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Do you think tunnelling is fair?
I am asking your thoughts on this mechanic.
To me, tunnelling is very unhealthy and outdated mechanic. Killer player is just destroying fun for survivor player and not letting them to play game. Ofcourse blame is not going to killer player, it's mechanic in the game. BHVR takes all blame and shame here for not addressing this issue.
I am not saying destroy killer gameplay and make win imposible for them. No. Tunnelling and camping should be less viable but killers should be rewarded by when they go for hooks. Reward killer player for getting hooks from different survivors. Reward killer for chasing well. But tunnelling and camping should not be rewarded because they are very unskilled strategies.
Comments
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I love being tunnelled, I want to be chased all game, I literally have not had fun playing survivor the past 3-4 months except for the games i got tunnelled
13 -
Both sides tunnel. Or would you ignore a gen thats at 90% and regressing to go for a fresh gen?
55 -
MMR is scored based on Kills/Escapes though. You may think that hooks is the way to go but clearly the devs don’t share your sentiment, otherwise it would be hooked by daylight
6 -
I consider tunneling a part of the game. If you are being tunneled it's important to get away off hooks as best you can and hide, make it hard for the killer to find you. Similarly if an ally is being tunneled, as a survivor you should try and help with body blocks, flashlight saves, sabo's etc.
Though, survivors could use some help in this department. The general community consensus, even from killer side is to bring back DS 5s stun as the anti-tunnel perk.... or at least 4s.
The other nerfs were very much warranted, and DS is setup to very much be a fair anti-tunnel perk, but the 3s stun nerf was overkill and made the perks value plummet to being barely usable.... if you don't get tunneled it does nothing, and it doesn't really have a massive value if you do get tunneled.
Even if it isn't the stun duration, the conditions and single use on it make it pretty damned hard to abuse... but it needs something extra to really give the survivor a strong chance of getting away after the stun.
2 -
I think a definition clarification is needed. Most people enjoy being chased, I don't consider that tunnelling. Tunnelling for me is the targeting of someone straight off the hook. Even with built in borrowed time, it is difficult to reach defensive resources in this state.
To answer the question, tunnelling IS fair, but it is supremely not fun. No one could possibly enjoy what results from that tunneling act, which is more idle time on a hook.
I believe for the health of the game, both sides should exist, for as much time as possible, in the fun activities of the game and the game should minimize those aspects that aren't fun for both sides.
2 -
No, but neither is splitting up on gens 2s after the trial starts. Both playstyles are the optimal one, and botj back he other side against the wall, forcing them to step up their game and play more optimal themselves, or perish and get ridiculed "gg eeeeez".
The community optimised the game with not much wriggle room left. What the game needs would be a big reset, right now he killer is screwed if they allowed to enter 3gen stage with 4 survivors, but with 3 gens popping first chase, tunneling is basically their only option, baring massive survivor misplays at the start. And with killers ob high alert and out for blood from the start, survivors have to push that gens asap.
We need a system overhaul: killers needs fo get more out of hooks without killing anyone, feeding the Entity survivors hope in the lore, but doing so isn't supported by the system. And right now ganging up on gens is discouraged, splitting up is the way to go and genetates trippel the amount of pressure.
If they changed this, ie getting killers to go for 8 hooks before the kill and suevivors to do one gen at a time, then the game would be in a much better state, but as of now its a deadly race to see which side can tunnel their objective fastes.
7 -
Yes.
Killers are rewarded for not tunneling by being unaffected by really strong perks such as Off The Record and Decisive Strike. I suppose you are running these all the time if facing a highly efficient tactical approach "destroys your fun".
4 -
It varies.
Hard tunneling the first player you down when you realise that they can't run chase? Pretty unfun scummy move. But it guarantees an easy game. Ruins the game for that player.
Midgame, you are 2/3gens down and have the choice of pursuing the unhooked surv with 2 hooks states who is 8 secs away from an easy 1 hit down and kill, or the uninjured surv with 1 hook state. You need that pressure to keep the balance on your side. I know what my choice would be and I've done it many times. That kind of tunneling is just smart play, plus the surv has had time to actually play and achieve something.
But in my experience surv players usually cry foul when they get tunneled at any point. I once tunneled a vittorio with 1 gen left, one dead player, 2 double hooked hadn't seen her all game. I tunneled them for 3 full hooks states late game because i wanted to let the other 2 go.
