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Tile fairness for m1 killers
Comments
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Yes. Tiles are too strong at the moment.
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I've got 2.7k hours in the game and also enjoy playing M1 killers. Your experience is one that I share. Unfortunately, it doesn't look likely that BHVR will make the necessary changes to make M1 killers viable against efficient and decent looping survivors.
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For a tile to be fair, it has to be mindgameable. People's refusal to accept this is why every map is terrible.
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Each pallet broken extends a chase by MINIMUM, 10 seconds. 2.7 seconds to break, survivor gets 10.8 meters of distance, killer takes 10 seconds to get into range to lunge. This assumes that survivor is touching the pallet as the killer starts to break it and runs away. For pallets like shack pallet, where you can predrop and just run, you'll get FAR more distance out of it. And that is assuming they don't have another pallet or loop nearby, which they almost always do.
During your first chase, if you predrop 2 god pallets without getting hit, and your teammates are doing gens, you are guaranteed to get 3 gens done during that first chase.
It isn't just about a single 1v1, this is the problem. People also underestimate how much time things take a killer. If you do the math and look at a scenario of a basic killer and survivor scenario, where the terror radius shows up and the survivor starts to run in a straight line away from the killer. Even if they use 0 pallets, 0 windows, 0 perks, 0 anything, it will take the killer 55 seconds to down that survivor and hook them. Throw in those 2 MINIMUM pallet breaks of 10 seconds each? And you are gonna lose 3 gens before that survivor is on a hook.
You can actually see how dumb this game can be by just playing a custom game with trapper against bots, and give those bots MFT, and a toolbox. Don't use your power, and watch how you probably can't even kill one before the gens get done unless you exploit their AI to make them goto unsafe areas.
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Because of the gen to chase speed ratio, a battle of attrition is the only one you can win. Most pallets are safe pallets these days, and many are even god pallets. They can't be mindgamed and you MUST break them. During which the survivor is gaining 10-15 seconds of distance on you. 10-15 second with 3 other survivors on gens, that have probably already been on gens for a good 20-30 seconds since the game started. Then you factor in the speedboost they get, catching up, downing them, picking them up, walking to a hook, hooking them.
People really underestimate how much time a killer spends doing things. Do you know how long it takes to hook a survivor, not even factoring in the chase or anything like that?
2.7 second attack animation + 3 second pickup animation + 8 seconds (half wiggle bar) walking to a hook + 1.5 second hooking animation. That's a full 15.2 seconds of dead time where the other 3 survivors can be on a gen. Survivors need to repair 450 seconds of a generator time total. Which means just PICKING UP that first survivor and hooking them, finishes 10% of the survivors objective. Which is insane. That doesn't even factor in chasing the survivor, dealing with pallets, looping, windows, nothing. That's just, they are on the ground and now you can pick them up.
Meanwhile you need to also look around for other survivors going for flashlight saves, or pallet saves. Or you need to "fiddle" with the survivor on the ground because they teleport around for some reason.
And people expect killers to do that without camping, without tunneling, without slugging, and without creating deadzones and delaying the game as long as possible, a full 12 times?
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There are some spawning issues with certain tiles connecting to each other, I think probably Garden of Joy has one of the worst examples across from the main building. I don't think any tiles individually are too strong though.
I would be okay with the breakable wall being added to all shacks but I really don't think tiles being strong is that big of an issue. Especially if they are one time spawns like Killer Shack.
Pallets are a limited resource on 99% of maps and once something like shack pallet, for example, is down the tiles loses a lot of its power, it is still good, but not impossible, nor is it impossible with the pallet up.
I think a lot of it right now is MFT causing M1 killers to struggle on the more powerful tiles.
Trapper I am not sure, you can basically shut down loops with his power, Pig I can see how it would be difficult, but regardless if you are having trouble at shack or otherwise you are more than likely respecting to much or reacting too late. Or are potentially trying to mindgame a downed shack pallet, which genuinely is impossible.
Bring something like bamboozle or brutal to make up for flaws in killer kits/to help deal with pallets if they are your main issue.
