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Survivors focus too much on generators, leading killers to use desperate strategies
It's the lack of objectives that survivors currently have that lead to this stale meta we're in now. Killers choosing to opt-out 1 survivor to have a 'fair' match is difficult to assess which both will have to experience a terrible quality time in dead by daylight. This desperate strategy only intensifies the survivors to repair generators swifly but what other choice do killers have?
What could be done about this without breaking the game significantly? What should be solved first?
I honestly have no clue. The nature of the game is to do the generators as fast as possible to have a higher chance of escape but for killers, you want to kill the survivors as fast as possible to decrease their chances of escape. How can we balance the scales?
Comments
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Idk about second objectives,but I would really like to have like trapped loops that effect both sides, survivor,and killer. Like a killer or survivor can activate some sort of electric fence loop that can stun, or slow down the opponent. Idk I think the idea would make looping a little more strategic,and fun. I got the idea from dying light 1 where you can lure zombies into an electric trap, to trigger it to zap them all lol.
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There are enough Killers that bring other objectives to the game, but survivors often complain about them or straight up give up when they notice I am a Pinhead.
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If you don't do gens from the start you cannot even tie the game. Play survivor and tell me you can win against an average killer by prioritizing chests and totems and then doing gens. The time is gone when survivors could leisurely do all of those things because they had maps that allowed them to do so, that is no longer the case.
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In this era doing anything other than gens or going for saves is pretty much throwing. But that's not my fault.
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Exactly. Survivors focus on gens above all else because otherwise they get stomped by the killer. Killers tunnel and camp because they don't want to get stomped by the survivors.
Both sides create their worst enemies.
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Actually, killers created that. Asking for buffs over and over. And since they got buffed, they still camp, tunnel and play scummy.
Most killer players are way above their MMR they should be.
Just play some games normally, no tunnel, no camping. Then you get easier matches and can play normally. Then your MMR has settled. Not that hard.
Dont play the survivors, that they dont want to be tunneled in the first 2 minutes.
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They've been attempting to solve this problem by making Killers with their own side objective (Singularity's EMPs for example). But that still leaves older Killers in the dust.
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- Nerf charges to Medkit
- Nerf self healing speed
- Nerf on Coh
- Nerf on Pharmacy
- Buff on Sloppy
I wonder why people dont want to heal.
I agree with the nerf except Pharmacy, but I can already see this coming when Medkit nerf announcement. Adding another 8sec on healing doesnt mean your Gen extended by 8sec on top of it, but you lose 16sec of Gen.
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Facts. With healing nerfed, it just encourages rushing gens even more than before.
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I think killers believed that survivors would still try to heal through a sloppy butcher, nerfed medkit/self healing META. The hope seemed to be that healing would be nerfed but gen regression would still be strong, so basically it made the games easier for killers to 4K. But BHVR wants a specific kill rate which means that survivors have to have something in their favor going in to trials.
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Which is funny, because the same exact thing happened years ago - healing got nerfed and Survivors focussed on Gens. And now, Healing gets nerfed and Killers make surprised pikachu-faces that Survivors rather stay injured instead of wasting around a fourth of Gentime for a single heal or half a gen when two Survivors heal each other. And the reason for that - Mangled.
I think currently Mangled might be overtuned. Especially because Nurse gets a Mangled-Add On (which was a stupid decision to remove her synergy with Sloppy Butcher, just to give the Killer who does not even need Add Ons an Add On which does the same, freeing up a Perk Slot for another Gen Regression-Perk) and basically every Killer who relies mainly on M1s running Sloppy Butcher.
I think you cannot look at healing times and say "Healing another Survivor takes 16 seconds, healing yourself takes 24 seconds" because Mangled is applied in so many games. (Same that you could not say that when CoH and strong Medkits were around, which is the reason why those got nerfed. And now its Mangleds turn to get a Nerf)
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Survivors cannot do anything without someone complaining about it.
Gens are the main objective, but its becoming classed as 'gen rushing' when you do them too soon for the killer's liking - usually when they've overcomitted to a chase.
If they do totems killers complain they're using them even though it wastes time off gens. Or they complain they're losing their hex perk.
If they do chests you get complaints of wasting time or abusing items.
If survivors do what secondary objectives there are killers that have them become 'powerless' and again there are complaints.
You're clearly never going to please everyone and I think we need to remember gens are the main objective.