That vittorio was PISSED. 🤣 got a lot of hatemail for that one. They even got a friend of theirs to message me saying I'd been reported to bhvr with video evidence 😂
3 -
Besides MMR, both sides tunneling their objectives (kills and gens) is the most efficient way to win the game, it always was. But as killer your first tunnel could be their best surv, maybe even has second-chance perks and/or SWFs and perks to make it really hard. I also see killers who only start to tunnel when the gen pressure get's too much. At this point, most of the time it's already too late. Also the definition of "tunneling" needs to be clear: Killer is only going for you until you're dead.
3 -
Lets clear up the misconception here.
"Tunneling" only happens when a killer returns back to hook and ignores the rescuer to double tap the rescued.
If you get rescued and use basekit BT to bodyblock, you've essentially agreed to another chase, this is not tunneling.
If you get rescued and get organically found again before anyone else, thats not tunneling.
If the other survivor goes for a risky rescue in the killers TR, and you get downed + hooked again, thats not tunneling thats your teammate's mistake being punished.
etc etc.
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I can guarantee you, 99% of "tunneling" claims are due to a rescuer using basekit BT to bodyblock and getting punished, a risky rescue getting punished (for example, going down for a basement rescue when the killer didn't even make it past 5 feet out of shack). Or just being generally unlucky and being on the gen the killer checked.
First analyze what happened then you can understand what went wrong. if your teammate goes for a risky rescue and causes you to be downed and hooked again, thats on your teammate, not the killer.
Mistakes should be punished, not rewarded or erased.
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Camping? it takes 120 seconds for someone to go from 1st hook to death. your 3 teammates can pop 3 gens and put the other 2 on half progress in 120 seconds.
If you see a camping killer, just do your gens instead of staring at the killer while furiously pointing at the survivor rulebook for killers page #265 line #23 "Killers shall not be within 50 meters of a hook for more than 5 seconds after hooking someone"
10 -
Yes
1 -
People will always tunnel, but I do think perks for hooking unique survivors should be more plentiful and stronger. This is one of the best solutions I can think of.
1 -
If game still balanced on kills, yes.
You have to kill and 3v4 is easier than 4v4.
Beeing practical in general its the better way to win.
Unless bhvr change win conditions, this is just best strat.
Not saying is good/bad fair/unfair. Just cold numbers.
3 -
It should not be removed but it should be harder to do. Currently, tunneling is not only the most effective way to win, it is by far the easiest.
4 -
Now everything is more clear, thank you
3 -
Do I really need to be the 10th person here explaining why it's fair?
7 -
You know , you don't have to write if you are not on mood.
5 -
It's not about you explaining us of how it's fair or unfair, but rather about you providing your thoughts onto the matter, regardless of the obvious or not obvious facts. It could be as simple as „Tunneling is very unfun for both sides, but many times necessary to ensure having a chance of getting back into the match. There's no need to tunnel if I supply myself with the necessary generator regression META perks, though.“, or as complicated as typing down an entire essay of over five hundreds words, explaining all your reasonings and describing various scenarios, such as some of the players pretending that tunneling is everything that they see as an unfun thing to encounter.
1 -
I agree that it's unhealthy for the game, but how can weak killers build pressure without it? Trapper is literally useless at this point because there's no grass anywhere to hide traps anymore; if you take away the tunneling aspect from him, his killrate would be like 0.75 LOL
2 -
If survivors could gain back their hook stage and remove all the progression killer did, just like a 90% Gen can be regressed to 0. That would be a more fair comparison.
To Op, tunneling isnt fun for most survivors, but its fair. I mean, good luck to killers take the easier way to 4K then play against a much stronger team later and being stomped back, thats the most fair part, and the root of complaining about how hard the game is for killers discussion.
6 -
I agree. When I'm tunneling a survivor, all of the other survivors should get off of gens and get themselves injured/downed trying to stop me. That'll show me!
2 -
Both Demogorgon and Xenomorph have an official tunneling pass. So for them it is natural. Get it ? :P
8 -
I actually want it to stay. Let players choose of they want to tunnel or not.
I dont like removing possible playstyles for players, keep the options there.
