Sadako's power is Polar and has a skill cap
The new Sadako rework has made condemnation a main point of her power. In these changes, it allows Sadako to spread condemnation way easier, whilst also being very easy to counter.
These new changes have made Sadako a Public Match Stomper to solo queue and incompetent survivors who don't understand her power.
- Let's get into why Sadako is so harsh in solo queue
- Lack of communication - While playing against Sadako keeping track of where the killer can be is difficult and hard to communicate with teammates about where she went and what TVs have been used. This leads to survivors making mistakes on where to go to be safe and where to go find a tape to try to lose condemnation.
- Global condemnation - Global condemnation had made it easier for the Onyro to make Condemnation a big part of her kit but it's caused survivors issues in keeping themselves from being fully condemned. The lack of communication is part of this but when all four survivors are near max condemnation. It becomes even more difficult for teams to organize and stop condemnation of the whole group. Global condemnation on survivors who don't understand this type of pressure will have to focus on condemnation as an objective to try not to get instantly killed out of the match.
- Now that we have discussed why Solo Queue has an issue with the condemnation and managing tapes, let's get into how strong the tapes are in countering Sadako.
- Tapes are Sheilds to Teleport condemnation - When grabbing a tape it stops the flow of condemn from teleports, by itself on one survivor it's okay to have it like a shield. But when all survivors have tapes it's a complete barrier to Sadako and doesn't allow her to ease her way into getting a condemned kill.
- Grabbing tapes turn off TVs - When grabbing a tape the TV you grabbed from gets turned off for a longer period than it would if Sadako teleported through it. This is good to have a counter play but when it all stacks up it objectively makes Sadako into an M1 killer with a weak teleport that can be turned off.
When both of these are combined it forms a really strong counter that can skill cap your killer power.
- So now we have a double edge sword one side makes Sadako really strong and the other makes the killer feel like you can do nothing with your power. This makes Sadako really polar and the strength of her lies in the hands of Survivor's decisions.
This makes it very difficult to balance this killer because if you make a buff to Sadako to have a chance against the best of the best then public matches will be even tougher against Sadako, and if you nerf her then Sadako will have no chance against the best of the best. Then the casual players will have a greater experience.
With the counter being so strong I believe that no killer in the game should have their skill expression taken away. All killers should have a chance to beat the most competent survivors in the game with the skill that they have accumulated over time.
I believe that both sides should have a fighting chance to win without feeling like they can do nothing.
- This leaves me with one final question
- What do we do to make sure that Solo Queue doesn't get completely steamrolled but also makes it so that Sadako can use her skill to win the game against the very best survivors?
Comments
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Sadako is the only killer in the game where Survivors can practically take away nearly all your power / main part of your power.
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Nothing should be, and rightfully is not, balanced at the SWF level. It is a broken version of this game that a few select survivors play, and they know how busted it is.
Why do you think in tournaments, score is given based on hook stages and not just kills? And perk/item stacking is restricted? And a whole bunch of other parameters are given?
Outside of SWF the current version of Sadako, is pretty busted. You literally cannot get a gen done and have to constantly do the TV mechanic. And even if you do, you'll just get spotted eventually and slugged.
And then the non communication/non-coordination disadvantage game begins. Where everyone swarms to your body that she is currently proxy camping, lets you get up only to slug the others that are carrying tapes, while you frantically look for .... wait for it... a TV.
It just becomes a match all about the TV mechanic and nothing else. Sadako, herself doesn't even need to hook anyone, preferably so as well. Why waste the time it takes to hook someone when you can just make a "slug trap" for the non swf players.
Its something that needs to be looked at.
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@ChuckingWong I'm trying to convey the fact that tapes can limit her power to do things completely and make her feel like she can't do anything. If you watch the Hens vs Onepumpwillie you would see how powerful the counter is.
Also, I personally do not slug as Sadako because slugged survivors cannot gain condemnation. So if you are slugging as Sadako you're not playing her correctly because keeping survivors alive and teleporting gives them condemn stacks. You want them to reach max condemnation, not bleed out. hook states are simply better pressure threatening one survivor with hook states and the rest with condemn is a great play. Overall she's really strong in solo Queue that's part of why I made this post. But I also made this post to point out the fact that when survivors eventually learn the counter she will be super weak and cannot use the main point of her power which is condemnation. Obviously, it's easier said than done but when a team does it perfectly the killer has little to no power. I want solo Queue to thrive but I also believe the killer should always be able to thrive through skill expression. But the way her power is set up at the moment the skill expression is based on the decisions of survivors and grabbing tapes.
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Well the slugging portion is advantageous because what I posted. Its probably why, every match against one, they are doing it.
