I still haven't heard a good argument against basekit Kindred
Seriously though I can't see why survivors can't NOT have base kindred which could help lessen the gap between the balance of SWF and solo queue players. Most of the time when I make this suggestion people come out of the woodwork claiming that kindred is suddenly this OP perk on par with dead hard and old DS and the conversations then devolve into killers comparing powerful perks to simple aura reading perk that needs a hook state to activate and needs the survivor to remain on hook to keep it up.
SWF players on coms have real time updates on where the killer is at all times without needing to be hooked to see them and have others be warned of where they are going so for dedicated SWF teams they wouldn't need the perk at all and it doesn't detect stealth killers or killers who use undetectable addons or perks so I'm still confused on why people are against solo survivors having a perk slot free and just making kindred base kit because at this point it's a requirement.
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There isn't one, really. Though, this does come with the caveat that it should only be the teammate aura half- if the killer aura half were made basekit, that would be too much and really isn't necessary.
It's not that solo queue needs to have constant info on par with SWF, that would be nuts, but they should have it for when it's most necessary and when not having it would be immensely detrimental. Not knowing who's going for a save and who's just twiddling their thumbs is a pain point, and the game should be balanced around the assumption that all players are making choices in that regard, not just blindly guessing.
While we're at it, I'd also suggest letting survivors see their teammate's loadouts. That'd help certain perks be more useful among players who want to coordinate with their teammates.
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This is really the last thing that is needed to close the gap between soloq and swf.
Sad thing: players will still leave you on the hook for stage 2 even with basekit Kindred.
Edit: agree with jesterkind, killer's aura shouldn't be a thing, only with perk.
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Maybe before, but since they added the Icons, now it would just be overdone.
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There isn’t one
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That's because there is no good argument.
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IMO you should also be able to see the Perks of your teammates. But only ingame, so when you press ESC you see the names and ping of everyone, the Perks should be added there. (In the Lobby it might lead to lobbydodging)
Why would it be overdone?
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Nobody’s pretending there is a good argument against it, and if they are they are either trolling, or one of the people who thought insta blinds, insta heals, pallet vacuums, unhookable survivors, traps under hooks, etc were “balanced”
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I mean you could say it benefits SWF that don't play with 4 men already but I guess that would be fine. The problem overall is most likely that giving survivors increased efficiency makes it even rougher on killer and probably result in a lot of re-balancing to do, but besides that point I agree that it is not a bad idea.
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I'm all for it. Decent sws have kindred via comms. And stupud unhooking where multiple survs are hangong around hook are one of the main reasons solo q games can go down the toilet so quickly.
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2 base kit perks? Sounds great. Let's add Bond for good measure. And Windows of Opportunity. The killer's aura should also be revealed to all survivors as long as one of them has a direct line of sight on the killer.
SWF has this information anyway, so it wouldn't be that much of a deal, right? Wrong. Because killers aren't balanced around that kind of coordination and information and they never will be.
With every perk you add to the base kit of either side you allow them to run around with more game breaking builds. I remember when survivors had 3 perks and BT and somehow it still worked out. Now we shift goal post from 1 perk not being absolutely mandatory to survivors having all the information in the world at any given time. Base kit Kindred would only be 1 more step towards that.
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Pretty obvious slippery slope fallacy, there.
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You can have it if Killer gets an FOV slider and Shadowborn gets reworked.
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Another solution is to remove SWF altogether 🤷♂️
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sidenote... also see the killer ping. why is that not a thing?
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"it still worked out" yeah because people were absolute trash at the game back then, the game had literal infinites, fast vaults out of 0 momentum and many more different dumb things, if any semi decent player of today played on the old version of the game no killer besides Nurse would ever win a game, the game changed, people got better at it and balancing has to also change according to this.
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This won't fix the gap because the greatest advantage of swf has always been avoiding the terrible matchmaking system by ensuring you have 3 good players on your team.
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You are lucky if all the friends you play with are good at the game ^^ I always had at least 1-2 really terrible players in my 4 mans :D
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Because we now have UI icons, for one.
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Uhm... 6.1.0 was about 1 year ago.
But people were so much worse back then than they are now. Sure. Because after 6 years people still didn't know how to play the game.