Sure it sucks for survivor who gets tunneled but I am more for making the experience for them better than removing the playstyle altogether. Removing depips and maybe better BP distribution for tunneled survivor would help with that
2 -
If killers could undo finished gens, then that would be a fair comparison to undoing hook stages.
Boiled down, hook stages and gens are nothing more than progression towards the end of the match. Each survivor has 3 stages and the killer has 5 stages (6 if you count the endgame).
Does it suck when a match is very short? Yes, and it sucks for both sides. You can´t solve the problem of tunneling as long as both sides do it equally.
12 -
Tunneling is fair and unfair at the same time, mostly depending on how does each player treat the match and its outcome.
If the survivors play as a team and see the game as a team game, then they're gonna accept it for what it is.. But the moment one or more survivors get entitled and start thinking along the lines that „I shall be able to play the game, no other player shall have the option to ruin it for me!“ or otherwise disagree with the killer's approach, then there's gonna be a clash of opinions. Misunderstanding, otherwise the survivor would've accepted it for what it is under the conditions that the killer is clearly lacking hooks, running out of time, and needs to get back into the match ASAP.
However, I see tunneling as quite a receipt for losing and problematic feature at the same time. It is especially problematic in the lower MMR, where survivors wanna heal at all costs and use their precious time for unnecessary tasks, as the killer is more likely to commit to chases rather than switch targets in case of encountering obstalces posing difficulties - It's better for survivors to hop onto the generators in such cases, but that changes once the killers gather some experiences and know when to break off the chase to catch the greedy and unprepared survivors and punish them for not healing themselves.
Once we get to the high MMR with experienced survivors and other veteran players where they know what they're doing, tunneling is unfortunately a must and the necessary mean to secure a victory.. Because playing 3 Vs. 1 is the only way to get more than two sacrifices against such well coordinated SWF premades, regardless of the map, add-ons, and RNG factors because the killer is obviously the nurse who ignores those RNG factors, besides the percentages to trigger skill checks and hook spawns.
However, as a casual player, I do see more killers resorting to tunneling because they're inexperienced. They don't know when to break off the chase and start chasing some easier prey upon creating a dead zone or two, luring them in if the situation allows it, and so it's easier for them to just chase that injured survivor to enter the mentioned 3 Vs. 1 scenario to have three or all of the survivors sacrificed by the time they get their second or third generator done. This is, unfortunately, even more present with the game being F2P on various platforms, as oppossed to what it has used to be when it was only available on Steam with much less competitive playerbase.
The difference between the casual playerbase consisting of veterans and the modern new playerbase consisting of young people with too much free time and energy on their hands is, we do carry matches by experiences and outsmarting opponents, whereas those competitive players do carry matches by exploiting every single weakness within the players' roaster and treating each match like a World Tournament or something..
1 -
My guy thinks that survivors can reverse their hook states if given enough time
5 -
really don't see the point of repeating what someone else already said.
it's a strategy you can use.
sometimes you have to use it to catch up.
survivors don't ignore a 90%gen and go for a fresh one in name of "fairness", why should the killer have to ignore the death hook survivor and go for a fresh one?
it's just part of the game.
it doesn't have to be fun to be fair.
etc...
and I really have no reason to see tunneling as unfair.
unfun? depends on the person as the first reply showed, but I can actually see the point of it not being fun.
mean? sure.
unnecessary? ok.
but unfair? no.
2 -
the group escape rate would improve so... yes. it would.
2 -
Yes. The killer is another player with free will. If they want to focus out a single survivor, they are allowed to do so.
7 -
As long as the game is based on kills and escapes tunneling is fair.
Do i like tunneling at 4-5 gens off the hook without going after another person.. no i do not. Do i get so mad about it that i throw a tandrum and flip my desk.. nope.
Also not all tunneling is done to " ruin the survivor experience in the game". Sometimes the killer has no other choice but to return the pressure back to the survivors thus tunneling out the 1 thats been hooked before.
Survivors yell tunneler nowdays while taking BT bodyblocks and literally running straight to the killer after being unhooked and expecting the killer not to go after them.
I personally only see it as tunneling when killer 3 hooks 1 survivor before 2 gens are done. Survivors need to drop this "killers need to mind my fun" mentality as well. Survivors very rarely mind the killers fun.