Her current power level against non-coordination solo players is really the only problem with her current setup. It's not as simple as "pick up a tape" and thats it.
And yea its all up to the survivors, and thats true pretty much of every killer. Except the other killers have to hook you, where she does not.
I see comparisons sometimes or what abouts with the Pig. Pig somewhat can slug you but it doesnt carry the same advantage because she only can trap you once. As well as not progressing while in chase, on the ground, on the hook. Its not a fair comparison. Her power behaves in a completely different way.
I think for the majority of the player base, Sadako could use... maybe a higher cd to her teleport? A rework of, a now completely broken, iridecent tape and the comb... Just something, because you really stand no chance without a group against her.
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it is not busted. it has high skill-floor to counter and large skill-ceiling for sadako to well IF their opponent plays well. If your opponent plays bad, you do not need do well as killer to win.
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I could literally repeat what you just said but about the 3 gen camping Skull Merchant. How is a 3 gen skull merchant not busted given it held, arguably the best survivors in the world, in a match for 55 minutes?
Takes a high skill floor to counter and a high skill ceiling for the SM to do well if their opponent plays well.
Some things need to be changed that arent balanced properly.
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@ChuckingWong Picking up tapes isn't even a question it's objectively the smartest play to do at the start of the match. I understand not taking a hit while holding a tape can be difficult against even the most moderate players. But it's better to hold a tape for over 40 seconds than get teleported on 4 times. Not to mention how easy it is to remove condemnation with ANY tv. Yes, you can argue about how Iri tape and comb is really strong. But then that's a bhvr decision issue because if the add-ons are strong then bhvr should have made something different. The worse part is bhvr had the opportunity to make better add-ons. they claimed that they made an add-on pass that brought the strongest add-ons and the weakest to the middle. If anything Iri tape is still strong and there are so many add-ons that they could have added. Not to mention they nerfed Reiko's watch an add-on that takes skill in order to get full value from it.
I wanna thank you for your suggestion because I asked for some suggestions at the very end of my post. Changing more of the add-ons would be a great idea because you can barely call the add-on pass they made an add-on pass. They claimed they would bring the strongest and weakest add-ons to the middle yet Iri tape is still strong and they only changed around 5 add-ons leaving a lot of the add-ons still unused because they're not as practical. Almost all of Wesker's add-ons are practical in one way or another and bhvr should strive to make more add-ons like Weskers. Plus these changes give so much more opportunity for unique add-ons that change the way condemn could work. Maybe slowing teleports will be better for the Solo queue sure. But it still doesn't address the fact that when all tapes are being held, and removed at the right times when needed, her power is overwhelmingly weak.
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that is just unfair map design for survivor. maps should be big enough that gen spread is not so tight and survivors should learn to play better towards 3 gen type perks. this whole shrinking of maps and the killer being forced to 3 gen is not healthy for the game in terms of fun factor. the goal of the game should be more oriented to fun. 3 gen camping is like opposite of interesting and fun gameplay.
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Oh yea.
What I meant for "not as simple as picking up a tape" and thats it. Is that it goes back to the non-swf portion of it, really the part everyone agrees on its hard!
Just one example: You can sandbag your teammates unknowingly by taking a tape because you needed it. But hey my teammate needed it more, and I didnt know they were going to the same TV as me. Crap, now I put them in danger.
The comb/ iri tape. Its just too powerful, to the point where its... no other option? Pretty much? Like why give up that ammount of information on such a powerful ability? You know where the survivor is and has to go to turn in the tape, so it just becomes a matter of when you feel like you want to mori. Im not sure what they should do with those addons but they are currently, the only option it seems.
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She has a low-skill floor now because of global condemnation. A bad Sadako will just constantly tp and ignore tape holders and just wait until someone who doesn't grab a tape gets maxed condemnation. whilst a somewhat better Sadako would hunt down the tape holder. Global condemnation has watered down her power to be more simple to spread a lot more condemnation whilst also making it pretty easy to remove condemnation. Survivors have the tools to counter her easily but being that it's a solo queue it's more difficult to communicate with your teammates. She has two very polar ends of pub stomping and or being absolutely destroyed by tape-holding teams. The question is how do we make Sadako not absolutely destroy Solo Queue matches? But also make it so that tapes don't completely take away her power. Each killer should have a range of skills to beat any and all players yet her counter limits her ability to show her skill.
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Oh yeah the wombo combo. Comb and Iri tape...
It's like there is no other option. Why give up that amount of information? I dont think its fair for the survivors to have to traverse the map if they are in trouble, WITH TELEPORTATION lol, and you just know the entire way through start to finish what has to happen. Its like you have 5 stacks of devour and aura read and just go do the deed when you feel like it.
Definietely map/ gen placement can help. Agree.