I've only played this game since shortly after the Twins' release. There weren't any more infinites back then than there are now (although I am still glad that some loops from back then no longer exist). Arguably less considering that you can lose chase with a killer on GoJ's main building.
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I thought you meant far back when there were barely any usefull perks so everyone ran BT like reeeeeally far back in the beginning of the game 5-6 years ago and so on?
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As for the basekit perks thing it is not about the perks but about the issue that lies beneath, why did they add basekit bt? Because if you don't run BT then you basically farm someone off of hook and having only 3 perkslots left limits your possibilities in perk builds by quite a lot so instead of this killer vs survivor mentality how about we think about the problems the game has and how we could fi x them?
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No. That is not what I meant and I'm not sure how you got that idea. I mean around 2 years back when people were discussing about how great it would be if you could unhook your team mates (or get unhooked by them) without having to use a perk to ensure that you wouldn't farm them (or vice versa).
I'm not saying solo queue shouldn't get any help but there is huge difference between the game holding your hand and giving you the tools play in a more efficient way. A chat wheel (or something similar) would be more than welcome but more base kit perks can only end in a disaster.
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Constantly adding perk effects as base kit solutions regardless of what side they favor ultimately flattens out the game and removes the need to actually make strategic build decisions based on the pros and cons of what type of gameplay experience you're seeking. To zero in on the subject of base kit kindred, what exactly are you hoping to achieve with that? If you're goal is to make more team synergy then people don't even synergize when you go out of your way to run kindred or bond as a perk. If the goal is just to generate more information for the team it doesn't actually do that great of job compared to the hud, audio, and visual cues the game gives already.
Everyone knows you're hooked, most people can guess that the killer is patrolling, chasing, proxing, or just face camping you based on the other tools at your disposal and tiny bit of effort in using a few brain cells worth of deductive reasoning. When it comes to making the save while keeping maximum efficiency, that's a lost cause. Dedicated teams manage that cause they tend not to care about any of the things that randoms care about like completing dallies, tome challenges, pushing their emblem scores. In all my times where I've run kindred it has never made a tangible difference at any perceived MMR level I've been in. At most it just gave people reasons to not even bother attempting saves in a timely manner. If they saw the killer was there, they didn't come which makes sense, but if they didn't see the killer cause the killer legit left and wasn't proxy camping they didn't come until I was basically in second state on my first hook.
So from my experience making that base kit doesn't seem worthwhile and constantly making perk effects base kit harms the value of perks in general while not solving the actual issues you want addressed with proper solutions.
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Because killers aren't balanced around that kind of coordination and information and they never will be.
Yes, and this is good. Because after these anti- and basekit things I don't see a way in which the developers don't buff killers to this level.
Last month i had a match where two guys were on gens while me was on hook stage 2. And third guy just went to cleanse ruin and let me die. He would have disappeared right after me anyway, but he didn't care.
You think basekit Kindred would help people like that? Of course no. This is not game changing info, because any info are useless for silly / unexperienced players, and for good players that is not such a big info, especially after hud update.
It's a really last thing soloq need to stop listening all this "soloq is miserable" whines. Because everything that will be beyond the scope of this buff is either a pure skill issue, or really game changing information that swf has.
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No one is asking for every perk under the sun to be usable as basekit, Kindred is an information perk that is pretty much almost required to use if you play solo and can often feel like an annoyance because trying to experiment with different builds can be a chore if you have to place perks that are pretty much required. It doesn't detect stealth killers or killers who are undetectable anyway it's literally just ONE perk that's a QOL change over all the dozens of perks survivors already have that people want to try out.
SWF players don't have to worry about this because they have Kindred 24/7 via coms and can give real time information about the killer's position EVEN when they are in stealth or undetectable without the need to sacrifice a hook state to do so. Kindred is not useful to them at all if they have coms.
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Everything is a give and take in this game. Players need to learn that and accept that when it comes to asking for base kit variants of perks. Base kit kindred isn't a QoL change in the truest sense as it doesn't address an issue, but rather just absolves players from making decisions. As someone who plays solo survivor exclusively when not playing killer because none of my friends want to play this game anymore, kindred isn't required at all. Having it base kit isn't going make teammates play any better than if you just ran the perk, but you don't need to run perk either just run whatever build you want.