4 -
BHVR takes blame and shame for what exactly? Let's hear a really well articulated reason why tunneling should be removed from the game. "Because it ruins my fun" is not an answer.
Let's hear it.
4 -
As much as people dislike hearing it: the opposing player is not, never was and, due to the subjective nature of it, cannot be responsible for your fun. It is not, nor can it be their responsibility to make sure you get to play the game beyond a point you deem acceptable (a point they have no way of knowing). It's a competitive game - only you can make that happen.
Perks and inbuilt protections exist that make it much harder and much less rewarding to tunnel, but a lot of Survivors I've seen (as Killer or not) think they can run no anti-tunnel perks at all and somehow be perfectly fine. No, instead, the most popular perk is Windows of Opportunity - a glorified SatNav. The meta is clearly built around people trying to avoid being hit or downed in the first place rather than dealing with the consequences of it inevitably happening. The majority of players are essentially running glass cannon builds and complaining when they get shattered.
You can't argue anti-tunnelling perks are bad or useless, because Spine Chill and Self-Care are sitting in the top 10 - clearly this community doesn't shy away from niche, possibly useless perks if there's a chance they'll do something useful one out of ten times. If tunnelling was so prevalent, there wouldn't be a preponderance of non-tunnelling perks in the top 10. Even if they were bad perks, with tunnelling being as bad as it supposedly is, there'd be more than Dead Hard scraping in at number ten.
This tells me tunnelling isn't A) as common as some would have you believe, and B) an overwhelmingly unfair tactic that most people are worried about enough to take measures against. The 22% of people running Adrenaline are so unconcerned about tunnelling that they elect to play the majority of the game with 3 perks.
Ultimately, everyone is playing the game for their own amusement, for their own fun; expecting others to go out of their way to play it for yours is naive at best. You want fun in a competitive game, you need to safeguard it yourself, because no-one else can be expected to do it for you. No-one else can do it for you.
11 -
Aaand where did i say that?
2 -
If the game would be focused on getting hooks rather than kills, both tunneling and camping would be much less viable ways to play and more healthy for both sides.
However, I think most people including devs themselfs like Killing being the main objective for killers, so this will never change. Even if you nerf it, Killers will still proxy camp or tunnel only 2 players to get them ASAP from game, etc.
If you ever want tunneling being not good, we need to change the core objective of the game and balance it around it. I don't think this will happen tho.
0 -
Camping leads to tunneling.
Camping is the problem and always will be.
1 -
They sorta can. If I potentially camp a survivor (killer equivalent of working on a gen) and they get rescued at the 58s of hook stage one, I am thrown back an entire minute of my work, even if I managed to down and hook that survivor again. The two tasks are fundamentally different, of course, so you can't do one on one equivalencies, but this sorta illustrates the concept. A finished gen can never be regressed, though, the same as hook stages and deaths can't be reversed. Yet. But I hope that this stand as solid pillars of DBDs foundation.
5 -
Um, no. How that usually ends is with the person I'm tunneling downed and 2-3 newly injured survivors who now can't risk bodyblocking me when I get to the hook, and if they don't immediately run off to heal, they might get downed and hooked somewhere, too (or just slugged to bleed out). God help them if I was running Forced Penance.
They accomplish nothing (because the survivor did not get away and never does), and they give me free slowdown by not doing gens and forcing themselves to heal.
Trying a stunt like that just once can very easily lose them the entire game, and if they're all constantly doing it the entire time I'm trying to tunnel someone out, it's a guaranteed win.
0 -
Fair? Yes, it is.
Once heard it was like button mashing on a fighting game and we think it's an accurate description. Easy to do, can nab a "win", shows what kind of player they are. Tunneling has some needs (and stupid plays must be punished) but the problem (to us atleast) is everyone defaults to it even when it's not needed. It's lose a gen and "ohh no I'm being gen rushed I need to tunnel".
0 -
but a survivor loses a hook state the second you put them on a hook? downing a survivor and getting them to hook is for killers what finding a gen and hitting skill checks until it pops is for survivors; camping them to second stage would be like if you could repair the same generator twice for extra credit. saying otherwise is just cope for people who want to justify lazy gameplay
if a gen is at 90%, there is a possibility it gets kicked and regresses, possibly even back to zero. finishing the gen gets it to a stage where the progress cannot be regressed any further. for your comparison between "tunneling someone out of the game" and "finishing a gen that's nearly done" to be analogous, the progress on getting a survivor out of the game also needs to be reversible. therefore, either you think that survivor hook states can be reversed, or you are intentionally making a bad comparison in bad faith. since it is against the rules to assume other people are acting in bad faith on this forum (and since you do seem to be genuinely expressing an opinion), i am forced to conclude it's the first of those two; that you think hook states can be reversed.