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Yes you can wait in shack. (Again, i should really just take a clip the next time i get survivors doing this stuff)
Jungle gyms are very unfair when the pallet is dropped. Just camp it if you feel the need to play safe. Where are the long tiles on coldwind fair? Where is the snowmachine on Ormond fair? Where is amost every pallet on the game fair?
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Nice to see im not alone
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Im sorry but no.
First: im not respecting any pallets if i know that the survivor is good. I run straigt into most of them. I know that im only wasting time respecting them.
Second: my reaction time is on point.
Third: I never.... try to mindgame a shack pallet.
This is not a skill issue. I played m1 killer for the majority of my playing time. This is how it is. Again, i hope we are at a point where we can talk about tile fairness in dbd. But i guess we are still at the "git good"- part.
Also. What 5th perk slot can i fill with bamboozle as a pig player?
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I'm not really saying "git good" I am sure you are a good player, I am just saying that majority rules that something like Killer Shack isn't an unbeatable tile. If you want to make it easier, bring something like bamboozle, force the pallet drop and break it, then you can chase it way easier.
You will have to sacrifice another perk to not have to deal with part of more difficult tiles. I run it on Hillbilly for that exact reason. It works practically identically on any killer to get rid of pallets at stronger tiles.
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Again, I'm not saying shack isn't strong, but it is moreso the connecting tiles around it that let survivors greed and keep shack up. It isn't a tile issue, it is a map tile spawn issue.
The shack on something like shelter woods aren't nearly as strong because it way harder to greed and still get somewhere else. Distance wise you need to drop it to move somewhere safer.
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That's my whole point though.
A tile should be playable by default. The killer should hava a chance to get a hit.
The fact that you have to use a Perk just to get the pallet faster is honestly just proving how unfair this tile is.
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The tile is playable by default, having to use a perk slot to force the pallet faster isn't bad design.
The ability to remove good tile pallets quicker SHOULD be a perk, that is an insanely strong ability. Survivor resources are limited, part of the survivor gameplay loop is preservation of these resources, that is why loops are reuseable, if you want to ignore that, then you should have to run a perk to do it, or you should have to play out the tile.
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95% is extremely over the bar. I can run M1 killers pretty easily most of the time and I can tell you right now I'm nowhere near the top 5%.
In my opinion and experience, M1 killers start to struggle as soon as you start getting at and above a medium level of understanding/skill at the game.
Which is to say, a lot of the time.
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breaking pallet =/ is not counter-play. the tile is not playable. the pallet is free second chance with 0 risks or any repercussions. the window is playable but relies on survivor to make a mistake. that is essential problem with most of dbd pallet design in the game for m1 killer's. the other aspect is that killers should not rely on chase perks to be effective killers. they should be optional bonuses that give you an edge in the chase just like survivor perks.
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you can write a 4-5 page essay on every loop on every map for how many problematic pallets there are for m1 killers. that looks like a good job otz to showcase every loop in dbd for strength level of each pallet and window. he'd be making 10 hour long video with that. shack, jungle gym and that long-wall pallet are prime examples of pallets that need balancing so both sides have gameplay. this is disregarding specific maps like Gideon or filler pallets in every map that might also need adjusting.
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My knowledge of tiles aren’t the best but I know enough to not take a chase at shack/GOP or Ormond main building at the start of the game unless god pallets are predropped. If maps have certain structures or tiles that Killers are recommended to not chase at early on, it’s because they are too safe.
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You don't have to rely on chase perks to be an effective killer though. You are acting like shack itself is losing you games, it isn't. Shack is 1000% playable, and winnable without any aid on literally every killer in the game. You just have to actually play the tile. Some tiles are more difficult to chase than others, sure.
Bamboozle IS an extra edge, it helps you force the pallet faster because it essentially has no counter other than dropping the pallet or getting hit and w keying to elsewhere. You don't NEED bamboozle to win shack chases, you don't even need it to win them quickly. I was only mentioning it as a useful perk for someone who is having trouble with shack.
From the sounds of the people on this thread you guys want every tile to be a Z or TL wall instead of learning how to play around tiles. Killer isn't that difficult, I promise you.
