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Perk build complains??
Why are people complaining about certain perk builds like isn't that literally the entire point of perks?? To use and counter each other and win I'm so confused someone pls explain
Comments
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Depends on what perks you're talking about. Some complaints here are warranted (MfT, Buckle Up + FtP, etc) but most of it is just salt caused by a single or string of bad games.
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You get people complaining about everything.
I do it very rarely, only exception is, when i get a 4man swf that sends me to garden of joy with 4 mft + adren + resilience + hope + toolboxes. Game ends in 5 minutes max.
I wont write "gg" to these guys, sorry.
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Suspense. Nah but srsly just things like My and buckle up or soul guard and unbreakable, idk just people complain about literally every perk combo
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I'm going to bring Calm Spirit every game now and hope I see some variant of "Calm Spirit should not counter Doctor's power" or for people who bring Spies from the Shadows, would be really funny, ngl.
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Fr
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Cause every single game is just MFT, Hope, DH, WoO, Resilience, SB and adrenaline
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So? Killers can have decent semi overpowered builds too.
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Oh couldn’t agree more! I played around 7 games of Swf yesterday and pretty much every single game it’s just corrrupt, sloppy, STBFL, Pop, deadlock and pain res. That’s it that’s all killers run are those perks.
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There's a difference between killers being forced to run the strongest of the weakest perks
And survivors bringing the strongest of the busted perks.
What is a killer supposed to swap pop for? Eruption , that gives you 10% on a down IF you pre-kicked a gen? Jolt, for 8% IF you use M1s? SHPR where you only have 4 uses and sometimes you'll waste a token on a 10% gen?
I'd rather gamble pop sometimes being used on a 10% gen for the extra 3% , with the upside of sometimes knocking down 30% of an almost finished gen
Meanwhile survivors have multiple variations of endurance, busted combos like FTP+BU , MFT+Resi , multiple perks to slam gens with etc etc.
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1 loadout is fine, multiple people dedicating to some gimmick? it's boring. map offerings tho?? hell nah i'm outie
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Everything survivors have and bring exists to counter a killer’s play style (typically camping, tunneling, or slugging).
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They're not really forced, I run FP, MG, sloppy and tremors for most of my builds, sometimes I'd swap tremors for thanat or jolt and I get mostly 3Ks (would be 4Ks but I give hatch to last survivor if they weren't constantly teabagging and being toxic), tbh I think it might be more skill based? People tend to run the most popular perks because they think it's the best, that can be true but mostly it depends on your playstyle and skill
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Yeah it is boring, but it's more satisfying when I realise that mid game and get a 4K so win win ig
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Ah yes, my favorite counter perks... MFT,Resi,adren,hope
Countering... chasing.....?
Don't attempt to claim "survivor perks counter killer playstyles" because thats fundamentally untrue.
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I run Calm Spirit on every loadout, and I never get tired of the reaction Doctor players have when when the shock doesn't make me scream . Some get confused and others just look at me with disgust.
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Why do you assume that killers only run the strongest perks because survivors force them to? I'm pretty certain killers didn't need to run the glitched merciless storm but they used it constantly. Killer players want to win too, and will run the strongest perks they can, even if it's something completely broken like merciless storm was before BHVR fixed it.
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The original post was about the lackluster amount of viable killer perks forcing a "meta"
But since you want to discuss that, sure.
At high mmr where survivors run mft+resi+adren+hope , killers will be FORCED to bring the strongest killer with strongest perks and addons available just in order to be able to tie.
If survivors complain about killer diversity, more often than not, they are responsible for pushing away the casual killer players due to the unhealthy survivor metas and youre forced to play vs more competitive nurse/blight/wesker players
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It’s not untrue though.
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healing was nerfed, so this counters the sloppy butcher builds that are around.
and is strong in general.
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Peak survivor main mental gymnastics.
Defending blatantly busted survivor perks that extend chases by an unhealthy amount with "well it counters the perk that makes me take 4s longer to heal"
Its not just "strong in general " , it's unbelievably busted in general.
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gotta love being called survivor main in some threads and killer main in others... just depends on what side I said anything about...
don't think resilience, adrenaline or hope are busted. at all.
mft is debatable, I think it would be fine if it was just the 3%. it should have an abvious tell so the killer can know it is there.
we might have very different definitions here... what would you say makes something "busted"?
