A problem with Made For This that I see nobody talking about
I'm sure we're all pretty sick of the "MFT is Broken" posts that have periodically sprung up ever since End Transmission released, but I feel like there is one part of the perk that everybody seems to be ignoring, that being the effect it can have on a player's muscle memory
Picture a scenario for me, you are a completely new player to DBD, you've bought End Transmission because Gabriel looked pretty cool, you read his perks and see that Made for This lets you run slightly faster while injured, you put it on and see that it does help quite a bit, it lets you get that little bit of extra distance you might need to reach a window or pallet, and is overall pretty useful
Then, after a couple hours of using it, you try a few other perks, and then you stop using Made For This, and start getting downed a lot more frequently then when you were using MFT, which in turn might lead you to do one of two things
- Learn to play without the extra 3% Haste MFT gives you
- Put MFT back on
This seems pretty simple, until you remember that BHVR are a bunch of Statistic-Stevens and change perks based on their usage rate, MFT is used a lot and is talked about a lot
So I ask you this, what happens if BHVR decides to nerf MFT by removing the Haste rather then the Endurance?
That extra 3% boost that helped you get to those loops you wouldn't have reached otherwise will no longer be there to save you, and the two options you now have are to either suck it up and keep playing without it, or quit because you're so used to playing with the boost that you can't play without it
Hyperbolic? Maybe, but I have seen it happen a lot before in other games
It reminds me a lot of Pre-Tools of Torment Eruption in a strange way, Killer players can try to deny that Eruption wasn't what was carrying them during it's reign as the unquestionably best slowdown perk in the game, but you can really tell who was good at killer without Eruption and who relied on it to win for the first 3 weeks after it got nerfed, not to say MFT is anywhere close to being as broken as Eruption was, even with abusing the bugged Buckle Up/FTP combo (Yes it is bugged even if BHVR doesn't say it is, FTP and MFT don't work together for granting endurance, neither should Buckle Up, but that's it's own can of worms) it's nowhere near as good as 25 seconds of stopping survivors from doing anything to progress the game-state, but it does raise a very similar point, MFT, if used too much, acts as a crutch for bad players, and when it gets nerfed, and it will, they'll have a far harder time adjusting to playing without it, or they'll whine about it and quit playing
This isn't to say that we shouldn't nerf MFT, it absolutely should be, but it does raise a important point, don't rely on super strong perks too much, nor should you get too comfortable with certain perks, practice the game without them and recognise that they can and will be changed whenever BHVR wants them to be
Comments
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Thing is the 3% Haste is not the issue, the issue is the Endurance status that comes with it like its a value pack at a discount you find at Walmart.
It messing with muscle memory isn't really an issue, especially with the example you gave with new players. They are probably the last people who are getting value out of this perk since they don't know how to properly loop properly, nor are they going to be going for risky plays like committing to a heal when the killer is coming. MfT gets the most value the more experienced the user is and doesn't necessarily act as a crutch since those people were/are playing just fine without it.
Also FtP and Buckle Up is not a bugged combo since Buckle Up doesn't require you to be injured unlike MfT.
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MFT doesn't even seem like a perk that extends chase time as dramatically as people think. (Every 60m ran saves .12secs which is roughly when BL1 activates).
MFT seems more like a whiffing perk which is why I'm guessing Coup got buffed.
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I'd definitely love to see the math on this one!
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My math is wrong in the original comment but the difference is negligible.
Survivors run at a base of 4.0m/s. To run 60m it takes 15 seconds.
Survivors with MFT move at 4.12m/s. To run 60m it now takes roughly 14.56 seconds.
Even in smaller numbers, to run 8m with MFT it'll take 1.94 seconds.
Of course tiles aren't 60m apart but survivots are still going to loop you the same without the 3% haste.
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It takes 20% longer for 115% killers to catch up and a whooping 30% longer for 110% killers to catch up to MFT survivors.
This is assuming it's just a straight line, of course.
Survivors do not loop you the same without MFT as the killer's collision box doesn't change and the survivors are moving faster with MFT. The chase is no longer in a straight line and the extra speed is now 'worth' more.
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I think i´ve seen more threads with reasons to not nerf MfT than actual threads asking for a nerf...
If they nerf it, it probably won´t be any time soon. So don´t worry.
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The endurance is definitely the big problem, along with stacking speed perks but that’s not a problem with MFT its a problem with core mechanics as a whole
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You definitely do need to be extra skillful while playing against this perk with 110's for sure.
Miss a single shot against someone using MFT as Deathslinger or Huntress, for example, and the time sink is exponentially greater if you choose to continue the chase.
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Don't you have any experiences M1 attacks barely reached survivors in loops? MFT makes all of these attacks misses. My hatest perk is MFT when I playing as M1 killers in actually.
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Straight line chase math is not the relevant portion.
The problem lies on the fact that survivors with MFT , every 5 seconds are 0.6 meters ahead of where they would be otherwise.
a lap around a filler tile is easily 4-5 seconds, with other structures being more, being robbed of a hit because "3% goes brr" is what feels so extremely cheap about it.
This is an example clip : https://streamable.com/whcaot over the course of 10 seconds, the ada was 1.2 meters ahead thanks to MFT, the 3% haste was enough to cause an underserved chase extention while robbing the killer of a hit.
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3% on it's own is rather small as you figured out. But that 3% isn't on it's own, it's in relation to a Killer's 15% advantage.
