Changing the idea of “Winning”
So the idea of winning is pretty cut and dry.
Surv: GET OUT
Killer: DIE
but this causes a lot of community infighting and hateful ideologies towards their counterparts. So I actually spent the better part of a month thinking of how to change those ideas. Lore wise it works too.
Just make If feel like the killers are winning when they do things that would help “feed” the Entity. And I’m not saying extra blood points, make the end game or mid game feel like it matters that you chased, gen patrolled, hooked, or destroyed objects. All things that feed the killers desire while scaring survivors.
It can be as simple as adding small changes to how the mid game feels. Perhaps some vaults suddenly closed off for twenty seconds, maybe the killers TR for ten seconds is map wide, or if you really want to something fun you could have the Entity slam all the lockers on the map all at once. That would scare someone.
Make it feel like if a killer got a 0K but did their best to complete their “objectives” then they aren’t losers but playing their part and will do better next time.
Survivors get a lot of thrill as they play and it looks enjoyable for them (Unless it’s two certain killers) and I’m just wondering why killers just don’t get a slight boost to their confidence after a no kill but high thrill game. They did their job for the Entity, they fed it the emotions they caused.
Perhaps I’m over thinking it but for the side that must play alone I think that the most crucial part of the game should always be “are both sides having fun”.
A fun game is a won game in my opinion. If you just remove the stress from the killers shoulders I think the game would become much more fun for everyone. Survivors would probably see these “F tier” or “C tier” killers more because people would play what they like. Giving them more to see and go against.
Im sorry that this became a rant but I want to ask everyone, not as a killer or a survivor but as a player. Would you rather win, or would you rather have fun almost every match?
Comments
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People always see escape or 4K as winning, you cant change that.
A killer can play 10-12 hooks for 4K, the moment they're matched against better team, they will do 6 hooks for 4K. If its out of their control and they cant 4K with least hooks possible, they would play A-S tier killers.
Devs cant balance an average killer to casually 4K the best team. Its only up to killer players understand where they stand in MMR and accept 60% kill rate.
On survivors part, you may easy to see survivors start to do totem, chest, attempt to get in a chase if there is 1 Gen left while killers have 1-2 hooks. Its not that survivors only want to do Gen, its just the nature of the game that if 1 survivor dies at 2 Gens left, that will be 3K and a hatch escape, which at that point, its pointless to do Gen.
For me, getting 1 hook before the first Gen done is a fair start to both side. Sadly if killer decides to camp, that would guarantee 2K even if other survivors rush Gens.
Then killers just tell survivors to "rush Gen", which survivors do nowaday. No you dont want to tell survivors to rush Gen, I find its as stupid as survivors telling killers to "pressure", the best pressure in game is tunneling, which you dont want killers to do it.
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I've been defending this so much
A "win" should not be downing all 4 survivors at once in the first 3 minutes of game
A win should be having a long game, hooking many survivors as possible, despite all of them escaping
Same with survivors, a win should not be just doing gens and escaping without even seeing the killer
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What can add to the frustration is what progress toward the objective feels like. Progress toward the objective for a survivor doesn’t change anything about the killer’s gameplay. They can still do whatever they were going to do in the first place. Progress for a killer means another player is dead and kicked from the match.
Given that this isn’t really a premade team kind of game (or SWFs wouldn’t be such a pain point - the game would be designed around them), it’s great that my team mates got out but I don’t really care from an enjoyment perspective.
I don’t really have a solution as it seems inherent in the game’s design that one side is always going to have the tools to make the other side experience frustration rivaling Dark Souls. Survivors need to be able to out-pace a killer downing people in generator progress to have a reasonable chance to escape. Killers need to be able to kill players faster than they can complete generators and open the exit gate to be able to get at least a couple of sacrifices in. They’re inherently opposing design requirements.
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But the idea of winning isn't quite that cut and dry. Want to raise or lower your MMR? Then yes escape or kill is what you do for that. This will win you a number rating that nobody can see and that barely functions to do its purpose.
What else is there to determine a win? There is a scoreboard, usually in a game whoever has the highest score wins. But some people don't believe that with this game. So what is a win then? At this point it's what the player decides for themselves is a win. For me, the way I win now is to not to play the game at all.
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Here’s the thing.
most killers don’t care about winning, it’s just the ongoing toxicity at the end of the game. Aka survivors tbagging at exit gates, staying at the gate until the timer is almost at 0. Tbagging at hatch until you go up to them.
it happens every game is annoying.
i can’t say much about survivors since I’m still getting use to them
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Players used to be able to equate pips to winning/losing before MMR. You technically still can, but its more of a self imposed challenge than anything now.
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It's a nice and empathetic way of looking at this conundrum. I'm not sure it's that much of a significant contribution towards the hatefulness that's about though.
The win conditions really only count towards MMR. Otherwise anybody can choose what a win is to them. The problem arises when it comes to general behaviours.
For example, a killer could be seen to have won a trial with the 3k. However, if the fourth finds the hatch and decides to teabag and spam vaults because they found the randomized hatch spawn first then this taints the trial and can give the killer a bad taste in their mouth. Ironically, if the fourth survivor finds the hatch first and takes it right away, this probably won't affect the killer.
The same can be said if a killer is mocking a survivor, but the point is that it's not the win conditions that are the problem; it's the attitudes of the players. Whilst I like your positive thinking of how to improve the bitterness and toxicity, of someone is going to be a dick, they will be a dick.
It's a deep issue, especially because some will hide behind the blind belief that it's which side you play that dictates the attitude, when the reality it's individual. People just like labels to simplify things, even if it's illogical.
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We're kinda confused at the points so apologies if we're going off the mark.
Everyone has their own definition of "winning" here. Some see nothing less than a 4k as a win while others are happy at 8 hooks and 4E. There's no practical way to change everyone's mind to unite.
What we're seeing is you'd want something to happen during the trial thats based on what/how the killer did? Cause that would be a awesome idea but not really sure how that changes what a "win" is with people.
Your also lumping survivor experiences together. For our group atleast it's hard to find a genuine thrill as survivor due to 80ish% of killers running the same thing (or same thing for that specific killer in demo doggo) and those rare ones that don't have a high chance of camping or tunneling at the start for zipp reason.
Your definitely not alone in thinking both sides should have fun, but at this point, many are convinced the only way to have fun is a decisive win.
Our vote is to have fun each match and bend hell to get it. Others don't seem to like that.
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I like the way you think :) If the game was more like this it would be a lot more fun!
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It can go from “kill them quickly” to “Keep them occupied” which sounds like a less stressful issue in my book.
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It'd be nice, but until the devs update the game so that things like hooks/chase/gen kicks/object destruction/hits are cumulatively valued towards a killer win as much as a kill, and chase/gen repair/heals/totem destruction are cumulatively valued as much as an escape for a survivor win, it's really a non-starter. The game was created with these win conditions, and it hasn't changed drastically since launch.
You can change your personal perception of a "win" to fit whatever you need it to (and that's often the best course of action for your own sanity), but it won't change how the game works or the way the majority of the players play it.
I'm hoping BHVR does perform these changes to the game, as it will be a huge benefit across the board for everyone. But since we are where we are this far into the game's life and nothing on the horizon but the occasional band-aid, I don't foresee the game doing anything but becoming more stressful/toxic for both sides as time moves on.
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