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But they do...?
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Both mft resi and adren remove the "danger" of being injured and turn it into a desired effect.
Killer outplayed you and hit you? Ok you move 3% faster and can do gens 9% faster!
Its extremely dumb that the killer hitting a survivor is actually beneficial to the survivor.
The purpose of the injured state was to force survivors to need to heal and essentially waste the time equivalent of 32 charges.
Now being injured shaves 8~ charges from a gen.
Hope just guarantees survivors escape during endgame, when it takes over a minute just to get a single hit in while straight line chasing its blatantly obvious as to why hope is fundamentally busted.
If a perk wants to have a strong effect it needs to be time / token limited
If it wants to be infinite duration, it must have a relatively weak effect.
MFT, Resi , Hope, Adren aswell as a couple other survivor perks break the previous 2 statements.
Strong effects with no limits are fundamentally busted.
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I am not dealing with another For The People, Buckle Up, Saboteur, Boil Over group on Badham with basement in shack.
Other than that, bring what perks you like. I don't care too much. MFT is not great to go against but it's not that bad.
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One of the few I will always complain about is Buckle Up with FtP. There's no counter to it except for going braindead for ten seconds or using Save the Best for Last, which is an equally unhealthy perk.
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Injured literally makes it so one hit and your dead..
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Isn't that the point of perks though? To help other perks into allowing you to escape?
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Ah yes, you're in so much danger of being "1 hit" from the killer thats on the other side of the map chasing someone else.
Not to mention the terror radius giving you enough warning that the killer is approaching, hence giving you enough time to dart away to a safezone.
And this is just on basekit, there's other perks that either let you see killer aura or other information that lets you choose if you should run or stick the gen.
The 1 hit argument is flawed and non-applicable.
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The short version, because it's an online game. It doesn't matter which game it is, there will always be a certain perk, character, weapon, and so on that is seen as the strongest. People don't like to feel like they lost because the other side picked the strongest stuff rather than because the other side played better.
That doesn't mean that the complaints are invalid, but you as a player do not need to be concerned with them. That's for us to worry about. You can use whatever you have available to you, and you don't need to stop using something just because someone else doesn't like it. As you've said, the point of perks are to help you. If you find that something helps you, by all means feel free to use it. If it's too powerful, we'll make adjustments when we can.
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The main point is that some people find other people using a perk the way it was intended "too powerful" which then leaves it nerfed to the ground
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The thing is, I don't see any way to actually confirm whether killers play the strongest loadout because it's easier to win with or because they feel they have no choice. That's why I take issue with you asserting that one side is victim to the other. As though killer players won't run busted loadouts because it makes matches easier to win. Survivor and killer intentions don't seem very different to me. Both sides will utilise the strongest loadout they can. Whatever BHVR provides for each side to use to win, they use. Bearing in mind that the majority of survivors are not running meta builds and contributing to the oversaturation of certain perks and playstyles. So this statement doesn't even apply to the majority of players.
In regards to the OP. Whilst I think perk combos like FTP + BU need to be modified, whatever meta perks get nerfed, they will just get replaced with something else, and the complaining will continue ad nauseam.
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Both mft resi and adren remove the "danger" of being injured and turn it into a desired effect.
no they don't. you are still in danger. 1 mistake and you go down.
Killer outplayed you and hit you? Ok you move 3% faster and can do gens 9% faster!
Its extremely dumb that the killer hitting a survivor is actually beneficial to the survivor.
ok... "the survivor outplayed you and hit you with a pallet? ok they are now exposed". it's such a silly argument... also, again, they are now 1 mistake away from going down.
The purpose of the injured state was to force survivors to need to heal and essentially waste the time equivalent of 32 charges.
not really... it's so the chase didn't instantly end in just 1 hit. being able to heal is more of a side effect of choosing this 2-hit style.
Now being injured shaves 8~ charges from a gen.
ok... that is a description of what the perk does. so?
Hope just guarantees survivors escape during endgame, when it takes over a minute just to get a single hit in while straight line chasing its blatantly obvious as to why hope is fundamentally busted.
I have caught survivors with hope. same as most killers I assume. so it does not guarantee anything.
this is like the people that say noed is just a guaranteed kill in endgame... no it's not.
it's just something that helps. helps quite a lot since it did absolutely nothing the entire game until that point. and it might not do anything meaningful when it does trigger.