3 out of 15 is 20%. So any chase will take roughly 20% longer. The type of chase doesn't mater be it straight line, looping, or what ever. The fact is that most every chase against a wounded Survivor will take up to 20% longer and that's a hell of a difference and since MFT has no conditions or limits beyond being wounded and not exhausted that time sank to overcome MFT's 3% will just continue to grow larger and larger.
It can and will easily snowball beyond control against the majority of Killers. That then leads to high tier Killers being used more often as they are the only ones "viable". More Killer meta builds as there's "no point" using anything else. More camping/tunneling as what downs/hooks Killers do get they will want to take advantage of. And more sweaty Killers in general. THAT then leads back to Survivors being drawn into their own meta builds and their own sweaty playstyles and that then is just a feedback loop of both Killer and Survivor pushing each other into meta and sweat.
That's just MFT. Combo it with other perks and it just gets that much stronger like with Hope, healing builds, other perks that work when wounded, and more.
No single perk should have that kind of power and DbD has had several single perks like this over the years. For Survivor you had Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Circle of Healing, and more single perks that NEEDED to be nerfed as they was too strong. Killer also had it's own problem perks in Ruin, Eruption, and so on that needed nerfs as they was too strong on their own before being comboed with others.
MFT isn't as bad as some of those past OP perks. But it's certainly up there and is too strong for it's own good or the overall health of DbD. But like all of those other perks, MFR is likely to stay for a year or more before it gets touched.
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New players are not going to get value out of MFT, so I don’t really see this being much of an issue.
MFT is really only strong with veteran players / experienced loopers.
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People are also forgetting that MFT 3% makes the difference between reaching a pallet/window or getting hit and going down, which is a HUGE difference.
If you take the hit while injured, you are downed and the chase is over; if you vault a window/drop a pallet right before the killer can strike, the chase continue and it can go for much more time - meaning even minutes can be "lost" for the killer because of this perk only.
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No the 3% Haste is absolutely a massive issue, idk where anyone got the idea that the Endurance is the issue, the 3% Haste is a massive middle finger to M1 Killers who are already the weakest in the game.
Unlimited 3% Haste for being injured that doesn't have any negative drawbacks or some kind of limit is not okay and it is better than every Exhaustion perk easily.
Take away the Endurance and make MFT 3% Haste last 30 seconds twice per match, MFT reactivates only when fully healed and the perk deactivates for the rest of the match when both instances of 30 seconds are used.
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Name me 3 killers that are affected the most by MfT
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What killers do you think can deal with it easily throughout the course of a match?
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Can you answer the question he asked? I’m actually curious too.
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Not in any order.
Trapper. Bear traps are, iffy, at best. Leaving Trapper as a Killer who has to depend on M1 attacks the vast majority of the time.
Hillbilly. Billy-boy should be a decent Killer as he can travel quick but it takes skill to learn how to curve. Problem is not a lot of maps allow for curving or long sprints. So he has to fall back on M1s.
Doctor. Doc is just a M1 Killer. Not much else to say and his shocks don't really last that long and aren't that easy to time. MFT screws with those shocks that much more.
Shape. Another M1 Killer. Stalking people takes time and you can realistically only have so many EW3 hits. And even in EW3 he's just a M1 Killer with a slightly longer lunge.
Hag. Same problem as Trapper, Hag has to set up traps and it's simply not worth chasing people outside of where your traps are. Hag being a 110% Killer makes MFT that much worse though.
Nightmare. M1 Killer (seeing a pattern?). His dream snares aren't bad, but they don't work unless a Survivor is sleeping. Who takes time, or only after landing a hit. Dream pallets? Yeah...
Pig. M1 Killer. Her stealth takes time and gives a large warning, plus it isn't really useful to end chases outside of 50/50s. Her RBTs are her best feature, but they only work after spending time to chase/down Survivors.
Legion. It's not good. Legions whole skit is to wound Survivors easily. But needs to chase to finish the job. If Survivors want to be wounded?
Demogorgon. Shred can already be baited or dodged normally leaving Demo with falling back on M1 attacks.
Twins. It's Twins. Enough said.
Nemesis. This guy already has to land 3 hits to down with his power. That's bad enough, making that 3rd hit take that much longer or depending on M1s more is just an insult.
Onryo. Good mindgame potential, for a M1 Killer.
Dredge. M1 Killer that can sometimes trap Survivors in a bad spot.
Knight. The guards become a joke with MFT. Leaving him with just M1s or some how sandwiching Survivors between himself and a guard.
Singularity. He's already has a rather high skill floor in order to use his power and dealing with EMPs. Leaving M1s as the bulk of his playstyle.
Xenomorph. Xeno is "better" than Nemesis in some regards. But that doesn't save Xeno from having standard chases.
So yeah. At least half of the Killers are heavily impacted by MFT as they depend on the fundamentals of DbD in going for M1s by having situational powers. The other half have "decent" means around MFT as their powers are more dependable. If the Killer player is skilled enough to use them that is and even they MFT will still give a noticeable effect.
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Pretty wild how a (basically) permanent 20-30% increase in the speed differential between survivor and killer can have such an impact @_@
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As long as MFT is in the environment, it will be left alone for a while because it is not necessary to deal with acceleration cheaters individually.
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Ok, now answer this
Out of those killers listed, which ones completely counter all Exhaustion perks?
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A lot more than you'd think considering MfT is about the same strength as basically any Exhaustion perk
Killers like Trickster or Doctor may have a bit of a harder time than the others, but they already struggle with perks like Sprint Burst, Lithe or Dead Hard
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A lot more than you'd think considering MfT is about the same strength as basically any Exhaustion perk
Except, y'know, never turning off and giving constant benefit.