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Are you talking about that one hens vid in youtube? that "Best survivors" who decided not to use BNP or stacked perks for some reason? it only took 55 minutes because killer decided to use best thing while survivors decide not to, it wouldn't took more than 15 minutes if survivors were serious.
Not gonna say it's balanced because there is BNP or potential energy, but using that as argument is quite misleading.
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I enjoy that it’s such a unique match and how the round plays out compared to every other killer. Both sides are playing differently than normal. I like the polarity of her power and how there’s room for both sides to take hold of it.
Out of like 20 games today I had maybe 2 teams that actually played against it properly and respected the condemn. Most survivors I think just don’t know what they’re doing, try to ignore tapes and just do gens, get mori’d, then come screaming OP after having done zero adapting.
The teams that actually utilized her counter play made a quite close game. Well balanced.
My only complaint is how reliant she is on her Iri Tape. That should be base kit. Being able to drop into any tv is just too easy and negates any of the slow down it would’ve otherwise provided.
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I think she’s ok. People are just too used to not interacting with tvs and need time to adapt. Prior to the changes, I could even run the addons that gave Oblivious and Blindness near powered TVs and walk around Manifested. Survivors would rather do gens with those debuffs than remove the tape.
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The 15 minute guess you posted is all speculation. Thats not what happened, and thats just what if. It's a bit off topic to go into the specifics of why I used this example but its a great comparison.
A high skill floor to counter (3 gen camping SM against average surivors), and a large skill ceiling for the 3 gen camping SM to do well against survivors who play well (as seen in the video). It can almost be said about any killer in the game but...
If we want to talk about the specific's we can private message, I would rather keep this post on topic though. Thank you!
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The question is how do we make Sadako not absolutely destroy Solo Queue matches? But also make it so that tapes don't completely take away her power. Each killer should have a range of skills to beat any and all players yet her counter limits her ability to show her skill.
that is question that I have asked myself many times with almost entire killer cast. I have no clear answer. What I will say that there is some responsible on survivor end to learn to play against the killer power/strategy before adapting to change any killer. simultaneously some responsible for killer to use ability to their best ability.
She has two very polar ends of pub stomping and or being absolutely destroyed by tape-holding teams.
that is just part of the skill cap to play against her. if you hold tapes well for long enough time then you will have an easy time escaping the killer. Likewise, if you fail to hold tapes for long enough time to complete 5 generators then the curse will overwhelm you. when sadako get destroyed by tape-holding teams, it is likely because of her weaknesses of being an m1 killer and survivor using the loops well alongside having good positioning to not get hit out in the open. if you want to buff that m1 weakness, then you have to improve her uncloaking(such as removing m/s penalty to decloak) and reworking that phase-walk invisibility. she also has undetectable but survivor can easily hear her due to ambient sounds. It is just that improving these aspects of her kit is too soon because loads of survivor struggle with condemn mechanic alone. dealing with anti-loop type mechanics and stealth is whole new level of difficulty that might be too difficult to play against even for teams that do properly counter condemn. I think skill-floor is already very high for average survivor given that average team easily falls apart to condemn alone.
buffing her against tape-holding teams would make her too strong for vast majority of survivor teams. survivors need time to learn to play against the condemn mechanic first before ever considering any changes.
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When it comes to solo queue it's one of two things
- It's too difficult to use the counter / the counter isn't good enough
- Survivors are not adapting to the change.
If the counter is not good enough to stop the condemnation then explain why she feels like she has no power against four tape holders / organized team.
The issue is not how strong or weak Sadako is, the issue is skill expression. In solo queue, it is more difficult to express your skill. But the tapes also limit the killer's skill expression if survivors use them correctly. Something needs to be changed so that survivors in solo queue can express their skill, but the killer also has the power to express their skill against the best of the best.
Even if survivors some how adapt to the changes, the tapes are still strong enough in the current state to limit the skill expression of the killer and I don't think tapes should be able to do that.
I am open to any changes that change as long as it keeps survivor and killer skill expression.
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the thing is that iri-tape greatly buff her condemn and it makes way more challenging to remove it. after playing many games, my conclusion is that iri-tape base-kit is kinda like pre-nerf iri hatchets for her. iri-type level add-on like that usually get nerfed to avoid killers from using it to pub-stomp. I could see them putting a heavy drawback on add-on such as making it remove all condemn stacks upon insert a tape discourage usage of that add-on. Its not inherently bad to have super powerful add-on but survivor likely do not want to face extremely unfair add-on's just like killer do not want to face 4 BNP that instantly complete a generator. if sadako more buffs then it should found in other places like in the chase & stealth. if anything I am more convinced of sadako being too strong based off my opponents struggling to defeat the killer then killer needing improvements.