3 -
Tunneling is fair, it's just annoying and unpleasant to go up against. But it just makes sense to do it. Well, not necessarily from the first hook at 4-5 gens, but what's to stop anyone?
The biggest gripe most seem to have about it isn't even it's existence, but more that it's the most effective way to kill fast AND the easiest. Also that there are few counters other than having a well coordinated SWF or a random SoloQ that probably just follows the Killers around with a flashlight all day and never touches gens.
I think we are too far gone to ever really remove tunneling completely. There just needs to be a way that it becomes less rewarding while also making other aspects better in QoL, more fun and more rewarding for Killers.
0 -
If you just let the person get tunneled, the game is a 3v1.
3v1 is harder for survivors than a 4v1.
It's simple math. Most times, some altruism is required for the best result.
The longer the 4 survivors are alive, the best for the survivor team.
No one can force you to not tunnel, usually.
But reseting the chase and bloodlust for the other survivor is sometimes enough to waste enough of your time
1 -
How would tunneling be unfair? It's not against any rules and any killer can do it.
2 -
The comparison is, that survivors will stay near to a almost finished gen and wait for the killer to leave, in order to finish it. If a killer does wait next to his objective, its called camping. One is seen as bad, while the other one is seen as normal progression of the match. But both sides would be doing their objective. When they could easily go for a different objective instead.
As long as people don´t understand, that both sides are doing their objective "efficiently". Nothing will change. A killer who has only 1 gen left will camp&tunnel in order to get a survivor out. Because if he doesn´t, the match is over for him. Just as survivors that have been all injured and only have 1 gen left to repair. They will not heal but focus on finishing that one gen. Before its over for them.
3 -
The longer the 4 survivors are alive, the best for the survivor team.
Technically, the faster the game end, the best for survivor team.
Despite all 4 being alive. They may already use their perks (example for DS, Unbreakable, Lucky break...any perks that have limited use), already use their items, already use pallets, already have a few hook stage.
Survivors start the game being strongest, and rapidly drops their resources the longer the match is, even if no one dies. Killers keep the strength exactly the same throughout the match.
1 -
Tunneling only fair for new Alien, when he crawls in his tunnels. In all other cases it's cheap cheese tactic, because it destroys weaker teams and completely backfires against decent teams.
So no, "noob-stomper" never fair.
1 -
Tunneling is akin to spawn-killing, which typically is at least dealt with in various games with different mechanics. In MOBAs you have a 'fountain laser' or some powerful turret that kills most characters faster than the attempted spawn killer can kill the respawning character. Round based shooters like CS spawn you cross-map with 0 potential for spawn-killing (unless you were to include the risk/reward of rushing an open midlane). (Good) Deathmatch shooters have spawn invuln, that typically lasts longer or drops earlier depending on the spawning players' actions (kind of like Conspicuous Actions). Most games have a good mechanic to fix this problem of fun, or have iterated on it over the years. Even if you were to consider basekit BT as 'spawn invuln', then shouldn't it function like Mettle of Man instead? No Deep Wound, full damage immunity? As is, if you get hit in basekit BT, you get denied a potential DH/OTR as well.
Personally I would fix 'spawn-killing' styled tunneling by making the ally unhooked (no Kobes) Survivor invisible (like Spirit phasing), silent, no scratch marks or blood and immune to damage for the basekit BT 10s, which ends early if they do a Conspicuous Action. If they are being hard tunneled off of hook, they don't lose their Endurance potential, and the Killer has to actively search a ~40m radius from hook. Alternatively the Killer could just go for the unhooking Survivor instead.
