Do you think tunnelling is fair?

I consider tunneling a part of the game. If you are being tunneled it's important to get away off hooks as best you can and hide, make it hard for the killer to find you. Similarly if an ally is being tunneled, as a survivor you should try and help with body blocks, flashlight saves, sabo's etc.

Though, survivors could use some help in this department. The general community consensus, even from killer side is to bring back DS 5s stun as the anti-tunnel perk.... or at least 4s.

The other nerfs were very much warranted, and DS is setup to very much be a fair anti-tunnel perk, but the 3s stun nerf was overkill and made the perks value plummet to being barely usable.... if you don't get tunneled it does nothing, and it doesn't really have a massive value if you do get tunneled.

Even if it isn't the stun duration, the conditions and single use on it make it pretty damned hard to abuse... but it needs something extra to really give the survivor a strong chance of getting away after the stun.

It varies.

Hard tunneling the first player you down when you realise that they can't run chase? Pretty unfun scummy move. But it guarantees an easy game. Ruins the game for that player.

Midgame, you are 2/3gens down and have the choice of pursuing the unhooked surv with 2 hooks states who is 8 secs away from an easy 1 hit down and kill, or the uninjured surv with 1 hook state. You need that pressure to keep the balance on your side. I know what my choice would be and I've done it many times. That kind of tunneling is just smart play, plus the surv has had time to actually play and achieve something.

But in my experience surv players usually cry foul when they get tunneled at any point. I once tunneled a vittorio with 1 gen left, one dead player, 2 double hooked hadn't seen her all game. I tunneled them for 3 full hooks states late game because i wanted to let the other 2 go.

That vittorio was PISSED. 🤣 got a lot of hatemail for that one. They even got a friend of theirs to message me saying I'd been reported to bhvr with video evidence 😂

People will always tunnel, but I do think perks for hooking unique survivors should be more plentiful and stronger. This is one of the best solutions I can think of.

It should not be removed but it should be harder to do. Currently, tunneling is not only the most effective way to win, it is by far the easiest.

It's not about you explaining us of how it's fair or unfair, but rather about you providing your thoughts onto the matter, regardless of the obvious or not obvious facts. It could be as simple as „Tunneling is very unfun for both sides, but many times necessary to ensure having a chance of getting back into the match. There's no need to tunnel if I supply myself with the necessary generator regression META perks, though.“, or as complicated as typing down an entire essay of over five hundreds words, explaining all your reasonings and describing various scenarios, such as some of the players pretending that tunneling is everything that they see as an unfun thing to encounter.

the group escape rate would improve so... yes. it would.

As long as the game is based on kills and escapes tunneling is fair.

Do i like tunneling at 4-5 gens off the hook without going after another person.. no i do not. Do i get so mad about it that i throw a tandrum and flip my desk.. nope.

Also not all tunneling is done to " ruin the survivor experience in the game". Sometimes the killer has no other choice but to return the pressure back to the survivors thus tunneling out the 1 thats been hooked before.

Survivors yell tunneler nowdays while taking BT bodyblocks and literally running straight to the killer after being unhooked and expecting the killer not to go after them.

I personally only see it as tunneling when killer 3 hooks 1 survivor before 2 gens are done. Survivors need to drop this "killers need to mind my fun" mentality as well. Survivors very rarely mind the killers fun.

If the game would be focused on getting hooks rather than kills, both tunneling and camping would be much less viable ways to play and more healthy for both sides.

However, I think most people including devs themselfs like Killing being the main objective for killers, so this will never change. Even if you nerf it, Killers will still proxy camp or tunnel only 2 players to get them ASAP from game, etc.

If you ever want tunneling being not good, we need to change the core objective of the game and balance it around it. I don't think this will happen tho.

Fair? Yes, it is.

Once heard it was like button mashing on a fighting game and we think it's an accurate description. Easy to do, can nab a "win", shows what kind of player they are. Tunneling has some needs (and stupid plays must be punished) but the problem (to us atleast) is everyone defaults to it even when it's not needed. It's lose a gen and "ohh no I'm being gen rushed I need to tunnel".

Tunneling is fair, it's just annoying and unpleasant to go up against. But it just makes sense to do it. Well, not necessarily from the first hook at 4-5 gens, but what's to stop anyone?

The biggest gripe most seem to have about it isn't even it's existence, but more that it's the most effective way to kill fast AND the easiest. Also that there are few counters other than having a well coordinated SWF or a random SoloQ that probably just follows the Killers around with a flashlight all day and never touches gens.

I think we are too far gone to ever really remove tunneling completely. There just needs to be a way that it becomes less rewarding while also making other aspects better in QoL, more fun and more rewarding for Killers.

How would tunneling be unfair? It's not against any rules and any killer can do it.

Technically, the faster the game end, the best for survivor team.

Despite all 4 being alive. They may already use their perks (example for DS, Unbreakable, Lucky break...any perks that have limited use), already use their items, already use pallets, already have a few hook stage.

Survivors start the game being strongest, and rapidly drops their resources the longer the match is, even if no one dies. Killers keep the strength exactly the same throughout the match.

