BHVR need to stop rewarding survivors for making a mistake
Why do perks such as Resilience and Made For This exist and basically rewards you when you're injured? You should not be rewarded for making a mistake in the game. It's surreal that these perks exist in the first place! M1 killers continues to struggle against these perks. The pick rate for Nurse, Blight and Wesker are getting higher and higher but BHVR doesn't address these issues thus we're stuck in this boring Hold Shift+W meta.
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They are comback perks, or perks that help you when in trouble. Both sides have perks like that.
NOED, Enduring, bitter murmur, coupe de grace... They all only activate by you not doing anything or by making mistakes.
It's not something new or unfair.
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Made for this created so many controversial topics I'm dumbfounded that behaviour haven't given the nerf hammer yet.
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Do you notice any disparity between survivor and killer “comeback perks?” All of those killer perks you listed are awful/borderline unusable. That’s not true of the survivor perks.
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Not rewarded really, you sacrifice a health state, vulnerable just to get some benefit out of the perk
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BHVR need to stop rewarding killers for making a mistake.
Chase survivor for ages, tunnel them out for outplayed.
Lose pressure on gens, camp and tunnel for take pressure back.
Lose gens, get free kill by NOED.
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Ah yes, Resi giving you 9% gen repair speed because you took a hit 5 minutes ago, you're in so much "trouble" when the killer is on the other side of the map while you crank out gens. did that happen to be the last gen in the match? alright heres adrenaline, giving you a free healthstate + Sprintburst effect, again because you're in so much "trouble" from that scary killer on 2 continents away.
Lets go over the perks you mentioned.
NOED - hex perk, can be clensed, hex location is revealed to survivors,survivors can pre-emptively cleanse all totems if noed is that concerning, only activates after all the gens are done, if the gens dont all pop, you wasted a perk slot.
Enduring - Really bruh... less stun duration is a "comeback perk"?
Bitter murmur - ah yes, my favorite comeback perk, lets you see auras of survivors near a completed gen (then again, if the gen is completed you know they are there, so worthless effect) you get to see the survivors aura's for 10 seconds after the last gen pops.... so good... /s
Coup - 2 longer reach swings whenever a gen is completed... wooo such a comeback!
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Compare this with MFT and resi ... "Hey you got inevitably hit? heres 3% speed bonus and 9% action speed on everything
yeah, doesn't seem "equal" does it...
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Best counter is not to injure the survivor then? I guess I'll just leave them be and give them the most boring match possible by doing absolutely nothing.
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Let's not mention Spirit Fury, Enduring and Hubris. Rewarding Killers for failing a mind game and getting an instant down
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How can you fail a mindgame if your whole build is centered and tailored around "I want to be stunned by pallets"
That's not the same thing as making a mistake, getting hit and then being 3% faster JUST because you are injured. Exhaustion perks are conditional and require at least a bit of brainpower to use.
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nope... this topic is old
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NOED is "unusable"? If it is true please tell killers to stop using it immediately, as they clearly haven't got the message.
So no perks at all related to being injured, and take out any killer perk that "rewards the mistakes" of gens being done or exit gates being powered. Half of the perks in the game removed then, that's fun and varied. Why stop there, remove the medkits too, they "reward mistakes". Remove gen pings, why reward the killer with information when they made the "mistake" of letting a gen be done. And you can forget about having Bloodlust. Why should the killer have a speed boost when a chase has gone on for a long time? The killer's "mistake" is that they didn't catch the survivor at normal speed, so no reward!
It is a terrible idea to remove these perks. I hate the "get good" attitude survivors have, but you need to learn to adapt to these perks, and make a build that counters them. Behaviour are not going to remove everything you do not like.
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Getting hit isn't always due to a mistake. I take a lot of hits on purpose to avoid dropping a strong pallet or to gain distance when I know I'm in a bad spot. Sometimes it's less risky to just take a hit and run to a stronger area of the map than too try to run a short loop with nothing around it. Then there's body blocking for teammates which is also intended.
There's also Nemesis. I use his zombies a lot to get infected or take a hit and gain loads of distance on the killer.
