision that make it impossible to traverse: one such example is the bus on Autohaven Wreckers, which will always trigger a tantrum no matter what you do. It is also extremely inconsistent with extremely unclear limitations on what will and will not trigger a tantrum without thousands of hours of knowing which objects are glitched, increasing with every additional map. Aside from being profoundly frustrating, this punishes new players particularly hard because they had no way to anticipate it would happen.
The Suggestion
Leatherface still tantrums if his Chainsaw overheats. He no longer triggers a Tantrum when bumping into objects. Whenever the Cannibal uses his power without hitting an appropriate target (a Survivor or a pallet) he will Tantrum for 5 seconds, plus an additional 1 second per chainsaw charge used.
Conclusion
This iteration of the Tantrum mechanic is both more thematic, as he tantrums only at the end of the film when a survivor eluded his grasp. It is more consistent with his design, as he is intended to chase Survivors in tight corridors around objects in ways the Hillbilly cannot. It is more future proof, as you will no longer need to learn the glitched objects of every new map. Finally, it is a more fair and skill indexed design with clear cut punishment for being outplayed instead of ambiguous hitboxes that can punish you purely for doing what BHVR intended.
Comments
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From all the killers I play bubba the most (at least right now). And quite frankly, I don't like your idea. It basically promotes using M2 only if you are in deadzone (with having "certainty", that it hits). Right now it's much better - survivors HAVE SOME counterplay, but Bubba can try to chain people also in loops where there are windows. That's much more fun interaction in my opinion.
Also - wonky terrain hitboxes are slowly being fixed. It's not an issue just for Bubba. Same thing is problem to varying degree to all the killers (and partially also survivors). It's just that Billy/Bubba feel it the most (but Blight mains could also talk about these things). From my point of view - butchering skill expression for simplicity (I am in this position so I win and you can't do anything about it vs I am 1m further away so I loose and there's no mindgame or anything that could ever change it) is not a good thing.
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That's probably worse than tantrum on object hits...
You can prevent tantrum by skill, except bugged areas, which should be fixed.
Using chainsaw and not downing survivor is normal. You can't really prevent it unless you will try to play everything super safe, which is boring.
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First, to your point on counterplay: there are two possible circumstances you're exploiting terrain as counterplay. In one, the Cannibal can still catch up and hit you if he plays properly; in this circumstance, there is no agency in the hands of the survivor, it's purely up to the Cannibal to not make a mistake. In the second circumstance, it's a situation like the Autohaven bus, the drop gaps on railings in a lot of maps, or large, wonky coded debris that will trigger tantrums so easily you can't cut it close enough and catch up. In this circumstance, it's not counterplay, it's just a zone of immunity from his power, which is a really horrible design. The ambiguity of where his skill expression is frankly is not a good thing.
Regarding your point on M2 gameplay, I present to you the Nurse, Blight, Huntress, Deathslinger, Legion and so on. That's not really a point, and the Cannibal would still rely on his mallet because you're just hurting yourself if you rely on only the chainsaw. There are many situations you can't get the chainsaw hit but could hit with your hammer. Even with this change that would be true, because of the following point.
Regarding counterplay for the Cannibal, it is and has always been windows and pallets. One of the most skill indexed things with the Cannibal are mind games at loops, and they would still be mind games where survivors have real agency, except now if you successfully avoid the saw, you can run away. Right now, he'll just take the M1 hit or wait for his saw to recharge and try again, unless they're a hold W gamer and the loop is positioned such they can run away. Still, cooldown from saw is much shorter than a tantrum. This would make the risk/reward of using his saw much greater than on live, and if survivors outplay him, they're heavily rewarded.
Deadzones are a strategy for the Cannibal, and requires target hopping for it to actually do anything, which discourages tunneling and is frankly a good thing and a skillful thing for a Cannibal to do; it's also something for which survivors have agency, to not create or not run into them, and to not strand a generator nearby one. If you run to an area with no pallets and no windows vs LF, you have made a perilous error and probably deserve to get punished.
Wonky terrain has been in the game for seven years and more gets added with every map. It's inevitable when you have ranged collision and melee collision to code for, and it's never going away. Some of these auto tantrum zones have been in the game since release and are still there to this day.
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Why not just remove the tamtrum all together 5 seconds anyway is eternity. You could at least suggested it being lot shorter.
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I don't mind LF being punished when he makes a mistake, but there are so many terrain objects with hitboxes the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier that it's difficult to really difficult to blame the Cannibal player for tantruming on literal thin air.
Also, just to reiterate, if you spent 3 charges and missed, they're already just holding W until the next loop because chainsaw cooldown lasts forever and a day, too.
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Yeah but then it last even longer and they get even more distance when you're in 5 seconds tantrum.
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Tbqh you're already giving up that chase because if you don't, you're getting looped for 3 gens. This just wastes a little more time as a reward for survivors outplaying the saw.
Right now they get rewarded because the map randomly decided to tell you to go screw yourself.
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I acknowledge your point of view, but I respectfully disagree.
Knowing when to turn around object (which means also knowing what addons are in play), because bubba is always slower when going around obstacles compared to survivor with thinner hitbox is survivor's agency (it's just not silver bullet if we disregard the fact, that bubba can get hard-punished for bad looping of obstacles - some of which as you correctly stated not being a mistake on Bubba's part, but on map designer's part).
This can be the difference between just eating all the pallets for 3 gens and then autowin, vs chasing someone with only a few pallets dropped
I like current state. And quite frankly I would be very much afraid to use M2 if I am not certain of a down - which makes it a bit boring on both sides.
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i barely play bubba and this is an awful idea
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The Design Problem
Therein lies the problem at the heart of the Tantrum mechanic: it actively hinders what he is intended to do. He should be chasing survivors around objects as a strength, but his weakness actively prohibits that; one cut too close, and you're self-stunned for eternity; 5 seconds plus 1 second per charge spent up to a staggering 8 seconds. Cut it too safe, and you cannot catch up even with optimal add-ons. Problematically, that "sweet spot" is hard to identify, as objects' collision box can sometimes far exceed what they appear to be.
this is not design problem. this is actual skill-cap. I know a lot of people like to say that billy is hardest killer in the game but compare bubba curving to billy. bubba in my opinion has way deeper skill-ceiling in curving because you need optimize curving to do well with bubba. with billy, you just need get the curve but once you get the curve. that's kinda it for billy. you make a guess to go inwards or outwards and the gameplay ends there. bubba is all about time optimization. this is why he has one of worst kill-rates in the game at top 5% mmr because using his ability is like nurse-level hard. bubba can also use his chainsaw to counter hold-w but that goes even deeper into his chainsaw play.
so I disagree with this post. his only issue in my opinion is add-on dependency. you really depend on yellow chili or purple chili to play bubba. his 2nd add-on is usually iri flesh or beast marks or primor blub. so if there is any buff, the buff would be making purple chili base-kit and changing those add-on to do something else. i would not call it an issue because newer players might complain about bubba if it was base-kit due to the unlimited instant down potencial of the killer kinda like old billy. it might be too oppressive. at the same time, his skill-ceiling is somewhat high that novice bubba player might not be good enough to optimize his chainsaw such that he hits the survivor at every opportune moment. so it might balance out but it could also be very oppressive similar to old instant saw billy.
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This would just make Bubba more boring for both sides. You wouldn’t use your chainsaw nearly as much unless you were certain to down a survivor. His chainsaw cooldown and recharge time is already adequate enough to punish misplays (which is fine). Adding a tantrum to that would be overkill.
As for bad collision on certain maps causing tantrums, yeah, those need to be fixed. The Autohaven fun bus is notorious for that.
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