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True, I lose games vs killers like Wraith and Legion because people would rather heal than do gens. If we prioritized gens we probably could escape and not waste as much time. If We'll Make it is active I heal people around me cause it's fast. But that's about it. It's why I bring cause it's ok vs Sloppy Butcher and it makes people feel safer.
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Killers tunnel before they even know how the Survivors are going to play, Survivors try to do gens as fast as possible before they even know how the Killer is going to play. I honestly don't know what they can do to fix this at this point and it makes me sad. I like the state of the game right now but all the complaining here and on social media is telling the devs things aren't okay.
They need to realize that people are never going to be happy no matter how much they beg for and then receive certain changes, people will play in a way that will always make the other side upset, and just have faith in what they are doing.
Just imagine the game as Survivor without basekit BT and with pre-nerf Eruption, and as Killer with old DS and Dead Hard in the game. These are just small examples but people act like the game just gets worse and worse when really it has done nothing but get better and better. And its not objective. They just let their salt take over their brains and always have to find an excuse for why they are losing.
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I think hemorrhage is more overtuned than mangled (especially in combination with mangled). Because regressing the healing progress faster than you gain it is just nuts IMO. 😕
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Don't forget we only just left the gen kick meta. It's going to be a while before the psychological damage from that era fades. Most survivors are still wired to prioritize the destruction of the 3 gen over other things.
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This is unfortunately where all the nerfs to survivors have led us. Survivors literally have nothing to do now except generators. Healing, booning totems, etc. Are a waste of time now. If survivors do not complete gens quickly, they do not escape.
Once made for this is nerfed, survivors will probably just hide and do gens. They won't even want to be chased anymore. So expect the gen speeds to go up again.
Edit: killers will always have an excuse to play any way they want. There was a good reason to tunnel last meta, there will be another good reason this meta. And next meta as well. A brand new good reason to tunnel. That's not ever changing. So let's stop blaming survivors for it.
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I personally blame versacefeng for this.
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These threads really show who has never touched survivor. You don't have time to do anything other than gens unless the killer is brain dead and absolutely horrendous at the game. One guy decides to open chests or cleanse totems and it's almost always a loss. You either play to win or you play for your archive challenge and lose.
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Survivors focusing on their objective? Who would've thought such a thing existed?
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😕
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Make old 'unrevealed' NOED base kit and you'll see those Generators slow down quite a bit.
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hemorrhage should cause 50% lost of current progress, then it stopping there, so Killers still get value of it, but without completely reset the progress.
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It does not, survivors will rush Gen and leave anyone caught by Noed.
Its only give killer a free kill each match they dont deserve, adding 25% extra kill that they should not have would lead a major nerf to killers in general.
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How dare survivors focus on their objective
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Well it is my opinion. Not like anything we come up with will be implemented anyway, but I appreciate your feedback. Majority of Survivors are not 'Gen rushers'. My idea would affect that same majority. It obviously won't do anything to that small percentage of people you're talking about, but not much will.
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I feel like incentives to be off gens are being removed without any suitable replacements.
I can't remember the last time I had survivors chasing me around with flashlights.
I don't see anyone run Clairvoyance/boon/Overzealous.
Any Means might work if killers choose to ignore Chemical Trapped pallets.
It's hard for solo to coordinate sabo's or Head Ons.
Thus survivors just do gens.
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I see tunnelling in my survivor games 1 in every 10-12 games, and majority of those games are a survivor loss. Most of the killers I face seem to have no issue winning without tunnelling.
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I think this is a bit of an over-exaggeration but you're not entirely wrong either. Early game is when killers have no pressure, so losing a gen early hurts.
That said, some killers seem to have negative pressure early on: Trapper, Pig and Clown. It's disheartening to get a first hit and then hear a gen pop on the other side of the map.
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that's low mmr gameplay tbh, if you win enough on killer you will get teams that finish all 5 gens very quickly, even with decent short chases you literally cannot win if you're not tunneling, only exception is blight he can play for 12 hooks
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I will forever defend the ruin/undying meta as healthy for the game in giving survivors an alternate objective but apparently we don't actually want the other objectives people are asking for.
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I tried playing some survivor matches tonight and it has sucked. Almost every killer is hard tunneling and hook camping at 5 gens. It's almost shocking how consistent it is.
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BHVR needs to fix the tunneling problem. This game will never be healthy as long as one player can unilaterally make the match miserable for everyone involved. I don't want a win, I just want a match where I'm not desperately trying to keep some poor player alive because the killer is in a bad mood and wants to harass the weakest link out of the game before any gens have been completed.