If a perk wants to have a strong effect it needs to be time / token limited
like hope and adrenaline?
also, why does it need either?
If it wants to be infinite duration, it must have a relatively weak effect.
again... why? cause you decided that is what is fair?
MFT, Resi , Hope, Adren aswell as a couple other survivor perks break the previous 2 statements.
hope and adrenaline both are time limited and don't last forever. how are they breaking any of your 2 arbitrary rules?
also, is jolt busted? sloppy? any of the several perks like these I can bring up?
Strong effects with no limits are fundamentally busted.
why?
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Hot take here. The spies example is fine, because a perk countering a perk is just nature.
But a single perk should probably not be a hard counter to a killer without some kind of counter to the perk. Not because its OP particularly or anything like that. But it creates this scenario where it becomes difficult to balance.
1) If the perk super hard counters the killer, then the killer by default needs to be super OP, so that the perk counter doesn't make them useless. But now the killer is OP if you don't bring the perk.
2) If the perk super hard counters the killer, but the killer is balanced, or underpowered, then the perk is far too powerful against them, so now when someone does bring the perk you just lose.
Again, not saying that calm spirit is in either category, or that it is super common and everyone uses it, or that it even hard counters doctor (it is debatable) but from a balance standpoint, it probably shouldn't be a thing, because balancing it is impossible. It leads to a mess of RNG where the survivors think "are they playing doctor? Should i bring calm spirit?" And the doctor needs to just hope they don't
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I mean, perk synergy exists, yes, if that's what you're asking. But that combo is a no risk, insane reward situation for survivors.
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Resilience isnt busted tho, no one was complaining about that perk before so why on earth you complaining about it now
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Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Something can be too strong even when used exactly as intended. Obviously an extreme example, but if there was a Survivor perk that said, "At the beginning of the trial, escape." - there's not a shred of doubt that it would be too strong. That doesn't mean that a Survivor who is using it is wrong for using it, it's not their fault that's an option that's available to them, they're just using the best available option. But it would also be perfectly reasonable for a Killer player to say, "This is way too strong." and want it to be nerfed.
Feel free to use whatever you have at your disposal, but if you only chose to use the absolute strongest stuff, you shouldn't be surprised when those things receive some changes.
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I see.
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The first example i agree with, but i think the problem is worded poorly. It isn't that they aren't in danger, it is that "spreading pressure" doesn't actually "pressure" the survivors when they all run this, because they are all just injured anyway. Nobody stops to heal. So it brings back that situation where, if you aren't brining 4 gen slowdown perks, forget it, because you can't slow them down by spreading pressure naturally. Anything that makes killers REQUIRED to bring slowdown perks is bad design. In general i actually want them to completely get rid of all things the slow down, and increase the speed of gens, and then balance gen speeds around that, so that perks aren't "required" anymore.
The second example is bad because the perk you mentioned has a cooldown, a duration, and generally is very hard to get value out of. MFT has no "condition" or requirement or anything like that other than "be injured" which will naturally occur through a chase. Even the new perk that killers are getting for this with the next chapter that is similar is terrible. You hit a survivor, gain 10 seconds of 5% haste (so a time limit) and on top of that you give up bloodlust. Whereas the survivor one is just "be injured".
The general problem with MFT, is that mathematically it is by far the best exhaustion perk in the game for almost every scenario except when the killer is standing right next to you.
If you look at typical chase that starts 18 meters apart (keep in mind that killer lunge distance is about 6.2 meters, so hop into a game, lunge 3 times, and that is actually larger than 18 meters. So you can actually see how close 18 meters really is) and do the math, you'll see that sprint burst is BARELY better than MFT by about 2-3 seconds in that chase. Then when you factor in loops, and looping, and everything else, you'll see just how fast MFT makes the survivor.
The problem with MFT is that movement speeds for survivor and killer are very important. Because of a survivor's smaller hitbox, they can loop around things tighter than killer. So a 3% movement speed boost is actually probably more than that when looping a tight object. In the straight line chase, where MFT should be the weaker option, it is STILL just barely weaker. But in the common scenario, it is by far the best perk in the game right now for survivors.
The other problem with MFT, is that it leads to scenarios where you just don't know if the survivor is cheating. There are many games now i have played, where it definitely feels like the survivor is moving 5% faster, not 3%. Not much of a difference, but after playing the game for 3k hours, you can definitely tell when it is happening.