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As a Sadako main:
- Reduce tape-slap to 1 condemn stack
- When you lose a tape, you have 10-15 seconds of condemn immunity so she can't start building more onto you immediately.
- Full condemned is an instant down, and ONLY a Mori on death hook
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I don’t feel like her design limits hers or the survivors skill expression. Both have skilled counter play.
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I wouldn’t put Iri Tape even remotely close to the pub stomp power of Iri Head. Iri Head was unfair, I don’t think Iri Tape is unfair at all. Iri Tape feels like a gold standard of what other Iri addons should be.
That all said, if your idea is to nerf the tape but buff her in other ways to compensate then I could get behind that depending what we’re talking.
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These changes would literally put her in F tier.
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How so? You can still rack up condemned quick enough and it won't go away until the survivor does tapes even after a hook.
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Yea i kinda like this sort of approach. Has a psuedo mori only on death hook like pyramid head as well
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Even before your first 2 nerfs, just your 3rd change alone would put her in like low C tier, at best. Requiring pick up, carry and hook time for each down will slow down her pressure significantly. Plus needing 3 downs on each person before the condemn even matters. With 1 and 2 included her condemn would now be coming so much slower combined with 3 to the extent that it wouldn’t be a viable win condition anymore. Which that can be fine if she has other tools to compensate, but it’s literally all she has right now.
These nerfs are wayyy more significant than I feel like you think they are. She would need massive buffs in other areas to compensate.
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Well I mainly put out the suggestions separate or together, so keep that in mind.
Secondly, her condemn buildup is enough slowdown to compensate for hooks. Especially if you play hit and run. Not to mention you can slowly build condemn and try to have it maxed out near the end of survivor's hook states if they neglect to do anything about it. It will also keep Iri Tape a very good addon to run for it.
You could also argue for stacks to add more than just exposed. People always wanted her stacks to do effects, could add hindered to it at a certain amount of stacks too.
Edit: In retrospect that's what yoichi's fishing net should have done...
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the changes legit delete the killer. that is hilarious. this why I hope sadako just stays the same so we do not get those type of changes.
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I think people are overstating how weak she is against teams that pick up tapes. As creators like Hens and Otz have shown us, she can still hold her own against high level teams that do that. Yes she did lose many games against extremely coordinated teams, but these teams are regularly up against the strongest killers in the game like Spirit, Nurse, and Blight and are able to win against them consistently, too.
And then if you don't pick up tapes, she annihilates your team.
And something needs to be done to stop her from slugging people all the time and actually respect hooks.
As it stands, despite the fact my Sadako is prestige 24 and is also a legacy prestige, I will not be playing her until something is done about her. Playing against her on survivor side is an abysmal experience that I do not wish to inflict on anybody. She's headed for a Skull Merchant scenario where survivors are going to start DCing the moment they realize it's her. Why not? What's the point in playing if you're going to get <10k BP, never actually get to enjoy a chase since she never commits to one until you're about to die, and then depip?
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Feel like all of these at the same time are a bit too much, last one especially is overkill
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I would suggest nerfing how strong tapes are in exchange for nerfing global condemnation.
Changes to global condemnation:
- Each teleport now only inflicts 1/2 stack of condemnation
- Teleport cooldown is now 12.5 (This would mean it would take almost 3 minutes of constant teleporting to reach max condemnation without grabbing a tape)
Changes to tapes:
- For every 30 seconds of holding a tape, you gain 1 condemn stack. (since the tp cooldown is 12.5 seconds 37.5 seconds of constant teleporting is only 1 and 1/2 stacks compared to 1 stack every 30 seconds.)
- When hitting or hooking a survivor holding a tape they only gain 1 1/2 stack of condemnation.
This way the tapes feel like they're still somewhat safe whilst also making it feel like you have no choice but to eventually remove the tape for holding it for extreme periods of time.
A second option for tapes:
- For each survivor that is holding a tape, tape holders will gain 1/4 stacks
This would mean if 1 survivor is holding a tape and Sadako teleports while they are holding a tape that one survivor will gain 1/4 stack of condemnation
If 2 survivors are carrying tapes while Sadako teleports they both will gain 1/2 a stack of condemnation.
If 3 survivors are carrying tapes while Sadako teleports then 3 of them will l gain 3/4 stack of condemnation.
If all 4 survivors are carrying tapes while Sadako teleports they will all gain 1 stack of condemnation
When a survivor is holding a tape and gets hit or hooked they will gain 2 Stack of condemnation
This option would make tapes still feel dangerous, but it will reward players and teams for only letting 1 or 2 survivors grab a tape and slowly condemn that way. But will punish the whole team if they decide to grab tapes.
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