I did a Sadako Experiment and want your thoughts
Sadako Experiment: How many Condemned in 32 Matches? (It was supposed to be 30 and I accidentally did 2 extra but more data never hurt anyone)
Answer: 41
The rules were I had to play normal, no camping/slugging/tunneling to secure condemned. If they were downed, they were hooked.
I started off thinking she was going to need the slowdown based on how she had been since release. Within 6 matches I realized she was doing too well. The next 2 I dropped down to only Jolt and that felt more fair. Then I started to wonder if she even needed that.
So for the next 11 matches I played with 0 slowdown perks and only counted on my condemned stacks to keep the game at pace. My findings were, she performed fairly well without any slowdown other than her basekit condemned stacking. I wondered why this was?
There were matches where gens still went fairly fast without slowdown, but in those matches, they didn't manage their condemned well and pretty soon they were instantly dead. In the matches where they steadily managed their condemned, they couldn't keep up on gen progress.
However, realistically, we weren't going to see Sadako's without at least some slowdown and I wanted an accurate picture. So I threw on Jolt to see how much better she performed. Out of the last 13 matches, only 3 resulted in all 4 survivors escaping.
Those 3 matches were actually incredibly difficult and the teams did exceptionally well at not becoming condemned while simultaneously pushing out gens rather quickly. So, what does this mean?
Well, it means what it typically does for most killers in the game. Against normal teams, Sadako is actually quite oppressive and requires a decent amount of coordination to overcome. However, against a coordinated team, she can still struggle quite hard.
I'm aware that experiments like these, especially with 32 matches of data, are a rather small drop in the bucket, but I was looking to see how consistent her condemned mechanic came into play and it's definitely went from rarely seeing it, to seeing it almost every match.
And even when you don't see it, the threat of it will usually play into your favor. I didn't use iridescent add-ons. The one I used for every match was the "spread condemned to other surv" add-on. I also didn't use super oppressive perks.
In conclusion, I think Sadako might be slightly overtuned but not to a busted level. I would put her at high B-Tier or low A-tier if I were to rank her.
What do you guys think? What has your experience been like? Is she too strong? Has she finally found her groove?
Comments
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Every game I've played against her, she gets at least one Condemned kill. Sometimes two. I havent been one of those (yet) but it can be hard juggling gens and tapes. Tapes/TVs can easily become the main objective in a Sadako game.
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I mean the math checks out average is 1 Condemned kill a game 32 games 40 Condemned kills
That means there were 3 or 4 games were you got great Condemned kills
Or there was 8 games where you got 2 Condemned kills
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It honestly seems like juggling both would be a nightmare especially in solo queue. It just feels so weird to call her a strong killer lol I'm hesitant to state it but also like..... the evidence is there.
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It was honestly very surprising to me how often it was occurring and in most of the games where it didn't, it was because they weren't doing gens they were running from TV to TV.
Strength and stats aside, by the end of it I feel like the fun factor of going against her would be nearly non-existent. I honestly started feeling bad.
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Very well done and interesting graphic. Thank you for this.
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Thank you for taking the time to look at it :)
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She’s similar to Pinhead, manageable in swf with knowledge of the game, messy in solo queue
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I actually think she might be just a little bit stronger than pinhead mostly because of the instant death mechanic. Also, i think its a little bit harder to manage condemned than it is the box when it comes to balancing that and gen repair progress.
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I probably average 3 condemns a game. 1 draw and 0 losses in at least 60+ games. Wasn't exactly tracking them.
I haven't been condemned a single time myself against her though since I respect her condemn and do the mechanic. Won most solo queue matches I've seen her.
What to take from this.
It's less important how many wins/losses/condemns there are, and it's more important why those wins/losses/condemns happen.
Is she condemning/winning a lot because people ignore her mechanic or play bad? Or are they doing the mechanic, playing well and still getting condemned/losing?
In my experience it's the former. The only time she's winning/condemning excessively in my experience is when the survivors play bad or ignore her tapes, as they should. I've been spamming her and at least 70% of players ignore her tapes entirely or do her counter play wrong.
I think Sadako is fine, her condemns are just people playing bad. That's my experience.
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I mean, i dont disagree and as stated, 32 matches is a drop in the bucket when it comes to data analysis but I do think its interesting how often it happens and how quickly it can turn a game around.
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Yeah, I think she just needs more time for survivors to see her more and start to do her counter play as people are still adjusting. I hope they don't do a snap nerf on her this early. If she can't get reliable condemns she will be trash as that's all she currently has.
I'm actually surprised how few Sadakos I've seen on survivor though, quite little.
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Honestly, when I’m on survivor and go against a Sadako (since the update at least) my goal for the match is preventing a mori, and gens come second. If I don’t keep those priorities I end up getting mori’d and gen progress is irrelevant anyway. I could be on death hook but if I’m in a situation where I will get downed but have enough time to remove condemned I’m taking the trade. There might be some degree of spitefulness in that decision but it is what it is.
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I mean, before I tried her out after the rework i was pretty hesitant to play her because it was just super unfun before. I think the main issue is the people who slug non stop with her to get the condemned when its not necessary and I'm hoping they find a way to fix that without nerfing her specifically because that's not a sadako problem thats a slugging excessively problem thats game wide.
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LMFAO I feel that though.
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That's actually my play style, I use Knockout.
I think the hate for slugging is completely irrational. I do slugging to slow the gens down since I don't run any gen regression perks.
I don't think slugging is an issue.
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Just like how people jump into a locker to avoid tombstone Myers, there will probably be more players opting to go into the dying state in order to deposit their tapes.
Good looping will still prevent her from getting a 3 or 4 man condemned kill. Because a hooked or slugged Survivor cannot be Condemned, some Sadako players may opt to go for hit and run even if they are in an advantageous position to get a down.