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The busted factor of resi and adren is directly correlated to the new injured meta.
Back then people wanted to stay healthy, so resi provided very limited value , and adren at most triggered a sprintburst in endgame.
Right now people skip the healing because slamming the gen with the 9% boost is better , AND once it pops you'll get your healthstate back.
If survivors didn't have as many perks that made the injured state as safe as it is right now, adren and resi would feel balanced.
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Just had a 4 man SWF mock my anti SWF build: Iron Grip, Agitation, Mad Grit and Lightborn.
So i´d just say that some people are simply salty. Especially when they lose to such a build.
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This would make sense if survivors knew who the killer is. As it is atm they don't though although the opposite can happen, Killer knowing what perks to pick to counter certain items (as survivors don't have anything more unique going on for them) and if I'm not wrong Doctor has an add-on that simply reveals aura's right? As well as being able to see the illusions aura, which gives you info. So even if you brought Calm Spirit it wouldn't matter (correct me if I'm wrong, don't own Doctor).
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The first example i agree with, but i think the problem is worded poorly. It isn't that they aren't in danger, it is that "spreading pressure" doesn't actually "pressure" the survivors when they all run this, because they are all just injured anyway. Nobody stops to heal. So it brings back that situation where, if you aren't brining 4 gen slowdown perks, forget it, because you can't slow them down by spreading pressure naturally. Anything that makes killers REQUIRED to bring slowdown perks is bad design. In general i actually want them to completely get rid of all things the slow down, and increase the speed of gens, and then balance gen speeds around that, so that perks aren't "required" anymore.
if they just stay injured, all you need is one hit. which means the chase is "kinda" cut down in half.
The second example is bad because the perk you mentioned has a cooldown, a duration, and generally is very hard to get value out of. MFT has no "condition" or requirement or anything like that other than "be injured" which will naturally occur through a chase. Even the new perk that killers are getting for this with the next chapter that is similar is terrible. You hit a survivor, gain 10 seconds of 5% haste (so a time limit) and on top of that you give up bloodlust. Whereas the survivor one is just "be injured".
a meaningless cooldown since you usually get the survivor to a hook on that time. and it's not like couldn't pick any other perk... several fit this.
the condition for mft is being injured. that is a condition. and it's a big one.
is fire up op cause it gets better forever when the thing that naturally occurs in the game happens?
The general problem with MFT, is that mathematically it is by far the best exhaustion perk in the game for almost every scenario except when the killer is standing right next to you.
it's not an exhaustion perk. it can be better than most exhaustion perks, but it's not an exhaustion perk.
If you look at typical chase that starts 18 meters apart (keep in mind that killer lunge distance is about 6.2 meters, so hop into a game, lunge 3 times, and that is actually larger than 18 meters. So you can actually see how close 18 meters really is) and do the math, you'll see that sprint burst is BARELY better than MFT by about 2-3 seconds in that chase. Then when you factor in loops, and looping, and everything else, you'll see just how fast MFT makes the survivor.
ok...
The problem with MFT is that movement speeds for survivor and killer are very important. Because of a survivor's smaller hitbox, they can loop around things tighter than killer. So a 3% movement speed boost is actually probably more than that when looping a tight object. In the straight line chase, where MFT should be the weaker option, it is STILL just barely weaker. But in the common scenario, it is by far the best perk in the game right now for survivors.
something can be the best perk and not be op.
I never said it wasn't good.
The other problem with MFT, is that it leads to scenarios where you just don't know if the survivor is cheating. There are many games now i have played, where it definitely feels like the survivor is moving 5% faster, not 3%. Not much of a difference, but after playing the game for 3k hours, you can definitely tell when it is happening.
it's why I said it should have a tell so the killer knows it's in play.
also... you can maybe "mostly" tell. you'll still get false positives and negatives.
which is another point for it should have a tell.
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Its because thats just the DbD community, particularly this forum and reddit. They blame whatever they deem to be the fault for them losing a game, even when they've made plenty of mistakes and are the real reason. A lot of people just have self inflated egos. If you end up in a chase too long with them, they blame MfT. If you do gens too quickly for them to keep up, they blame PT, SO and sometimes even quit. If you vault a window and they don't hit you as your vaulting, they blame Resilience and get mad that the vault got buffed/fixed.