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you don't need chase perks if your opponent is ineffective at looping. the shack itself is part of losing you games. to lose the game, you need number of small losses to lose. shack is guaranteed small loss. build-up large amount of small losses results in a full loss. there is nothing to play at the tile. the survivor is full control vs m1 killer. that is entire problem. there is difference between harder to play and impossible to play.
bamboozle is not winning the tile. bamboozle is speeding up the small loss of the tile. enduring spirit fury the pallet and getting the hit is winning the tile.
An example for bamboozle is garden of joy main house. you cannot win the window as m1 killer. you need to follow the survivor by vaulting window and wait for entity blocker to block the window. To speed-up the process, you need use bamboozle to block the window to prevent effectiveness of the window. bamboozle is not optional extra edge. it is mandatory perk to deal with that tile.
the equivalency for this on survivor is resilience unlocking the ability to fast vault a window. Imagine trying to play T-L wall on survivor without the ability to fast vault a window. that is what bamboozle is for garden of joy house window. your not getting an optional extra edge. your forcing mandatory perk for m1 killer to mitigate a problematic loss for the killer. This same problem exists for pallets with pallet breaking and running forward for survivor. you just need to use different perks and analogies to explain a similar problem.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
The majority of the maps are still very unfair for m1 killers and even 60% is being kind, I could see it being higher than that. If both sides are equally good, you lose. You rely on survivor mistakes to win as an m1. Map design always has been and still is very, very unbalanced in survivor favor. It’s much better than it used to be don’t get me wrong, but it’s still very bad.
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I don't mind the strong loops by themselves. It's when they tie straight into other loops that it bothers me. Stringing together short loops can be problematic but manageable. When you can string shack, to a short loop, to another safe loop, it just feels overwhelming.
I don't think removing or trading a few of those combinable pallets to other areas of the map would hurt much. If the objects were still there it would still give you structures for LOS but would remove some of the stronger chaining.
Especially when on some maps you might have strong loop connected to strong loop but then on the other side of the map there may not be a single pallet in sight. I also don't think every loop should have mind game potential. Breaking the pallet in a lot of cases renders the tile useless afterward.
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No, what i mean is the "get it out" part. It means, that you dont have any means to actually play around it and get a hit. You go to shack knowing that you wont get a hit and that it will waste your time without anything positive in store for you. That in my opinion is bad.
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Agree. I would do the writing part myself but i sadly dont have the time for that right now.
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Ok. We are back at the skill issue thing again. Sigh.
I know it sounds dumb and i know i dont have 100h of video footage to back me up (you need this in this game).
No i dont lose my games to shack. Mostly.
I know what im talking about. I played pig for around 2000h now. Other killers i play are also m1 based. If you play blight, nurse, spirit or any killer with a solid chasing ability then yes, shack is "managable". On pure m1 killers no. Im sorry. You DONT play around that tile. You try to get the pallet. Thats it. Again. (I hate to repeat myself again and again) I have developed 4 different mindgames throughout the years. Not one of them works if the survivor waits at the right spots.
Shcak has mostly no counterplay for m1 killers and reduces them to bots when the survivor plays it correctly.
If your games are easier, then lucky you.
I know that this is killer we are talking about and killer fun is not that highly valued in this game (dh needs years to get nerfed) Sometimes a player wants a FUN experience and have the chance of actually getting a reward for their input.
I dont like being reduced to a bot because of game design.
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The snow machine, the long tiles, and pallets are there for the benefit of survivors not the killer. They're meant to be more useful to survivors. They're in the same category as a killer's weapon - they're a tool for one side to use against the other. Killers kill so their tool supports attacking. Survivors run so their tool supports building distance.
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It would be nice if there were some 'killer specific' map variables.
For example, if killers without any kind of chase or anti-loop power would spawn a breakable wall in the Killer Shack like on Dead Dawg, providing the basement isn't in shack. And have any TL walls spawn in a variant like the new ones on the Nostromo map that have a slightly shorter T wall.
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Not everything in this game has direct counter-play for sure, but the fact that once the pallet is down in shack the tile becomes half as useful as it is because the threat of the pallet is gone, I feel like that makes the tile perfectly fine.
Survivors rely on distance to continue chases to buy time for their team to do gens, there are some pallets that have to be broken, most pallets don't, survivors need occasional strong tiles to buy more time or they would all go down in 10 seconds.