Apart from giving Survivors base Aura reading of tvs within a certain range and nerfing her Iri addon (If Survivors can only deposit their tape at a certain tv, hitting them with the tape could increase their Condemned stacks by 1 instead of 2 and not destroy the tape), I think she will be ok.
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Gotta be the most boring killer to face in the game for me. Passive spirit phasing and condemn are both super unskillful. What a waste of a "rework"^DBD rework^TM.
The ideal goal for this killer should be to make her chase skillful with demanifestation and make condemn only slowdown unless extremely negligent.
Getting downed once at 2 gens after turning in 3 tapes but still getting mori'd is just the worst.
Easily worse than knight and barely less boring than SM.
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My point is its unnecessary and super unfun on the other side. I personally like to play in a way that is fun for everyone and as shown in the data, is completely viable.
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You’re talking about old Sadako, a Survivor could ignore tvs the entire game as long as they weren’t near the tv she projected to. That made her a problem only if someone was leaning into the Condemned strategy and she was F tier otherwise.
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See that's what I'm saying though, slugging isn't unfun for the other side. I would always rather be slugged.
People don't hate slugging because it's unfun, there is objectively more things to do while slugged than on a hook, more perks to counter it, and slugging allows a second chance at life. The real reason people don't want to admit they don't like slugging is because they want to exit the game early on hook and it's an ego hit being slugged. That's why I said the hate for slugging is irrational. There's no logical reason to say it's less fun/boring/toxic any of that, than being hooked.
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First, I want to apologize for my tone in the previous reply it came off as snippy when i reread it. That wasn't my intention.
Second, A lot, if not the majority of people would rather just be hooked so they can be left alone and saved and/or, if they are on their last hook anyway, get to go next. If you don't mind it, great, but me, put me on a hook and progress the game. If its a situation where there is someone nearby and you slug, cool, I get it. However, if you are just repeatedly downing me and leaving me on the ground to get condemned, or because you chose to not bring slowdown and you require slugging to compensate, I would rather you had just brought slowdown and hooked normally lol. It's not an ego thing, I'm not gonna suicide on hook, I just want the game to keep moving. Either you towards your win or my team towards ours.
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Thank you for taking the time to come up with some small tweaks. I do think, that in time, survivors will find a way to counter her a little more. Its still early. This definitely wasn't an experiment to get her nerfed. I was just curious as to how often it now occurred with normal gameplay.
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You’re fine, no worries!
So if they put you on hook, you just hang there doing nothing. If you get slugged, you can choose to just lay there and do nothing. How is that different?
If someone would have come for unhook then they would have come for a pick up as well, so you're not on the ground any longer than you would've been on a hook.
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I've found that survivors/teammates are much more likely to come for hook saves, than to pick up someone on the ground. Especially if its hard to find them. Thats more of a teammate issue, but it seems to be the case in my experience. At least in a situation with knockout, you may not be able to see my aura on the hook but you still get the hook bubble in my general direction to go off of.
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So you would say that the reason slugging is unfun is because teammates take too long or don’t even bother to come get you as quickly?
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Partly correct. I'm saying the reason slugging is unfun is because its incredibly uninteractive for the person on the ground. You hold a button until the meter fills and then you just wait. If teammates don't come, I'm not contributing to my team. I'm also not contributing to a sacrifice. I'm just existing by not getting to play the game at all. At least on the hook I'll eventually get to have a space bar mini game to entertain myself.
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Every match i have played against her after the first day or 2 where people don't DC or immediately give up have been a 4man escape. Once you know what to do, she is easy to deal with.
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I never understood this argument. Because being hooked is actually less interactive, because you can't move, and the "minigame" is as boring as holding m1 on a gen.
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different strokes for different folks. Regardless, this was an off-topic tangent between me and another person that replied. I appreciate your input on the experiment in your other response though.
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My point is, i never understood any argument anyone has around "uninteractive" or certain things making survivors "lose agency"
The entire game is designed around killers taking away a survivor's agency to do anything. That is the whole point of the game. It is essentially a game of freeze tag, where the person who tags you puts you on timeout so you can't play tag anymore until one of your teammates comes by an "unfreezes" you.
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Agreed on the freeze tag aspect. Again i'm not going to continue to get off topic. We can agree to disagree about slugging. In relation to the experiment, my point was it wasn't necessary to play sadako in that fashion if the end goal was condemned because it happens naturally regardless almost every match due to people not knowing how to manage their stacks.
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So by that you would argue in favor of adding a skill check mini game while being slugged and recovered to max?
Now it won’t be more unfun than being hooked and you can make yourself bleed out faster if you miss them.
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Actually, I'm not against this. However, I would be more in favor of just adjusting the game in a way that it makes it more detrimental to slug for no other reason other than to slug.
Perhaps, if I recover to the point of "find help" I can keep going, but instead of being able to pick myself up, for every bar I complete, I erase a hook state and if I haven't been hooked, I can pick myself up. That way, strategic slugging wouldn't be punished but slugging for the sake of it, or BM, wouldn't be as boring because there is still something your able to do yourself about it.
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I just enjoy slugging as a strategy and mechanic in the game. It’s one of the few ways in the game to actually create pressure and slow gens down.
Your idea for picking yourself up would complete eliminate slugging as a mechanic as then people would intentionally leave them on the ground since they can get themselves up and just sit on gens.
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You could limit it to one time like unbreakable. But to be honest, I would be fine with slugging being eliminated as a mechanic. Anyways, we've gotten way off topic lol but I've really enjoyed discussing this with you. I appreciate your candor.
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I feel like even 1 time unbreakable at base would be ridiculous in the hands of good survivors or swf. Very abusable.
I agree though we have, good chats friend :)
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