Whatever you do, the reason a match goes horribly for them is always on your shoulders. Never on them. There's no accountability or self reflection, no going back to watch a replay of the match they just deemed 'unfair'. Just point fingers at the survivors. Its easier and the lazier approach so I do get it.
They also don't have anything to say about plenty of killers who 3/4k 90% if not more of their matches and even stream it while playing WEAKER killers like they love to complain about. I remember some guy literally made a thread about 1 of the best Doc mains in the world, said he was having trouble even downing people with MfT...well the streamer he was talking about, showed up in the thread and basically called him out on his lies, saying he's been winning almost all his matches.
I know one specific killer main who hasn't lost in literal months, despite playing on weaker killers. Not Blight, Wesker, Spirit or even Nurse.
People just want to cry loud and long b/c they want the same thing that happened to DH, to happen to anything strong a survivor uses.
Most of them don't even try to hide it, I've seen so many 'just kill the perk already, gut it into the ground' replies about MfT personally. Its hard to take the complaints seriously when its a clear pattern that people just want things that present obstacles/problems for them, to be nerfed to oblivion as a solution.
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I think you are underestimating how fast survivors can do gens when running a "stay injured" build.
Let me ask you a question. Lets assume a standard killer with 4.6 movement speed and a 32 meter terror radius. How close do you think the killer can get before the survivor realizes that the killer is coming for them? How far away? Remember, 3 killer lunges is 18 meters. Again, hop into a custom game, lunge 3 times, and that's 18 meters, which is quite close. So tell me what you think is reasonable and we'll do some math.
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I'm not. but I am saying that they being injured is a big deal if their skill is actually properly matched. and that the fact you only gotta chase 1 time is enough of a time save.
depends on the survivor. how much attention they are paying, if they wanna try finishing whatever they are doing right now, if they think you are chasing someone else, if you have any way of changing your terror radious or getting undetectable etc etc.
wanna ask a question? then just ask it. give me the scenario you think makes this unfair. otherwise... I'm just gonna say 0m. the killer can be on top of the survivor before they realize it.
it has happened a lot... therefore I say it's reasonable.
probably not the most common or expected. but I would not be surprised if it happened in a game during the last 2 minutes.
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I can see you aren't willing to have a discussion without be disingenuous, so i'm gonna go ahead and disengage. If you'd like to discuss further i'd be happy to, but only if you are willing to actually discuss within a set of parameters that we agree on. If not, that's fine, this is a forum for a video game, so nobody is obligated to do anything.
Either way, hope you have a good day.
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I am in fact willing.
I think your question was just incomplete. and I gave a proper explanation as to why before saying a half joke.
half joke, cause being right on top of the survivor is something that simply happens. so any answer I give from 0m to 50m+ can be correct. depending on all the things I said, plus other stuff like which map and where the survivor is in said map...
I understand the point you are trying to make about the distance the survivor can cover before you catch them, but I think looking at that in isolation is disingenuous.
wanna make your point, then make your point. just give the number you think it's fair.
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ive been brainstorming to the group i play with often that perk tags would solve a lot of 'problems', real or not.
'the heck are perk tags?' i hear you say. well, each perk is given one or sometimes two tags, depending on what they broadly do. kindred? vision / aura. dead hard? endurance. self care? healing / recovery. prove thyself? generator, etc. it would mean you could search 'healing' as a tag and get all perks related to healing, which pretty much already happens with the search bar.
heres the kicker: no more than two of the same perk tags in a build. you bring adrenaline and DH? cant bring any other exhaustion tags. have stake out and prove thyself? say goodbye to hyperfocus. means killers legitimately can no longer complain about a 'meta build' because there would be so many variations on the groups of perks. plus, it would give some lesser used perks at least a chance.
oh its not just on survivor, its on everyone. goodbye 4 slowdown perk builds for killers, as tags will be on killers perks too but altered towards killer objectives. heck, if tags are too complicated just use the points categories as a system. would solve or at least help out with the 'killer / survivors are only using [PERKS 1-4] and its ruining the game' ideology.
again, this is just me brainstorming ideas with the guys i play with while i wait for their skilled patooties to finish punish looping a killer for 5 gens bc i got tunnelled out due to my tunneling skills being as solid as overcooked noodles. any ideas / opinions are welcome, lets discuss!
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Agreed, but Doctor is free?
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That explains a lot
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