As far as Meta perks being "don't go down in the first place" perks, I'd say that's because it's pretty easy to prove you can win with a facecamping Bubba with stacked perks in the current version of the game. If you go down and get facecamped or even just a gen greed punish 2nd stage proxy camp, the Killer wins. A stacked facecamper (Deadlock+No Way Out being at the core) can easily 3k minimum. No skill other than 3 hooks and 3 kills. That is the consequence of kill based matchmaking incentivizing tunneling and camping, instead of the alternatives of hook based match making, or skill based matching. If Killers were encouraged to spread the pressure, the meta perks instead would be that of recovering from the pressure dealt. Heal perks and better rewards on unhook and other altruistic perks would look better. Similarly since getting hooked is such a death sentence in the realm of tunneling, Survs are faced with 'the only winning move is not to play', in the sense that getting hooked could mean you are going to death spiral out of control and lose. If anti-tunnel perks had teeth, they wouldn't be so incentivized to never go down in the first place.
As far as people using bad/useless perks, Spine Chill during ~2/3rds of the timeframe wasn't useless (it was nerfed in 7.1.0, or end of July), as it gave you a distance tracker for the Killer. This could essentially let you have wallhacks at tall loops to know which way the Killer is moving, but that required a decent amount of skill and knowledge to pull off. It also still had anti-stealth functionality baked in, so jumpscare-averse Survs could use it for that. Self-Care's self-sufficiency for some reason is very big in Asiatic regions, as mentioned in some dev stream and by others on the forums. Both SC's are available to new players also, as Claudette is free, and Spine Chill is a general perk, so both get their stats inflated from newbies.
As to your conclusions about frequency and fairness I'd say right and wrong. Frequency, most certainly this is negativity bias. Someone has a bad match AND they got tunneled, so tunneling takes the blame. To some extent it is a legit complaint, but probably overblown in general. As far as fairness due to people not bringing countermeasures, I don't think you've used 3s DS to see how useless it is as an anti-tunnel countermeasure. I'd say it buys 3s stun, 3s pickup animation, and 5s of instadowning them afterwards. 11s isn't a good value proposition for general use of a perk designed around countering tunneling. As far as OTR goes, if the Killer was going to tunnel, they can run up to you and from the prior chase they know if you brought Iron Will or not, then they can hit you off hook if you are silent, negating the perk entirely. If the Killer is powerful enough, they will hit you off hook in the 10s anyways because they can shred through the Endurance without a problem. That makes OTR only useful in the niche circumstance where the Killer plans on Tunneling AFTER the Surv gets healed, but BEFORE they do a Conspicuous Action. That happens at most only one time per 1 in 20 games in my experience. Again, the value proposition of 5% of matches getting an OTR Endurance proc for 1 Surv (that might not even be you) isn't good value.
I agree with the conclusion, you have to work for your own fun. When there is a core flaw of the game, people complain on the forums to get it fixed. They are doing exactly what you are asking of them by complaining about tunneling on the forums.
1 -
Outdated mechanic typically means there is a better solution to the problem the mechanic was trying to solve or the problem is no longer present.
3 -
that too. in most cases.
but sometimes, the game swings back into the survivors hands if they take the time to reset, or the killer just ######### up somewhere.
sometimes the killer gets the advantage on a short game, and sometimes the survivors get the advantage on a longer game.
Killers keep the strength exactly the same throughout the match.
this depends on the killer. nemesis and myers being the obvious examples
1 -
Still not a good comparing these two.
Or is the killer out if 1 gen is completed?
The thing is, tunneling prevents players from playing the game. That is the thing, why tunneling is so bad in the first place.
A killer can turn the game the whole game. A dead survivor is dead.
3 -
Players make mistake losing the game, not survivors take time to reset or killer making a mistake.
Killer gets advantage on a short game if survivors make multiple mistake early game and ends up get half the hook count in 5min. I dont see how killer actually get advantage in a short game case beside that.
The same to survivors, I dont see how 4 survivors with 6-7 hooks count already, items depleted, most pallets are gone, grouped together to heal each other while Gens get regressed to 0 because no one are doing it, actual get advantage when the match is already reach to 15min.
Myers is the only one, I dont see how Nemesis getting weaker in end game? Nemesis's power is designed to "feel" hes getting stronger in late game for how his M2 work: short range, takes 3 hits to down -> to longer range, break pallet, takes 2 hits to down (when there is no vaccin left). Zombies are also patrol between Gens, the less Gens, the shorter path they patrol, the shorter time for them to complete a lap between Gens.
1