Just because someone struggles with or doesn't like playing some of the more difficult tiles doesn't mean they are bad, at no point did I say you were bad. But at this point I am wondering what you enjoy about killer if not chasing complex tiles?
If every tile sucked and survivors were forced to just dumpster a pallet and w-key until they reached the next bad pallet tile would that not be effectively doing the same thing? You are saying autopilot playing is bad, but you also don't want the survivors to loop strong tiles, most players aren't going to loop bad tiles, at least not for very long. You are essentially asking for the game to be w-keying in a straight line until the survivor does down.
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Pretty much this, like there really isn't anything else to say about it.
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I am asking for tiles/pallets that include mindgames and the opportunity for either side to make a read and get a hit/gain distance. God pallets should not exist.
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Nor should unsafe pallets or tiles by your logic. There’s no way for survivors to gain distance with them.
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survivors need occasional strong tiles to buy more time or they would all go down in 10 seconds.
survivor should need to win mindgames to make a tile strong. not get a strong tile for free. they're suppose to go down in 10 seconds when they play the tile poorly.
Not everything in this game has direct counter-play for sure, but the fact that once the pallet is down in shack the tile becomes half as useful as it is because the threat of the pallet is gone
the window is still useful even after pallet has been thrown. the problem that occurs with window is entity blocker and bloodlust. you are near guaranteed to be hit once enough bloodlust has been build-up. now your starting to unpack the problem. entity blockers does not exist for that window. it exists for garden of joy and mother dwelling infinity-type windows. bloodlust exists to counter running forward but it fails achieve that because of pallets like the shack and other tile-sets being too safe.
You are essentially asking for the game to be w-keying in a straight line until the survivor does down.
those types of pallet promote exactly that type of gameplay you described. break every pallet until the map has no pallets into bloodlust w-key downs.
Survivors rely on distance to continue chases to buy time for their team to do gens
killers rely on hooks. those pallets slowdown hooks. perhaps killer should get a random luck-based mechanic where every time he hooks someone, there is 25% chance that he gets 2 hook-states for 1 hook. the difference between this mechanic and god-pallet is that one of them is RNG and the other is consistently present on every map. If you ever wondered why gens take so long to complete, your answer is in these pallets and certain windows. the certain windows often have breakable wall to address the problem but some do not.
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yes? that is correct and what they said they want.
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It’s not though. He said god pallets should not exist, and said nothing of their opposite. A proper response illustrating the point would be “neither god pallets nor unsafe pallets should exist.”
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the god pallet part is just an illustration since the other person was defending god pallets existing.
they still said they want pallets that either side can win.
and let's be honest, those unsafe pallets might aswell be "killer god pallets". you only lose these because you screwed up.
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Killer has mechanics that not only increase speed the longer you chase, but one that blocks windows if they are vaulted in chase 3 times both basekit. If you are genuinely still struggling to get hooks then I have no clue that to tell you man.
If you think the 1 or 2 strong pallets, a finite resource that can be broken and completely removed, even removed faster with perks, are losing you entire matches then you are making mistakes elsewhere, you fundamentally don't understand something.
You are more than likely applying pressure in the wrong places, it isn't uncommon for the first chase to take a while to complete.
Most people don't have this much trouble with killer.
You don't even have to play pallets as Nurse like what.
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That’s totally wrong. If the survivor stuns the killer with an unsafe pallet, they gain distance. If the killer guesses right, the survivor is hit. How is that not fair?
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Isn't that the same thing that the last version of dead hard was and it was deemed by the general community as to strong? It even had the same issues with latency that pallets do. I understand that DH was anywhere and unlimited but the idea is the same, eventually people would complain about even unsafe pallets.
If pallet stuns were consistent or good then smash hit would be the most popular suvivor perk. Unsafe pallets are good as filler, I enjoy the challenge of them but to suggest every pallet should be unsafe is labotomizing the killer roll to nothing. A survivor centric mechanic should favor the survivors. You would never lose another chase.