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exhaustion perks can only extend a chase once. Part of the problem is that 3% can be the difference in missing multiple chances in one chase. Its part of why some people want a proper deactivation limitation other than being healed.
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Yeah but here's the thing right, a Survivor is at their strongest on their own when in chase. If they are surrounded by pallets and windows they are going to be able to waste A LOT of time if you decide to commit to them regardless of what perks are in effect. Made for This takes this strength, and makes it even stronger. Allowing you to greed pallets and windows a little bit more thanks to the extra speed. Another thing to keep in note is Survivors are at their strongest in the early game, considering the killer has absolutely no pressure, they're likely all spread out, and all resources are available.
As the game goes on how ever, resources start to be used up and the map starts to shrink as you should at least reserve 1 part of the map to yourself (not necessarily a 3 gen, just something that's much easier to patrol than having 3/4 gens in 3 different corners) during late game. Resources (more specifically pallets) should be quite sparse at this point and that's where MfT doesn't really do anything. Yes you have a 3% speed boost, but what good does that do when you have literally nothing at your disposal? This was/is the exact same case with Dead Hard, just to a much lesser extent.
The reason why I think perks like Sprint Burst, Lithe or even Balanced Landing on some maps are stronger, is because regardless of where you are, you should have a way to activate that perk to be able to reach some where safe and start a chase that you had no business starting in the first place. Depending on what you're able to reach its probably even better for the killer to just leave you considering you shouldn't be committing to chases for too long when there's only 1-2 gens left.
Now this isn't me saying Made for This is a bad perk, far from it. The only thing making this perk overtuned is the Endurance effect that comes with it. These 2 effects have absolutely nothing to do with each other, and even proccing the Endurance doesn't cancel out the other effect/deactivate it unlike other perks with a similar style. I see the speed boost sort of like Resilience. It definitely has its moments, but its far from OP and will very rarely be the deciding factor in a game
This answer also goes to @Raccoon , @Chewy102 and @Snowball777 . What I was going to do is record gameplay but my last few games have all been against complete newbies, or they gave up right at the beginning
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Thing is they can be used to extend a chase yes, but they can also be used to START a chase that otherwise you would of been downed
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Billy isn't really affected by MFT. I've played against really good Billy players who can curve at a 90 degree angle to get the down.
Legion was reworked to where getting a fifth feral frenzy hit downs the survivor. You ideally want to chain your feral frenzy hits to get that fifth hit, and yes it applies through the deep wound effect. Legion, much like Wraith, is less affected by MFT due to Feral Frenzy allowing Legion to bodyblock survivors.
Dredge stands no chance in a straight line, but at a loop? Dredge wins regardless of MFT. Don't forget that Dredge's remnant provides him with anti-loop.
Freddy has snares that provide the same amount of hindered as clown's bottles. Yes, survivors have to be in the dream state but the activation requirement for MFT is that survivors have to be injured.
Knight and Singularity I have no real opinion on as I don't see them often enough to make an accurate assessment.
Twins aren't really affected with Victor being significantly faster and Charlotte basically being an M1 killer. The few Twins players I do see get their downs with Victor.
MFT only really shines at loops, and Demo's Shred means Survivors probably aren't going to make that vault or pallet in time.
So, it's not quite half the killer roster affected by MFT.
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Were the current maps designed with almost permanent 3% haste on Survivors in mind? If yes, then sure leave the haste portion of MFT. If the answer is no, then maps would have to be rebalanced.
Just like how some Killer players relied on Eruption as a crutch to win games and suffered when it got nerfed, wouldn’t more Survivors start losing chases when MFT gets nerfed resulting in a spike in Kill rates? That would lead to another round of complaining and devs would either have to nerf Killer or buff Survivor in response. More unnecessary work all because of one perk and leaving it in game for too long.
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All resources are available at the start of the map, yes.
When all the pallets are used, it still takes you 20%-30% longer to catch up (even just to start a chase) - Maps are not a straight line, and every fast vault that a survivor makes adds to this time sink if they know where/how to run - in a WoO meta, most people know where/how to run.
When all the pallets are not used, you lose additional time/distance (a lot, actually) for every break action you take while trying to secure a down/clear pallets with someone using MFT (Aside - this almost completely negates the usefulness of 'kick' builds against teams running the perk in the current meta - Nowhere to Hide helps against non-confident/non shift-w teams, but these are generally not an issue anyway.) This additional time can allow for someone to make it to a further pallet/tile they would not be able to, normally, and leave a gap in any dead zones you're trying to create.
If you're not breaking every pallet and just trying to game as many pallets out of someone as you can, they're still getting all the benefits of MFT which extends this process exponentially and can put you in another time wasting situation depending on certain tile set-ups as you'll need to break certain pallets if MFT is being run or else you will eat additional rotations which may/may not lead into another tile being chained (or even skipped - with WoO this is easier to do).
Additionally, if they're super competent and/or organized and don't even bother dropping pallets until they're injured, you're going to take way longer to clear an area (or even a single pallet) after you catch up from your post-hit fatigue. I've seen a huge uptick in 'taking the hit' against non-instadown killers since MFT has come along.
Even if all pallets are used, MFT still allows for extra loops at certain structures/windows + the time it takes you to catch up while they lead you to said area - you can't break a window :(
Survivors lead the chase - It is very difficult to 'reserve' a section of the map when the only viable target may/may not decide to go there.