I try to empathise with killer mains, but I don't understand this. I genuinely can't think of any multiplayer game where I've prioritised winning over having fun. Some players are only happy when they win, I can't help those people. But I can make a conscious effort to not target the weakest and most vulnerable players, who are already having a bad time. Killer players are aware of how miserable it is for a survivor to be targetted and pushed out of the game before they've barely gotten to play, but they do it anyway.
I have a genuine question: Is winning that important? If a game forced me to play in an unsociable manner I'd just play something else.
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Survivors have no pressure in end game either, unless all 4 make it there. But if pallets are gone before all gens pop good luck making it out. The game from the killer's side can be turned around even if he had a bad early game. The opposite cannot be done because survivors can't undo their teammates' death. Killer always makes it to end game.
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Another problem was the deletion of Thana. 6.1 needlessly buffed Thana (the gens times was good enough), but then people complained it was too strong (which it may have been due to being buffed for no reason), so instead of reverting the buff, they butchered the perk.
To an extent, if Survivors are focusing too much on gens, that is the fault of the Killer. The normal gameplay loop should be centered around Surv A on hook, Surv B in chase, Surv C going for the rescue (and subsequent heal), and Surv D pumping gens. That yields a 75% gen slowdown. If Survivors skip the heal, they go down in chase proportionately fast, (except against mostly 1-hit Killers like Myers/Bubba) keeping that 75% paradigm largely intact. If a Killer isn't maintaining that pressure, they have no one to blame but themselves.
All that being said, I am a fan of comeback mechanics in party games like this. I would have a basekit NOED if the Killer reaches endgame with 0 kills. This basekit NOED would not spawn if the Killer gets a kill, but also despawn like Ruin on their first kill. This would probably need old hatch (pre-Mikaela hatch that is) re-implemented to keep things relatively even though. Hatch only counts as a tie by the game, so Killer still wins with a 3 hatch escape.
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I try the Totem counter argument all the time. People seem to just ignore it at this point.. :/ I honestly think it'd make a big difference if people NEEDED to cleanse Totems for some reason or another. Not how it is currently.. "Oh, we only need to cleanse if we see a Hex..". No! Totems should ALWAYS be a concern for Survivors. They need to be given some scarier presence. Old NOED was for sure scary due to it not revealing itself and the Undying/Ruin combo wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.
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They could just make Ruin effect basekit without it being tied to a totem.
Probably something like 150% passive gen regression and the regression decreases by 30% for every dull, hex, white totem in the map. On the other hand, cleansing or blessing a totem could give Survivors a mapwide gen speed boost? When a survivor dies, ruin effect is deactivated. By not tying the effect to a totem, this also preserves Killer totem builds.
Alternatively, the totem basekit effects could be something similar to Pentimento with lower numbers. Instead of blocking 5 totems at 5 stacks, it could be replaced with a mini No Way Out.
This means that Survivors will have to cleanse at least one totem before or after the gates are powered or wait for the mini No Way Out Timer to end. Making totems a secondary objective basekit would slow the game down enough that removing tunneling and camping wouldn’t hurt the Kill rate that much.
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You're right. I don't disagree.
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Completely agree.
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So you don't want them to escape doing gens?
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I mean... how exactly do you maintain pressure with someone like Trapper or Clown? I think you're right in theory, but certain killers in this game have to work about ten times harder than the rest to even have a fighting chance. Especially poor Trapper. With how thin grass is and the awful design of recent maps, he may as well not even have a power.
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I don’t have fun when I feel like I played well and the survivors are able to use 2nd 3rd and 4th chances to make my efforts not matter.
I would make the opposite argument: we are here because survivors got gen regression nuked and killers have to play defensively to win. Slugging and camping and tunneling have always been a thing, but I wouldn’t support removing them in this meta.
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This is just a chicken or the egg argument.
The only way we get to this point is by BOTH sides consistently playing tunnel-y and camp-y or gen rushing over the course of multiple years.
Of course, BHVR's move into a more competitive mindset doesn't help. Neither does their refusal to pick a side.
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Old NOED was one of the strongest arguments against doing totems, not in favour of it. It would need a complete redesign to work the way you want it to, and it would have to be paired with survivor buffs, too.