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So no perks at all related to being injured, and take out any killer perk that "reward the mistakes" of gens being done or exit gates being powered. Half of the perks in the game removed then, that's fun and varied. Why stop there, remove the medkits too, they "reward mistakes". Remove gen pings, why reward the killer with information when they made the "mistake" of letting a gen be done. And you can forget about having Bloodlust. Why should the killer have a speed boost when a chase has gone on for a long time? The killer's "mistake" is that they didn't catch the survivor at normal speed, so no reward!
Also, being injured might not be the result of a "mistake", it could be a protection hit.
It is a terrible idea to remove these perks. I hate the "get good" attitude survivors have, but you need to learn to adapt to these perks, and make a build that counters them. Behaviour are not going to remove everything you do not like.
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Getting hit is not always a mistake. Now wasting a Pallet without taking a hit, now that's a mistake. 2 Health States are there for a reason and sometimes taking a hit is the smart play
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I was talking about design of the perks, i never said if the perks are good or bad.
Also, don't come with the talk like all killer perks are bad. Killers have way more variety of builds and fun stuff to try out, thanks to different powers and sinergies. Thats what i do when playing killer.
I am so tired of seeing complaints about every single perk. Both sides have broken stuff.
MFT is 2 perks in one slot for some reason, yes the perk is kinda overtuned. There is no need for arguments that don't even make sense "Oh my god we are rewarding mistakes, what a crime", dude the game is full of mechanics that reward mistakes.
The game isn't fair, so enough of this self victimizing atitude.
Case and point, all of the best killer perks are good, because they give you free value for doing absolutely nothing, just like survivor's best perks. You got value because you decided to pick the perk.
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I'm not saying I agree completely with OP's POV here, but the way the game is set up - survivors have two 'chances' so to speak. You lose a chance when you make a mistake. When you lose both chances, you go down. This is why stuff like DH Adren etc are called 'second chance' perks. The point OP is making is that there is no prerequisite to MFTs haste nor is there any reasonable way to avoid it
To take @Sackboy123 's example, if I come across a killer using enduring spiri fury hubris, how can I avoid it? Predrop pallets or abuse windows all game.
You're both right that getting hit is not always a mistake, I 100% agree, but the point OP is making here is that being injured by itself rewarding you does seem a bit cheap. This is why DH was complained about so much.
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"all of the best killer perks are good, because they give you free value for doing absolutely nothing"
I'd like you to elaborate on this statement and back it up please. I'll give you CI and DL, what else?
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It's a risk and reward perk, you only have 3 perk slots unless you're injured which activates the 4th at the cost of being an instant down
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Being injured is not a mistake, its a natural part of the gameplay loop.
That's like saying the Killer made a mistake by losing a gen or by having to break a pallet.
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Yeah, killer has perk variety because there isn't a single one perk thats so busted it makes all others not worth running , not to mention killer perks have strict requirements or time gates, and when they dont its because the effect is so minimal, the day someone comes out claiming enduring and brutal strength are busted I'll laugh so damn hard.
Meanwhile survivors have a multitude of "get outta jail free cards" that its not even funny.
Got hit? heres MFT and Resi giving you perma haste and perma action speeds!
Got caught out of place? Heres sprintburst
teammate did a risky rescue near the killer? Heres basekit BT + OTR so you can bodyblock for your savior for up to 80 seconds!
Fumbled the chase before the last gen pops? heres adrenaline to give you a free healthstate AND SB effect. (Not to mention the effect being on hold incase you're in the killers grasp or on hook)
Theres are just to name a few. yet its impossible to name killer "GOJF cards" because they simply dont exist.
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Pretty silly that being injured is such a non-issue that it’s often the best play (for things like resilience, mft, going against legion, etc). When you have 20+ safe pallets and a handful of god windows on most maps, there’s very little risk to it.
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Must be nice playing in 2017, most games are not like that anymore in 2023.
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The only one of those Killer come-back perks that is any good is NOED and that both requires the gates to be powered and for survivors to not cleanse the totem.
MFT conditions to activate is just "Be injured" for a permanent speed boost.