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How would killer never lose another chase? It’s literally a guess. There are mindgames involved. You either swing or respect the pallet and go to the other side. THAT’S actual gameplay, not this safe loop to safe loop BS. Dead hard was stacked in the survivor’s favor because if they were wrong on dropping the pallet, they could dead hard to take the hit. It sounds like you think that it’s ok for there not to be even counterplay- you think the survivor should aways have an advantage.
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Oh you don’t understand what an unsafe pallet is. Lol. Well that clears up a whole lot.
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TBF there are degrees of unsafe, varying from 60/40 down to "if you don't stun you're eating a hit." The latter trash pallets are just as bad as god pallets imo
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I am fine with counter play, by your description of dead hard it still needs nerfed because you can still DH at pallets like before.
Also, I am not sure you get what unsafe pallets are.
What is the point of pallet breaking as a mechanic if you basically want to ignore all pallets. The fact that they are strong is countered by the fact they are finite and removable. So yes, the survivor should have an advantage when it comes to most pallets, they are a survivor mechanic, killers cannot use pallets. The counter to pallets is that they can be used once and broken then never used again.
Unsafe pallets are called unsafe because they favor the killer instead, think the pallet between two small rocks that a killer can just walk around. It is practically impossible to not win chases if your monitor is turned on.
You are asking for the game to be boiled down to 50/50 mindgames, that is the exact reason they changed Spirit and Slinger. Guessing is actually not counter play, you aren't making a skilled decision or choice, it is entirely luck.
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Normally I hear people call the semi unsafe pallets something else, long-wall pallets, etc. But yeah unsafe pallets are a pretty general term.
I think that woundcowboy is saying the only fair pallets in the game are the short trash pallets, like the ones between two small rocks, based on how they are talking about them.
We need a DBD dictionary lmao.
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Right, so top players in Street Fighter and all fighting games are just lucky and luck their way into making thousands of dollars. Guessing/reading is a skill. Predropping a safe pallet is devoid of all skill.
I also disagree that pallets should favor a survivor. If anything, since dbd is a 4v1, the killer should be favored in chase/at pallets. I’m pretty sure the devs designed the game with this in mind, which is why killers are faster. Unfortunately, that doesn’t matter at safe loops.
An unsafe pallet is a pallet that is too short to loop around and the survivor has to get a stun to win the scenario. This is how the game should be designed. Imagine trying to insult someone while revealing your lack of knowledge in the process xD.
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Knowing when to predrop versus when to not to preserve a pallet is part of what makes a good or bad survivor, so yes. Some killers require predropped pallets, some you can loop at pallets, some you can't even use pallets against, etc.
This game isn't really comparable to something like Street Fighter, this isn't an even playing field, it is an asym. In Street Fighter both players can run the same thing if they want. There is a power imbalance between opposing sides in DBD, something like a 50/50 in DBD isn't really possible, we just call it that because it is a guess. It is probably closer to like an 80/20 depending on which side has more info, this is why game knowledge is so crucial.
But guessing in DBD almost always favors Killer, which is fine because it is the power role, but that is also why you can't balance around 50/50 mindgames in an asym.
Any shared mechanic in this game favors killer, windows and vaults favor killer (not right now but that is getting reverted), hooks favor killer, etc. Again, this is fine, it is by design.
Pallets are a survivor mechanic, only suvivors can use pallets, they should favor suvivors for that reason. You wouldn't expect a mechanic meant to help you favor your opponents in any other game. You are acting like there aren't safe pallets that you can mind game, because just like the unsafe pallets, safe pallets come in all shapes and sizes. The only unmindgameable pallets are the ones that directly block you, and each map maybe has like 2 of those, that again, can be broken.
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In what universe is a pure guess on both sides an 80/20? That makes no sense. Bear in mind, a healthy survivor that gets hit at an unsafe loop still gets a speed boost to make another tile. The mindgames might not be as deep in dbd as in fighting games, but they are still there.
And no, predropping pallets isn’t skillful. There are way too many pallets on most maps for it to matter. It isn’t resource management when there is such a huge supply. I also think predropping is the optimal strategy. Too many survivors think they are being fancy by looping, when they are able to stay safe and waste a ton of time.