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Possibly, but after 2.5 years and 1500+ hours I feel I'm well out of low MMR. I'm not being matched with new or inexperienced team mates or killers either. The devs have said before that if you try hard to win then the game will give you more difficult opponents, that's how its designed. Perhaps there's just some of us content with our results and don't feel we need to genrush or tunnel and our games reflect that in our matchmaking.
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Clown gets a hit quite easily when a Survivor stops holding W across the map. Yellow Bottles give roughly the equivalent of 2 levels of Bloodlust to force them into a loop. Then, nearly every loop is dual bottle-able without kicking pallets as explored in the Clown manifesto.
Early game pressure is arguably the most important, and if as Trapper you are setting up 5+ traps before entering chase, that could explain most of Trapper's losses. You only 'need' to set up traps to deny god-pallets/windows. I personally love the silent trap add-on+Coffee Grounds (5% Haste for 5s) for going against better Survivors who still want to stay at a 'safe' loop. With that they think you are mindgaming the loop, then you whip around with bonus speed and a trapped pallet/window.
All M1 Killers that utilize normal chase logic can use the core build of STBFL/Corrupt/Scourge:PR/Pop and get solid results (as long as you aren't focusing the Obsession). Hens333 did a challenge to see how often a powerless Killer can win without camping/tunneling/excessive slugging, and won 9/10 times, expanded to 92% over 104/113 games including other skilled Killers. I don't know your personal skill level, but this Otz video has links in the description to every level of resource desired.
One thing that works at every skill level, is recording all your matches. A fast version is delete the wins, but no one is perfect, so you might be able to find mistakes in winning matches as well. Go over every match, and every chase, and figure out what is happening with every player in every match. The Felix took the window vault without looking each time, to adapt for future matches, you can mindgame vaults for hits against people who don't look. Did the Feng get unhooked and healed in under 8s? Maybe the rescuer had We'll Make It. If you chase the We'll Make It player the team doesn't get heal speed value, and everyone else is expecting that player to be the one to save, so they have to send someone else to rescue instead getting more slowdown also. Adapting to that knowledge in future matches will allow for an edge in them. It helps to change the 'win condition' in your mind to "Did I learn something new this match?" If you learned something new, excellent, you won, but if you didn't, maybe you should look harder. Remember nobody is perfect, both you and your opponents.
Personally I find Clown to be higher on the tier list than most people give him credit for, because he has the same advantage Hope gives. They give new timings to learn for every loop. The Clown player typically has more experience with these timings, and thus is able to gets hits the Survivors risk because the Surv didn't expect it. You can also add more Lethality or Slowdown perks by bringing Cigar Box for Intel. Throwing a Yellow Bottle at a gen you plan on kicking only to see the Mikaela crouching behind a rock with the aura read makes them think it was Nowhere to Hide, then you can Yellow bottle to crossmap and find someone hiding and attempting a hook rescue. Yellow Bottles with no add-ons are net positive for distance even after the reload. Not only that, but it helps you reach a gen for a kick or force a Survivor into a cornered loop sooner, then they are stuck there while you get a free reload. If they try to leave the loop, you can just cancel the reload and hit them before they reach it. The main thing people sleep on is the speed difference with both bottles in play. The Clown goes 5.06m/s and the Surv goes 3.4m/s while forcing Medium Vaults. That speed differential is 1.66m/s total. If you've gone against Wesker and felt so slow with 8% slowdown full Ouroborous, Clown gets to roughly double that speed difference on demand. For anyone learning Clown, I would almost recommend only using Yellow Bottles for 3-5 matches, just to get a feel for them. Then hybridize the Purple and Yellow for that massive difference in speeds to get free hits for days.
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Whatever they need to do to make it so Survivors don't think Totems are a joke.
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I wouldn't go for such one sided result.
First of all, not all killers are viable (when we talk about decent SWF). Killers might get buffed, but most gen regression perks get nerfed as trade, so game duration is usually same or faster...
Main issue is killers are only people, if you get stomped by a tryhard SWF, most people will get annoyed and simply start to tryhard too with perks/addons/playstyle and stomp other side for few games. That's at least my experience...
My last day I played, in first game it was actually 4x MFT with buckle up/FTP, I had fun build and lost, overall really bad experience. So I just equiped my tryhard build and stomped 5 groups in a row. Some didn't tryhard so I calmed down in those games, but some did.
That was point where I decided to take a break again. DBD started to feel like a job for me again and I really don't need that.
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If im the killer in your game you're allowed to do dull totems and chests all game long
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