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That just depends on how you look at it. Being injured and vulnerable, to me, is a prerequisite. Depending on the perk though, me using the term vulnerable could be completely off. Old DH for example took any fear of being injured out of the equation. So did CoH, strong medkits, and old DS. I don't think MFT is on that level with just the haste but I also don't think it should have 2 effects or work well with some other perks. It still leaves you vulnerable to being hit and can't be used on demand as a quick burst. A visual que for killer wouldn't hurt either.
All the healing nerfs, while I think a lot of those were needed, didn't really help with this. Now it isn't that it's safer to heal to not feel vulnerable, it just takes too much time to do so. That makes these perks even stronger while also making other objectives go faster.
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Killers have build in comeback, survivors dont. You can tunnel/camp a survivor at anytime you want if you feel youre losing with 2-3 hooks and 1 Gen left.
Tell me how a survivor comeback with 1 survivor death with 4 Gens left. No they cant, its a hatch escape at most.
I get 3hook-1Gen left into 3-4K in end game alot of times. I never get 1death-4Gens left into 3 escape.
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yeah, they'll also nerf blight, wesker in next patch, they don't care that it's their own fault that anything but mobility = auto lose against 4x mft
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Killers get rewarded for sucking WITHOUT having to use perks..
Bloodlust - rewarding for sucking at chase (in addition to naturally being faster)
Auto window blocking - helping stop looping
stunning when jumping off anything (even porches) - more help ending chase
Loud moaning (like they aren't being hunted by a killer) - why search when the devs point out survivors for you.
I think BHVR should stop rewarding both sides for being bad in chase. Remove bloodlust, remove MFT, and only have momentarily activatable speed (kinda like in TCM) abilities that can be used strategically and require skill.
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I like how Resilience wasn't touched in God knows how long,there was 0 discussion around it for years,and now out of the blue it's OP.
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Resilience is fine and it’s been fine since the game launched
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The meta just shifted to favour this perk,the previous meta was all about healing with Medkits and CoH and Resilience wasn't seeing much play because of it.
This perk wasn't complained about at its peak during the vault speed build with Spine Chill but NOW it's an issue?
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"I think BHVR should stop rewarding both sides for being bad in chase. Remove bloodlust, remove MFT"
Bloodlust has been a killer feature for 6+ years they're not going remove it because one person is happy to trade Made for This for it.
If both sides get something that rewards them for "being bad in chases" why wouldn't they just keep them both in.
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Wrong. You don't sacrifice anything.
The killer either hits you in chase and tries to progress their objective and then you get bailed out by a perk. Or the perk doesn't activate and you win anyway. The same goes for Resilience. You do not work for it but instead you let the killer do it for you. Sounds stupid? Probably because it is.
MFT does need a nerf. If nerfing the haste effect is out of the question, then how about making it an actual exhaustion perk? It could work when exhausted but it would make you exhausted and unable to get rid of it throughout the match. That way it really wouldn't work with exhaustion perks. Something that many people claim is already the case, so this shouldn't be a big deal, right?
The endurance effect is unnecessary, stupid and should be removed. We do not need survivors get endurance from a perk that already has a very strong effect.
And lastly there should be some kind of warning that the perk is in play. 3% is something that subtle hackers do. It is enough to make quite the difference but too little to notice right away. And even then the killer can only guess. A perk that gaslights players into questioning, if their opponent has it, is a cheater or if they just imagine things cannot be healthy.
Imagine explaining this to a new player. "Yeah, there is this perk, you see. It makes survivors 3% faster, which can help them tremendously and you have to find out without any hints if it is in play or not and then act accordingly." That will definitely get them invested in the game.
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I dont mean this to come off bad or anything but as a killer I've had to explain a lot of things to newer/lower hour survivors. I've been accused of wallhacking because of bbq, and other perks or add-ons, more times than I can count. It's just a product of being new.
I'm not against giving the information to killers on some perks like MFT though. Letting them know someone has it so they can adjust. I'd prefer it be noticeable but even if it's like a slight brightening of scratch marks, or something, it would help.
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Perks like BBQ can be called out rather easy. The killer always finds someone immediately after hooking a survivor? Well, then you know what perk they have. And even if you don't know you can still counter it by sitting behind a gen, hiding in a locker or using a variety of perks. I remember when I was new to the game and BBQ was a nightmare for me to go against (because I was incredibly bad in chase) but I learned quickly how to notice if it was in the game and how to counter it.