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The devs also designed the same loops you're now calling unfair so clearly them favoring the survivors is a fundamental part of the game's design. You also seem to be analyzing game elements in isolation when measuring which side is 'stronger'. For example, killers don't have to sit at stationary targets for minutes at a time while vulnerable to attack and having their progress reverted. Killers can't be killed, harmed, or arbitrarily stunned unless they walk into an environmental hazard that survivors can activate.
Predropping a safe pallet is a choice, like anything done in this game. Do you know who the killer is yet? Do you know how well they loop? It's not a default, always do this action.
Mindgames require giving the other party misleading information, withholding follow up information, and hoping they guess what you're doing incorrectly. Yes, there is skill involved in pulling it off. You must also acknowledge there's a good deal of random chance involved as well. At its core, it relies on guess work. How fair do you think that would feel to the other side if every tile was like that? Outmindgaming someone is just a grandiose way of saying someone faked someone else out or they correctly guessed the other party was trying to fake them out. It is not the end all, be all of skilled play.
This talk of there not being counterplay to strong pallets seems to suggest the mere presence of a pallet or strong tile means you aren't getting a down. Given that infinites were removed the only way a killer won't get a down on someone they're chasing is if they chose to stop the chase themselves. That's not necessarily the wrong choice depending on the circumstances but it's not a situation where one can just throw their hands up and say - welp, this pallet just caused a 4 man out. There is not a single pallet in the game that can make a killer lose a chase all by itself. Break it and continue on to down the survivor you're after if downing that one person right then is what you want to do.
Perhaps you can explain how, if all strong tiles and pallets were removed, survivors would stand a chance of surviving long enough to have a realistic expectation of escape?
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Sure. But most killer tools dont guarantee value. Those that do are heavily disliked if I'm not wrong.
Survivor tools as you call these unfair tiles have no counterplay. However. The fact that this is very unfun and unfair for the killer player is widely ignored.
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The whole part of the interaction of the game is guess work. You predict your opponents next move. That's what dbd is mostly about. Dodging a Huntress hatched. 360 a blight. Dodge a nurse. All of this is interaction based on prediction.
Mindgames are part of that. The game would he terribly unfun if both sides just chased each other like bots from pallet to pallet without putting in any thought.
Wait....
That's what Im on about the entire time....
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You’re right, there isn’t a single pallet that causes the game to be lost-there are 20+ on most maps. And yea, I would feel fine if winning or losing depended on me guessing right at a pallet because that’s how most games work. I didn’t say there should be no strong tiles, but they need to be significantly reduced from what they are currently.
This is all frustrating because we have been at points in dbd in which the game seemed to be heading in a good direction. But as always, the crybabies are loudest and always get their way, which is how we get survivor-controlled killers like singularity.
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If the sides are not on an even playing field, in other words, asymmetrical, then a true 50/50, even odds, is not possible.
Like I explained, on side always has an advantage. There aren't 50/50 guesses, take old Spirit for an example, the survivor has legitimately no information but the Spirit has tons. People still called it a 50/50, but it isn't really.
That is how every guess between survivors and killers go because the rolls are not balanced for 1v1, it is balanced for 1v4. The Killer always has an advantage if the survivor has to guess, they are faster by default, they have bloodlust to make them even faster than that, windows get blocked, taking vaults is unsafe depending on how you play, etc. Chase in general favors killer.
Predropping is part of information gathering, knowing when to do it requires game knowledge at the bare minimum. Obviously not if you are dumping every pallet all the time, but in certain instances it is the correct play to make. Not all predropping is skillful, just like not all tunneling is, but both can be used tactically depending on the circumstance. I am not saying anything crazy here.
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this is not about struggling to get hooks. it is that interaction of those loops is unfair for m1 killers. it does not matter that the pallets can be broken because pallet are designed to waste time and if the 3-4 of pallets have no gameplay for killer then you can lose 3 gens in first chase for those pallets existing without any control in changing outcome in the first chase. The more pallets that have low-gameplay, the less killer can chase because every chase is just a bad chase. you can lose games solely on those pallets if you do not understand where to chase. you have to play so tactically careful with detaching chases to remove the unfairness. I do not see how you can defend an entire map full of strong safe loops and say that is a balanced experience for m1 killers with poor chase powers.
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