I've said before in other threads, but no amount of feature creep will bring the solo survivor experience up to the same level as SWF experience. They would need to actual in game voice comms and even then in solo play you're most likely still going to be disregarded by chaotic teammates doing their own thing. At some point you just have to play the game and just do what you want as best you can. Experiment with builds and just toss the notion that you NEED kindred out the window because clearly it's holding you back from enjoying the game. I could understand if Kindred provided a feature that relates to accessibility in some way like the way people used spine chill, lightborn, or shadowborn. Just having extra info to have it under the notion that it somehow gives you any equal footing with a group of players who as a survivor you don't have to play against just doesn't seem right.
That's not even taking into account the minor balance issues that do exist if kindred was made base kit. Not every killer can opt out of it nor should they inversely be forced to makes around trying to opt out of it due to it being made a default feature. Is it gamebreaking? No. Yet, isn't exactly fair to alter that particular game dynamic when the outcome is that the actually oppositional side of the player base has default worse gaming experience. Survivors are not hurting for information, no side is hurting information as matter fact. Also, I've seen people ask for basically every thing as base kit at one time or another. There was a period where some folks wanted base kit ruin, base kit reassurance, base kit unbreakable which they tested and was a mess to say the least. People ask for all kinds of things and sometimes they end coming dangerously close to being implemented.
Post edited by ReikoMori on4 -
As of now the HUD already shows what each survivor is doing, so basekit Kindred would just be punishing the killer for getting a hook. If you see a survivor is being chased, working a gen, and maybe someone on a totem, while someones hooked then it should be enough information to form an idea of what to do.
And from experience, this isn't going to suddenly make the same survivors that do nothing with Kindred active suddenly start, and I'm not even going to mention the three letter word.
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It could be added but not for “bridging the gap between swf and solo”, that’s a fool’s errand.
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If basekit Kindred comes, killers should have some compensation for that, right?
The only reason I don't agree with basekit Kindred is BHVR will ignore killers getting nothing at all.
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Goes to show how much swf destroys in this game.
If we close the gap between swf and soloq completely, this would mean, that the buffs that killers would need are insane. Something like 120% movement speed and 20% pain res on every Gen map wide for every hook. That's how dumb it is to see the killer all the time and spread out on gens.
I dont think the game would recover.
Swf is busted if played right. It literally destroys the balance of the game and can't be destroyed because it helps the game stay alive.
This is the grave bhvr digged back when the created the function to play with your friends.
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As you can see from this thread, there isn't a good reason. Just the usual skill issue killers complaining they can't 4k against a team that's not completely braindead.
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Especially since this wouldn't even affect stealth killers, or killers with undetectable perks, people forget that pretty much every survivor going solo runs this perk so it's basically base kit for them and the fact that they don't notice this still or never bring up how OP kindred is proves that it really doesn't affect them.
Any time I bring up base kindred people compare it to actual perks that are problematic from survivors despite kindred never being that strong and requiring a hook state to even stay up to begin with
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I get you but see it's just kindred, that's all. Kindred is required when playing solo and camping killers don't care if they are seen near hook most don't even know the perk exists because regardless of the aura reading terror radius exists. Around stealth killers people naturally assume they could be camping the hook anyway because the playstyle is so common and boring to go against but kindred doesn't even detect them anyway.
It doesn't close the gap completely, but kindred needs so much to work that having it base kit doesn't matter because that survivor is already on the hook anyway.
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Also this is a better compromise than whatever anyone has suggested honestly
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If you want a reason against basekit Kindred, then just equip it for a couple of rounds.
Enjoy watching your teammates ignore you or the basement bubba aura that suddenly vanishes.
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but the survivors got their audio visual settings
it's not entirely fair to give 1 side features without which many people literally cannot play and at the same time punish people without problems with motion sickness by strengthening survivors
it's more likely that the killers get corrupt and the survivors get kindred
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Corrupt literally blocks their only objective when killers can still camp and hook and chase with kindred on as they have been doing since the dawn of time
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how does corrupt corrupt interfere with the goal? just spend 15 seconds and reach the unclosed generator
and I'm very interested in how Corrupt will allow camping if it turns off after the survivor falls
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So is assuming that just because some SWFs can always reliably convey the location of every team-member, the average group of friends can also do that.