Survivors can also MFT away to their preferred location as soon as they see a killer coming (with a potential heal 99'ed if the killer is not running Hemorrhage, which allows for further confident/greedy play).
Trying to close the gap or reroute them is going to take 20-30% extra just to start a chase, and unlike Sprint Burst/Lithe/etc it does not shut off once they make it there + they can have DH in the chamber as well.
3-genning is a possible counter, but even then they can shift-w away at each approach, burning a lot of time to even start a chase/creating stale gameplay that seems to be mentioned daily on the forums.
If both players are playing well (or perfect if you want to pretend/go to extremes), MFT is always going to extend chases, cost more time at loops through virtue of just existing, and even make it difficult for a lot of killers to start chases in favorable positions against observant survivors.
If this sounds rambly, I apologize, just trying to explain my thoughts!
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I mean as you said yourself maps are not a straight line, and all killers will at least have something in their arsenal to be able to catch up a bit faster/get a hit.
Committing to a chase is what really screws you up and thats not even talking about MfT, thats just in general. Now if you see the Survivor really messed up, take the free down. How ever if they are sentient you're better off harassing the rest of the team and trying to split your pressure evenly to buy yourself more time because thats exactly what you need no matter what killer you're playing, time.
"If both players are playing well (or perfect if you want to pretend/go to extremes), MFT is always going to extend chases"
Same as every other exhaustion perk, which again are probably more impactful since you can either avoid a hit al together (making it harder for the killer to snowball) or prevent a down.
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Disagree entirely. The 3% IS the issue
It's like dead hard all over again, bad players (the majority?) won't make it anywhere with DH for distance, but good players will know how to use it very well, and considering how unbalanced maps are, that haste effects does make the difference
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An average exhaustion perks guarantees you win one loop when used while MFT gives you an advantage state at all times when activated. A good player knows how to extend that advantage while a less experienced player relies on the exhaustion perk to gain distance. You're moving 20% faster in chase which allows you to capitalise off of the Killer significantly more.
If the Killer does a mind game, just run to the next loop. If the Killer has to slow themselves down to use an ability, just run to the next loop. If a Killer can barely reach you with their ability in a tight loop normally, MFT nullifies that interaction. A generic exhaustion perk allows you to challenge the Killer and win in these scenarios once per chase, but with MFT you can continuously keep winning these scenarios without the need to challenge. The only downside when comparing MFT to an Exhaustion perk is that MFT cannot get you out of jail for free if you make a mistake that can be rectified with your Exhaustion perk, it's down to the Survivor to maintain their advantage against the majority of Killers.
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I 100% agree with you; it’s for sure becoming a “crutch” perks much like old DH or old DS (before inconspicuous action was introduced) and you were basically untouchable for 60 seconds.
The endurance aspect of the perk isn’t an issue, in my opinion. It falls under the “high risk, high reward” category as healing someone close enough to the killer to get value from the endurance is hard to pull off and doesn’t happen every game.
The thing I find most problematic about this perk is it’s interaction with the exhausted mechanic despite it categorically not being an exhaustion perk. I’d suggest two potential fixes to balance this perk:
- turn it into an actual exhaustion perk.
- or a better option, much like old Lucky Break, the 3% haste is granted for 60 seconds and there’s a timer on the perk from when you first get hit. If you’re healed, the timer stops until you’re injured again and this repeats until the 60 seconds is over. This is far more balanced as it allows survivors to get one really good chase with MFT without it being a constant problem for killer.
I’m never usually one to fall into the discourse of “problematic perks” as a lot of it is hyperbole, but MFT stacked with Resilience on maps like Lery’s is just painful to go against. Some of those chained windows create infinites and it’s not ok.
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@Shroompy I'm just curious my dude (as ofc respect thine opinion), did you see the experiment Otz and Hens ran on identifying MFT?
On average vs. Otz Pig, MFT allowed Hens to extend the chase by about an additional ~75-125% once wounded over not using MFT (we'd see around a minute extra downtime without MFT and about 1m45s/2m15s when using MFT). This was on Garden of Joy, and ofc no 2 runs were the same, so it was spawn reliant, however... it was a noticeable time jump when Hens had it.
Now ofc this isn't enough data, you'd need way more players of different skill levels, multiple sessions to account for adaption of playstyles, different characters, different maps etc to really get a good data set where you could start drawing some full conclusions...
However even in this isolated test, this time jump seems pretty disgusting to me as an ignorant layman... the fact a good survivor can use MFT to keep their resources for at least 1 extra loop each time before they have to be thrown seems insane strong to me... Other exhaustion perks give a one time save, but MFT stays in effect for every interaction, and the value just mounts up.
In fairness... Both Hens and Otz agreed with you and said the 3% wasn't really the issue, it was the uncertainty of it being in effect that's the actual problem... as Killer CAN account for it.... but I'm not sure can agree with this when a really experienced Pig player can take on average an additonal minute to down their first survivor... and if everyone runs MFT... you breaking off for someone else, that isn't gonna help... by the time you burn resources the game is over...
My concern is, MFTs speed boost will obviously affect M1 killers more... and M1 killers hate this effect, they don't want to deal with it, and everyone is bloody using it, and I guarantee they aren't using it for the pick endurance... Regardless of whether it's truly OP or not, the MFT speed boost is annoying for M1 killers, and the paranoia of it is gonna drive people away from playing M1 killers, even more than them just simply being worse than Nurse, Blight, Spirit etc already does... it really doesn't seem a healthy perk for the game.