With MFT you cannot reliably tell, if it is in the game or not and you cannot really counter it by adjusting your play style during the match. But you need assume that every survivor has it. My idea would be to do something with the survivor icon during chase. That would be noticeable but not distracting or detrimental for either side.
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Which (good) killer perks give things for free? The only one I can think of is NOED, and I have never thought it is a good perk. On the contrary most of the meta killer perks in the past have required the killers to do something like get a down/hook or kick a gen. All survivor stuff is straight up given.
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they reward you for taking a risk by staying injured instead of healing up. the survivor is trading one resource, health, for a different one, speed.
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So like, i don't disagree with the sentiment, that being said, it is literally almost impossible even if you don't make a mistake that you won't be injured at some point. Unless of course, you want survivors to play super stealthy which I personally find highly boring as killer.
A survivor remaining injured on purpose has kind of a risk/reward factor to it because you could catch them out of position and now they only have one health state so it could be to your benefit.
However, I have given it a lot of time to settle and see what effect it would have, and I absolutely hate Made For This. In most cases, I don't even think the perk itself is the problem. I think pallet density and the safety of the map itself is what causes it to be as strong as it is. But thats kind of been the problem with the game since it came out.
Now, if we are talking about 110 killers like Huntress, on a map that's too dense to really go for even any medium range shots and has barely any loops you can throw over, I upgrade to loathing Made For This.
But then I feel kind of conflicted because I want survivors to have strong tools to make the game a challenge and also have the ability to have fun perks without them getting gutted.
In conclusion, this game is a constant push and pull and hard to balance. This is where we've landed. We deserve better from the game we love on both sides.
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Medkits were nerfed to make injuries apply more pressure to survivors. Then survivors were given all the perks they need to nullify that pressure while being injured. Nothing was solved, in fact things have arguably worsened.
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This is a point I've never seen made and honestly.... VERY GOOD POINT!
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It's done like this by design. Take something away from survivors and give them something just as strong in return. So they won't cry about it. Meanwhile killer players get gaslighted at every corner. Dead Hard was OP as hell for what 5-6 Years. They finally nerf it and the game starts moving in a healthier direction and they add MFT and we are back to square one again.
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Do you notice any disparity between those things in survivor’s and killer’s hands? Like, of the - one’s a weapon, the other’s a flashlight variety?
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It's not much of a risk to stay injured when every gen has a pallet within 10 meters of it lmao
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Is it really mistakes when a survivor can't be expected to run the whole match uninjured and if they do they are probably playing super stealth with no interactions to the killers.
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It's rather subjective on what someone considers a good perk. For a lot of these though I see them fairly often. There are some other perks I see good as well, such as Whispers and Rancor. I personally don't see them used enough to put here though.
Bitter Murmur
Brutal Strength
Corrupt Intervention
Deadlock
Discordance
Enduring
Fearmonger
Fire Up (mostly for certain builds)
Hex Haunted Grounds (Hope it's broken. Don't see this often either but get a lot of use out of this on certain builds. Like NOED it can cause a snowball.)
Hex NOED (I wouldn't say this is as strong since you can see it's aura now but still turns a lot of games around.)
Hubris
Lethal Pursuer
Lightborn (Situational but can completely counter a flashlight squad.)
Merciless Storm
Spirit Fury
Tinkerer
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Circle and medkits were nerfed because killers were complaining about survivors being healthy all the time.
Now killers are complaining about survivors being injured.
At this point, it really just feels like the real complaints are that survivors don't start the trial slugged or already on hooks.
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Has it occurred to you that perhaps survivors role in this asynchronous game inherently requires these types of perks to be balanced? A bear only needs to win one chase with unlimited retry opportunities where its prey needs to win every chase.
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Except that comparison doesn’t work at all. Dbd is like if the prey had to be caught three times to be dead. There’s also 4 of them.
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It’s hilarious that resilience has been in the game for 7 years and now is when people want to complain about it
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"OTHER SIDE BAD"
Great insight.
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Yeah, because now is when MFT exists, along with half a dozen other Endurance perks. Resilience didn't change, but the game around it did.
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