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The game IS balanced around SWF, so if there is a valid argument for not making Kindred basekit, its that you can't buff solo without buffing SWF too... and as a solo Q survivor I'd be much more in favour of denying this power to SWFs than gaining ot as a solo.
Outside of that, and this opinion is highly subjective ofc... but as a pretty casual solo Q player who believes Solo is how the game should be played.... My main gripe about adding basekit Kindred is that I as a solo player enjoy the immersion of dbd, and flooding my screen with auras detracts from that.
I still get nervous and tense from time to time in this game, and uncertainty/imperfect information is a big part of that tension. When I see someone get hooked, I watch the status HUD of my teammates carefully to see what people are doing to decide if I need to leave or not.
Ofc sometimes I take Kindred, or Deja Vu, or WoO, but that's my choice to get the benefits of those auras.... and it comes at the expense of another perk more directly linked to my survival, so the games tension is preserved...
The more auras you make basekit, the less investment I need in information perks. I can take all my direct survival based perks at no cost. This gives me less agency over my builds to balance info, gen progression, healing prgression, utility and survival, since info is already provided for me. Why wouldn't I take my strongest survival perks when the game is already giving me perfect information... and what tension is there to be had in that?
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I feel basekit Kindred isn't the right call but I'd be for briefly showing all the survivors each others auras when the hook bubble animation is playing. All it would serve to do is show who is available to unhook and I feel that alone would be all that's needed.
I feel for anti camp there should be a different solution other than to rat out a camping killer by having 100% uptime on their aura without a perk. Maybe an icon on the hooked survivor to indicate a killer is in proximity if they've been lingering for prolonged periods of time. The idea is just to know they are camping so you can make a decision on whether to continue gens or go for the save and not abuse the aura reading for an easier save.
I just feel aura reading should be reserved for perks and addons mostly. Also feel it doesn't solve anything making it basekit even with solo in mind.
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...No? That isn't how the slippery slope fallacy works at all.
But to tackle that idea, they don't need to, that isn't the point of basekit Kindred. The point is that when someone's hooked, all but the most checked-out of teams can muster up a quick "I'm close, I'll save", which is something that solo queue teams either have to guess about... or run Kindred so they can actually make decisions.
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I also get you. Camping is boring. However, it is sometimes VERY necessary to counter efficiency of survivors.
3 survivors on 3 different gens at the beginning of the match. Chase takes around 80-90 seconds (very realistic with mft and problematic maps). The killer WILL lose 3 gens for one down. I'm sorry but if you are not a strong chasing killer, you need to camp at that point or you lose.
This happens often. I didn't even count in toolboxes or deja vu.
I generally dislike making perks basekit. Now that bt got added to the basekit everyone asks for : can me make this basekit?
The game loved for 6 years without basekit bt or basekit kindred.
I would love to have basekit lethal pursuer or basekit corrupt intervention. But I say no to that.
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at that point you still do not need to camp.
you still have 4 gens left untouched and can win by defending it well enough.
unless you also consider that camping, which fair enough.
also, in my experience... rarely will people spawn and go do the gen right next to them right away. takes a bit of time for some reason... or people spawn together so they do the 1 gen together.
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Ok...
With what killer do you defend that?
Needs to be some kind of strong chaser.
And the Gens must be close.
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if people spawned and started working on whatever gen is closer to them. they likely 3 genned themselves. it's just how it usually works out since survivors tend to spawn away from the killer. the 3 gens closer to the killer at spawn are likely untouched.
and I think every killer can defend a 3 gen. some better than others, but certainly doable for all. specially since you got a hooked person, now is the time when survivors start making mistakes.
but if you do get the 90ish sec 3 gen pop. AND they are spread out. in that case, you might need to camp.
or hope the next chases are pretty fast.
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we should add that but at half the range and normal will become 1.5 times usual
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I don't know about basekit but would be nice to delete that stupid massive bubble when someone is hooked, I never use kindred because I can't see killer aura for 3-4 seconds with that thing, it was not like that before
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no camp is rude
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