That's my untutored idiot opinion anyway.
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Trapper - Fundamentally an M1 killer, no anti-loop, screwed over by MFT.
Wraith - Again, M1 killer, no anti-loop screwed over by MFT
Billy - Pseudo M1 killer since the power at loops is essentially worthless, screwed over by MFT.
Nurse - Teleport power can mitigate MFT.
Shape - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Hag - Pseudo M1 , 110% *very screwed by MFT*
Doctor - M1, screwed by MFT.
Huntress - 110 killer, While straight line chasing is not impacted by MFT, tall loops render huntress an M1 killer, and therefore she gets screwed over by MFT.
Bubba - Pseudo M1 , no anti-loop , screwed by MFT.
Freddy - M1 killer, weak anti-loop, screwed by MFT.
Pig - M1 killer screwed by MFT.
Clown - M1 killer, weak anti loop, screwed by MFT.
Spirit - 110 killer, Pseudo M1 , screwed my MFT.
Legion - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Plague - M1 killer for 99% of the game, screwed by MFT.
Ghostie - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Demo - Pseudo M1 , not as impacted in long loops / straight lines, but still screwed by MFT in normal tiles.
Oni - Simple M1 killer for over half the match, power still gets soft countered by MFT, killer is screwed by MFT.
Slinger - 110 killer , completely screwed in normal tiles by MFT, not impacted in straight line.
Pyramid - M1 at his core, M2's are easier to dodge when you move faster, screwed by MFT.
Blight - Rush power can mitigate MFT, mft still allows for easier dodging.
Twins - M1 at its core , Victor is easier to dodge when you move faster, screwed by MFT.
Trickster - Same as huntress and Slinger, screwed by MFT.
Nemesis - M1 at his core, power requires 3 hits to down, power a while back got buffed so the speed nemi moved was 100% while he has his whip out. MFT sends him to the pre-buff state, screwed by MFT.
Cenobite - At his core, still an M1 killer , screwed by MFT.
Artist - Power mitigates MFT , still easier to dodge crows with MFT.
Sadako - M1 killer, screwed by MFT.
Dredge - M1 killer, even with the remnant "anti loop" survivors can just hold W to the next loop and render it useless, screwed by MFT.
Wesker - Dash power mitigates MFT, MFT still allows for easier dodges since you move faster.
Knight - Core M1 , companions move at 102.5% (4.1m) MFT hard counters the power, screwed by MFT.
SM - At its core , an M1 killer but the passive haste from drones mitigates MFT , still somewhat screwed by MFT.
Singu - Core M1 , MFT renders the Purple Soma family addon (5% haste while overclocked but -20% duration) completely useless and a waste of an addon slot - screwed over by MFT.
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I consider "Pseudo M1s" killers that while having damaging M2's they still have to play loops the same way a regular M1 does. Bubba is a fine example
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Now percentages
Out of 32 killers 28 get screwed over hard by MFT. (87.5%)
Out of the remaining 4 killers, 3 are able to mitigate MFT, even though they still get minimally impacted by it. Namely Blight, Artist and wesker. (9.3%)
The only one that didn't feel MFT in any meaningful way is nurse... because she fundamentally breaks the game's mechanics to begin with. (3.125%)
How do you still stand here defending MFT when it completely screws over 90% of the killer roster with a straight face is beyond me.
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I tried for the life of me to find that MfT testing video but I couldn't find anything other than Hens' perspective of some of the 1v1s.
With that, here were the times for injury then down:
2:36 / 3:25 | 2:02 / 4:08 | 2:28 / 4:16 | 1:51 / 3:22 in the matches with MfT equipped.
0:50 / 1:21 | 3:11 / 3:50 in the matches with NO MfT.
Many people were pointing to the 'chase extension' timer, aka the difference between injury and down. But a lot of people decided to ignore the healthy chase, while MfT wasn't usable and not a factor, yet still adding to the time in chase without MfT.
Changing the factors to w/MfT and without, we get a different slew of numbers.
With MfT: 49s, 126s, 108s, 91s --- AVG 93.5s
Without: 156s, 122s, 148s, 111s, 50s, 31s, 191s, 39s --- AVG 106s
Now to be fair, this is a small sample size, but this is also including the stat dragging down (against no MfT) 1:21 double hit chase where no other chase even got the first hit that quickly. As a result, I would argue that because of MfT, people play more greedy, and thus make more mistakes.
All that being said I am 100% on board with removing MfT's Endurance, and adding a perk tooltip when you injure/get injured an MfT/STBFL user, or enter chase with an MfT/STBFL user. I just wouldn't go to the extreme to remove haste stacking. Funnily enough removing haste stacking would nerf M1 Killers more than the top Killers, as Clown and the like are the main beneficiaries of haste effects. Blight speed add-ons change the speed formula instead of giving haste, so he can still 'stack' haste with add-ons and 1 perk.
Edit: I'd also be fine with swapping the haste values on MfT and Dark Theory, it would be good to see Dark Theory get some use.
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Im not saying it doesnt make a difference, Im saying the perk is nowhere near as problematic as people are making it out to be.
If anything its very much like Resilience, its a really nice perk to have and sometimes that little boost of speed is just what you need to reach that window or pallet.