Tunneling is akin to spawn-killing, which typically is at least dealt with in various games with different mechanics. In MOBAs you have a 'fountain laser' or some powerful turret that kills most characters faster than the attempted spawn killer can kill the respawning character. Round based shooters like CS spawn you cross-map with 0 potential for spawn-killing (unless you were to include the risk/reward of rushing an open midlane). (Good) Deathmatch shooters have spawn invuln, that typically lasts longer or drops earlier depending on the spawning players' actions (kind of like Conspicuous Actions). Most games have a good mechanic to fix this problem of fun, or have iterated on it over the years. Even if you were to consider basekit BT as 'spawn invuln', then shouldn't it function like Mettle of Man instead? No Deep Wound, full damage immunity? As is, if you get hit in basekit BT, you get denied a potential DH/OTR as well.

Personally I would fix 'spawn-killing' styled tunneling by making the ally unhooked (no Kobes) Survivor invisible (like Spirit phasing), silent, no scratch marks or blood and immune to damage for the basekit BT 10s, which ends early if they do a Conspicuous Action. If they are being hard tunneled off of hook, they don't lose their Endurance potential, and the Killer has to actively search a ~40m radius from hook. Alternatively the Killer could just go for the unhooking Survivor instead.

As far as Meta perks being "don't go down in the first place" perks, I'd say that's because it's pretty easy to prove you can win with a facecamping Bubba with stacked perks in the current version of the game. If you go down and get facecamped or even just a gen greed punish 2nd stage proxy camp, the Killer wins. A stacked facecamper (Deadlock+No Way Out being at the core) can easily 3k minimum. No skill other than 3 hooks and 3 kills. That is the consequence of kill based matchmaking incentivizing tunneling and camping, instead of the alternatives of hook based match making, or skill based matching. If Killers were encouraged to spread the pressure, the meta perks instead would be that of recovering from the pressure dealt. Heal perks and better rewards on unhook and other altruistic perks would look better. Similarly since getting hooked is such a death sentence in the realm of tunneling, Survs are faced with 'the only winning move is not to play', in the sense that getting hooked could mean you are going to death spiral out of control and lose. If anti-tunnel perks had teeth, they wouldn't be so incentivized to never go down in the first place.

As far as people using bad/useless perks, Spine Chill during ~2/3rds of the timeframe wasn't useless (it was nerfed in 7.1.0, or end of July), as it gave you a distance tracker for the Killer. This could essentially let you have wallhacks at tall loops to know which way the Killer is moving, but that required a decent amount of skill and knowledge to pull off. It also still had anti-stealth functionality baked in, so jumpscare-averse Survs could use it for that. Self-Care's self-sufficiency for some reason is very big in Asiatic regions, as mentioned in some dev stream and by others on the forums. Both SC's are available to new players also, as Claudette is free, and Spine Chill is a general perk, so both get their stats inflated from newbies.

As to your conclusions about frequency and fairness I'd say right and wrong. Frequency, most certainly this is negativity bias. Someone has a bad match AND they got tunneled, so tunneling takes the blame. To some extent it is a legit complaint, but probably overblown in general. As far as fairness due to people not bringing countermeasures, I don't think you've used 3s DS to see how useless it is as an anti-tunnel countermeasure. I'd say it buys 3s stun, 3s pickup animation, and 5s of instadowning them afterwards. 11s isn't a good value proposition for general use of a perk designed around countering tunneling. As far as OTR goes, if the Killer was going to tunnel, they can run up to you and from the prior chase they know if you brought Iron Will or not, then they can hit you off hook if you are silent, negating the perk entirely. If the Killer is powerful enough, they will hit you off hook in the 10s anyways because they can shred through the Endurance without a problem. That makes OTR only useful in the niche circumstance where the Killer plans on Tunneling AFTER the Surv gets healed, but BEFORE they do a Conspicuous Action. That happens at most only one time per 1 in 20 games in my experience. Again, the value proposition of 5% of matches getting an OTR Endurance proc for 1 Surv (that might not even be you) isn't good value.

I agree with the conclusion, you have to work for your own fun. When there is a core flaw of the game, people complain on the forums to get it fixed. They are doing exactly what you are asking of them by complaining about tunneling on the forums.

that too. in most cases.

but sometimes, the game swings back into the survivors hands if they take the time to reset, or the killer just ######### up somewhere.

sometimes the killer gets the advantage on a short game, and sometimes the survivors get the advantage on a longer game.

this depends on the killer. nemesis and myers being the obvious examples

Players make mistake losing the game, not survivors take time to reset or killer making a mistake.

Killer gets advantage on a short game if survivors make multiple mistake early game and ends up get half the hook count in 5min. I dont see how killer actually get advantage in a short game case beside that.

The same to survivors, I dont see how 4 survivors with 6-7 hooks count already, items depleted, most pallets are gone, grouped together to heal each other while Gens get regressed to 0 because no one are doing it, actual get advantage when the match is already reach to 15min.

Myers is the only one, I dont see how Nemesis getting weaker in end game? Nemesis's power is designed to "feel" hes getting stronger in late game for how his M2 work: short range, takes 3 hits to down -> to longer range, break pallet, takes 2 hits to down (when there is no vaccin left). Zombies are also patrol between Gens, the less Gens, the shorter path they patrol, the shorter time for them to complete a lap between Gens.