Much like Resilience as well its probably one of the last perks to actually be the deciding factor between winning or losing a game, unlike say Lithe, Dead Hard, or Sprint Burst
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same problem as all other op perks. Strong killers are unaffected and weak killers are left in the dust
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Quick disclaimer, I'm not going to argue whether it is or isn't too strong. That's totally up to y'all to decide, I'm just here to collect feedback. That said, I don't think that new players can reasonably be factored into a discussion for or against nerfing Made For This.
First, it's not very common for someone to pick up the game and immediately buy one of the newest DLCs (unless they happened to see the trailers and really be interested). Beyond the fact that they just bought the base game and still have things to try and learn, there's years of DLCs to choose from, and the older ones will tend to go on sale for a deeper discount. The odds of them picking this particular DLC of all the options would be fairly low.
Second, I think you're overestimating a new player's ability to use a 3% speed boost. While there's the odd person that may have watched a bunch of streams of the game before trying it themselves, most newer players don't have anywhere near that level of experience. They won't be looping, running tiles in a way that gives them a fast vault, etc. More often than not, they'll be running away from the Killer and hoping the come across a pallet or window. That's not to say that they wouldn't get any value out of it, but a slight speed boost would provide much more advantage to someone who knows what they're doing rather than someone who's aimlessly running around.
On a related note, you'd also have to consider the more readily available options, like Sprint Burst. Being a Meg perk, every new player can easily gain access to it. The two are exclusive, since MFT wouldn't benefit you since Sprint Burst would make you exhausted, so you'd have to pick one or the other. When you put the two effects side by side, MFT doesn't look as appealing unless you've been around for a while and know what even a small % speed increase can do. Sprint Burst gives a massive boost of speed and gives them a major head start, meanwhile MFT gives them only a slight speed boost and only while they're injured. For someone who doesn't really know where they're going when they get chased, that massive head start will probably help them far more than a small speed boost.
But beyond all of that, we can't let something like a new player's reliance on a perk prevent us from balancing it in the majority of matches. As much as first impressions matter, if it causes problems elsewhere, we still need to be able to deal with those problems.
I am in total agreeance with the last point, though. If you only use something because it's strong, you should not be surprised when it eventually gets adjusted. Becoming reliant on powerful things might help you win in the short term, but will probably make things harder on your in the long term.
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i agree with peanits analysis. MFT is not useful for new players because new players struggle with killer looping in general regardless of m/s increase. their understanding pathing and understand of looping is not developed to matter. MFT is strongest on 2,500+ hour survivor that min-max distance and has deep understanding of looping. the strength of the perk is that it brings back an old mechanic that was once existed on every exhaustion perk. that mechanic is exhaustion when running. Rechargeable exhaustion. MFT gives you no cooldown on exhaustion but distance it gives is lower then other exhaustion perks. in theory, you can have infinity reward from the perk even if the infinity reward is theoretically very small. the weaker player will not use the incremental small reward effectively while experienced player can use incremental small reward an infinity amount of times. It is strong perk for 0.1% best loopers. low impact for new players. average power-level for average survivor player. if there is large skill-cap between killer player and survivor player, the perk exaggerates the killer's inability to play m1 killer/use ability effectively. the perk also exaggerates safe loop design in the game but this is just a problem maps and loops more so then the perk.
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I think it's hard to argue against the idea that Made for This is way too versatile. I personally do not like how it can effectively heal a downed Survivor to full health when comboed with Made for This while also severely weakening its downside.
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I feel like this post exposes exactly the problem with how you all balance the game. I came into this thread late so i haven't seen everything, just your post and what you replied to. But i'll explain.
On your first point, i agree with you. Many people actually keep saying MFT is fine because of the stats you released recently about the top perks. And i point out that 9 of the 10 survivor perks used are free perks available to all, or perks on survivors that people get for buying the base game. The main interesting stat there is that windows of opportunity is so used, even though its on a survivor you have to unlock. Thinking new players are going to be buying DLC or even seeing it that often is incorrect.
The second point is where i disagree with you. I agree actually in concept with what you said. A new player's ability to use a 3% speed boost. But that is where the problem is. In the hands of a new player, this perk is extremely weak, because they aren't going to be able to use it to its full effectiveness. But high level and more experienced players can. To the point that it clearly becomes overpowered.
This shows that MFT needs a rework at best, but at the least it needs a nerf. In the hands of lower skilled players, it is borderline useless, but in the hands of very good players, it tips into being overpowered. So if that is the case, why not change it? If you nerf the perk, you aren't going to be hurting the low level players who are using it, because they aren't using it properly to begin with, and aren't able to use it to its full effectiveness. So nerfing it, isn't going to hurt them that much. Maybe they go down a second faster? What difference does that even make to them? But if you nerf it for high level players, you alleviate a lot of stress and deal with this problematic perk.
A better example would be reworking it. I also look back at one of the best decisions BHVR has ever made in regards to perk balance. And that was the Old Hex: Ruin. Not the 200% one, the OLD Hex: Ruin. You remember, this one:
Then it was changed in patch 3.5.0 to do this:
Barring the terrible decision i think it was to nerf it in patch 6.1.0, but that is a topic for a different day. This was the single greatest balancing decision that BHVR has ever made. The old Hex: Ruin, made it so that you had to hit great skill checks, or find the totem to mitigate its effect. There was also the strategy of "Gen tapping" if anyone remembers, that would make the gen take about 20-30 seconds longer, but you didn't have to deal with the hex anymore.
Against low level, newer and lower skilled players, this Old version of Hex: Ruin was by far the most overpowered perk in the game. New players (i remember when i played with my friends back in the day when they got me into this game) can barely hit REGULAR skill checks as it is, and now you are throwing this at them and expecting them to hit Great skill checks or find a totem that they barely even know what it is. And they don't know the totem spots.
But, against high level, high skill players, the old version of Hex: Ruin was pretty much useless, other than to make great skill checks weaker. Top tier survivors are hitting great skill checks while blindfolded. On top of that, they memorized the totem spots typically, so the ruin would generally last maybe 30-60 seconds in a match, making the perk mostly useless, and why people would just run PGTW instead, or with it even.
Then came patch 3.5.0, which caused a big uproar among the community. At first i didn't like it either, then i did the math, and i realized what was done. you balance the perk for all levels of play. In lower skill games (where the totem will likely last longer), now the perk was heavily nerfed because as long as you stayed on the gen it didn't do anything. Additionally, because it required killers to pressure survivors properly to get use out of it, instead of just for free, it was weaker. Because in these lower skill games, killers typically aren't pressuring survivors properly.
However, in high skill games, this perk became a staple. Good, experienced killers who knew how to pressure survivors properly, could suddenly slow the game down significantly, and force the survivors off of gens, until they found the totem. Which would often buy killers a good amount of time in the early game to get their snowball going, which is really important in high level games.
In short, this changed nerfed it for low level players, where it was a problem, but buffed it for high level players, where it was too weak.
And with MFT, we now have a scenario that is opposite the old Hex: Ruin. In the hands of low skill players, this perk is useless, but in the hands of a top tier player, it becomes, by far, the most powerful perk in the game. And this is why i think something needs to be done about it, so that players at ALL skill levels, can get some use out of this perk, without it destroying the game balance at the high levels.
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It doesn't screw over 90% of the roster. Your arguments don't even factor in individual player skill, nor do they account for how each killer plays. I'm not going to rattle off how most of your list is just wrong.
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"Individual player skill" is an irrelevant metric, nobody should have to be a 10k hour "I stream this game for a living" kind of killer just to be able to counter mid mmr survivors with MFT.
My list is accurate , but feel free to attempt to correct it, You saw the math, MFT actively screws 87.5% of killers and provides a relative soft counter via easier dodges against another 9.3%.
Thats well over 90% of killers being negatively impacted by MFT's existance, you cannot defend the perk, MFT needs to be gutted ,as soon as yesterday.
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Subtle cheaters would increase their movement speed by a few percentage, just enough for the killer not to notice or seriously question.
BHVR saw this a thought it would make a great perk!
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But see this is one of my problems with you guys that's always IGNORED. When it comes to killers... You nerf top down. You take the experience of the LITERALLY best players of the game and nerf accordingly. I have almost 1K hours split between PC, ps4 & ps5 and still can't solo blaze everyone with Nurse. Her nerf was because of the god nurses.
When it comes to survivors, it's buff bottom up. MFT is clearly a problem for players that have been playing your game long enough to understand it. (I've been here since Myers. I bought the game because of Myers.) MFT is still destructive for newer players when it's new player vs new player. Experienced players, especially swf can easily take this "harmless" perk and abuse it.
That is the point being made. Eruption, OG POP, etc weren't destroying new players left and what, but what happened? It was destroyed because the top level players could use it to prevent gen rush in a sense. MFT is just as destructive as METTLE OF MAN was. It would've never been in the game. You don't think it's a PROBLEM 4 or 5 of your 30+ killers can reliably mitigate this?
5 of 30 @Peanits
I also do not intend any disrespect to you or your game. I'm not here to attack you. I'm simply stating, the lifeblood of your game understand the issue.
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And what does that have to do with MFT? No one is running Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balanced Landing with MFT. So the counters against those is worthless for MFT as the only "counter" for those is to bait them out. Most mainly use MFT with Dead Hard and the only "counters" for Dead Hard is to force a Survivor to be exhausted or bait it out. But there's not that many of perk/addons that apply exhausted or else Dead Hard wouldn't have been such a problem in the first place. And baiting/waiting out DH also isn't an option with MFT as MFT counter that counter as it forces a Killer to lunge more and lunge hits are easily tanked with Dead Hard.
Player skill certainly effects balance. But that's a 2 way street. If you account for Killer skill, then you also account for Survivor skill. And the balance when accounting for player skill changes EVERYTHING! We could legit spend a year in debate going over on how skill effects just 1 Killer doing a constant back and forward of "what if"s between that 1 Killer, their power, their addons, their perks, what map it is, what the tile layout is, how many Survivors are alive/downed/hooked, how many gens remain, and more. Then go through ALL of that again comparing it to the other side of the coin for Survivor's skill, items/addons, perks, and so on. And repeat it all over again for each and every Killer.
Player skill is important. But it's impossible to account for without hard data we simply do not have and that the devs refuse or are unable to share. So we just gotta work with what we have. And that's a more general understanding of the game as a whole and it's fundamentals. And those fundamentals are being screwed by MFT due to those fundamentals being M1 Killer gamplay making up the vast majority of DbD outside of a select number of Killers with powers that aren't situational and a select few of those having powers that are actually dominate or vastly alter their gameplay with how different it is.
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Because MfT is what would replace SB, Lithe or Balanced Landing in a build and they have the potential of getting you out way more sticky situations than MfT ever will. You want to know a downside to this perk? Not being able to run any of these meaning you better hope you're at least close to a whole set of loops for basically the entirety of the game or else you're going to be going to the lobby faster than if you had just equipped one of the mentioned perks.
That being said its more along the lines of Resilience where its a nice bonus to have, but its not game breaking and surely wont be the sole reason why you lost in 99.99% of your games
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Player skill is a very relevant metric. If it wasn't, a baby survivor could loop M1 Killers for days.
It doesn't provide "easier dodges" and to say you need to be a 10k hour streamer to counter mid mmr survivors with MFT is disingeneous.
The list of killers adversely affected by MFT is actually pretty short. Myers, Trapper, Hag, Pig, Doctor, Sadako, and Nemesis. That's 7 killers.
Freddy and Clown both apply the same 15% hindered to survivors. Freddy via Dream Snares, and Clown via his purple gas.
Plague only has to be right up your butt, fully infect you and then insta-down you.
Ghostie can expose you. Also has two exhaustion add-ons.
Billy has an insta-down, and really good Billy players can curve short loops on a 90° angle.
Bubba has an insta-down. Moves at 5.29m/s during a chainsaw sweep. Not screwed by MFT.Z
Dredge's anti-loop forces survivors to either leave the loop, where they're most likely to go down or get downed at the loop via the remnant. If they leave the loop, you're close enough that MFT doesn't get value. This isn't Sprint Burst.
Huntress forces you to drop the pallet, hits you with the hatchet. Only screwed by tall loops and would be screwed all the same due to requiring bloodlust just to catch a survivor at a loop. Not screwed by MFT any more than she's screwed by being a 110 killer. Also has an add-on that causes Exhaustion.
Deathslinger has the same problem as Huntress. Screwed by tall loops, but screwed all the same without MFT in play.
Oni also isn't screwed by MFT. Oni's Demon Dash is faster than the survivors. Same deal as Billy. I've played against some really good Oni players who understand how to curve to get even seemingly impossible downs.
Wesker's Dash Hitbox is very forgiving, and being fully infected afflicts you with hindered. Not screwed by MFT.
I don't think I need to explain how Blight's lethal rush works, and how Blight is the least impacted by MFT, second only to Nurse in that regard.
Spirit - If you're playing her like an M1 Killer, that's on you. Her phase walk allows her to move at 176% movement speed. You aren't escaping Spirit with MFT unless you're at an extremely safe loop, at which point she'd be screwed all the same. Not screwed by MFT.
Knight only has to sandwich the survivor between himself and his guard or put them in the same position as Dredge in order to secure the down. Not screwed by MFT. Also has an exhaustion add-on.
Skull Merchant doesn't even need to play the game. Set up a three gen from the start of the match and watch the survivors get bored after 10 minutes and voluntarily let themselves get killed. Chase-wise, Skull Merchant's haste from her drones makes it so you may as well not be running MFT, ontop of the drones exposing survivors who linger in their zone for too long. Not screwed by MFT. Also has an exhaustion add-on.
Singularity's teleport invalidates pallets when timed correctly, resulting in an insta-break. Soma Family Photo haste gives Singularity the advantage over MFT, especially when paired with Kid's Ball Glove to mitigate the duration penalty.
Artist - Anti-loop forces survivors to leave the loop. Also has an add-on that causes exhaustion. Not screwed by MFT.
Cenobite - Survivors have to break three chains to get away and are forced to slow vault while still chained. Three chains brings them down to 1.13m/s, and even a single chain brings them down to 2.26m/s. That's almost a 50% movement speed reduction with just one chain. Definitely not screwed by MFT.
Legion doesn't care about MFT. Legion only has to get 4 Feral Frenzy hits and then the fifth hit downs the survivor regardless of their deep wound state.
Pyramid Head's ranged attack invalidates pallets. You throw the pallet, you get hit. You greed the loop, you get hit. No more disadvantaged by MFT than he would be if the perk didn't exist.
Trickster has enough knives to spam that it doesn't matter if you dodge a few. Trickster simply doesn't care about MFT, and isn't as affected by it as you think.
Twins - Victor moves at 6.0m/s. A survivor with MFT doesn't have enough momentum to dodge Victor like it's the NFL. It's entirely a skill issue if you miss your pounce.
Wraith has an extended lunge upon uncloaking, moves at 150% speed while cloaked, and can body block survivors while cloaked. Not screwed by MFT.
Demo's Shred works in a similar fashion to Wesker's Dash, albeit far more restrictive. Pretty easy to hit survivors as they approach a loop, pallet or vault.
But sure, bud, the majority of killers are screwed by MFT and are forced to sulk in the corner and do nothing. I'll defend MFT until someone comes up with an argument that isn't just "Won't someone please think of the poor M1 killers?"
The perk currently does a little too much, but instead of nerfing it into oblivion and paving the way for the inevitable return of exhaustion perks, I suggest that every killer receive an add-on that causes exhaustion on a successful basic attack. A strong perk remains strong, and the "Poor M1 Killers" get a counter to MFT, Exhaustion Perks, Iron Will, Head On and any other perks that cannot be used while Exhausted.
With the amount of perks currently in the game, it's only going to be harder to come up with perks that are strong, useful or worth running. Taking the nerf bat to things is the simple approach, but it's not always the best approach. I don't particularly desire to see another meta shake-up.
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Player Skill is relevant in that you assume a degree of competency instead of observing things in a vacuum. A baby survivor is going to get zero value out of MFT, while a more experienced survivor who understands how to run loops but still makes mistakes is going to get some value out of MFT.
Rarely do you see MFT causing the problems at the average skill level that people say it does. The perk is a massive problem at high MMR, but what isn't? The game just isn't balanced for high MMR.
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