People's perspective on Xenomorph.
In my recent discussion, which was a contrast to all the "Xenomorph is balanced" dicussions, I asked about how Xenomorph's tail attack, in this state, is balanced. Here is a summary of all that happened.
. I got called an "entitled survivor main" for asking (didn't even bother arguing his point)
. Blamed for not giving Xeno time and to stop "crying for nerfs"
. The topic got deflected to the Remote Flame Turrets
. People argued that remote flame turrets are strong, slow the killer down a lot, and give you time to get to a loop as Xenos break the turrets even without a cooldown (I don't know which game they're playing)
. The Xenomorph got compared to Huntress and suddenly Huntress is OP?
. Window/pallet vault baiting is how to dodge the ability (once Xenos learn to be more patient and improve their aim, this strategy will become obsolete)
. People argued that you can react to Xeno's ability in time (the maths was done by someone proving otherwise, please tag them if you remember who and I'll edit them in)
. Dodging (when you think the tail attack will happen) was suggested as a good strategy when Xenos can just follow that mistake up with an M1
. General agreement that the ability causes lose/lose situations frequently
. People genuinely agreed on the idea of a cooldown for the tail attack
. People assumed I placed turrets on top of gens (?)
.Pre-dropping pallets counters them (most Xenos don't break pallets and just take advantage of it)
. you need distance management to counter them (distance counters every killer lol)
. Not loop in a lose/lose situation (why would a sane Xeno let me leave a loop when they HOPE I drop the pallet?)
. Run towards already placed turrets to counter (most turrets are right next to gens getting worked on)
. Hold W (crazy good advice)
. General agreement that SWF can utilize turrets well compared to solo queue
. The classic "get good" and "skill issue" comments
. Apparently not having a sound cue nor animation for the ability isn't a cause of concern
. Some people basically admit to facing new Xeno players and basing their opinion on that (no consideration on how Xeno mains will perform in the weeks to come)
. Complaining that the killer needs time to settle in (Xeno mains will only IMPROVE with time)
. The idea that the tail attack is something you can react to is very prominent (seen as a counter)
. Some general tips on how to waste a lot of time moving turrets to "strategic" locations to annoy (?) Xeno more
It is important to note that there wasn't any semi-decent answer to my question. Most people just shared their realistic perspective and argued their point which I thank them for because it just highlights how hard it is to argue that the killer is balanced even with how this forum mainly portrays him as 'balanced'. Also, every argument about the ability being balanced that got a ton of upvotes was just people telling me to get good and providing terrible advice alongside it. Typical.
Comments
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agreed on all points.
I just want to note, that playing as xeno, there was exactly and precisely 1 instance where turrets got me out of power when I didn't want to let it happen - and that was when 2 turrets were placed next to each other (so survivors now have effectively 2 turrets that take more then double the time to set up if this should be the counter) and survivor was taking me to both of them (I didn't realize, that my flame time didn't went down in time so 2nd turret was destroyed too late). Also whoever is destroying turrets with M1 is doing it wrong and loosing distance for no reason
Once I learn how to hit over all obstacles, I see no counter.
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Thanks for sharing that. Finding a legitimate story from someone on this forum is like finding a gem I swear. I really hope they don't nerf him to the ground on your behalf. A little change should help a ton though.
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huge huge respect for this post no one could've said it better.
i totally agree with all your points
i legit don't understand what magic effect this killer has on people they'd relentlessly defend it with bad arguments.
i hope bhvr realizes that altho the killer just came out there are causes for concern with its power and unlike singularity in this case it's the killer being a bit too much.
Post edited by DEMONANCE on8 -
Thanks for the encouragement, it genuinely means a lot. I'm currently getting educated on that discussion about how I should watch YouTube videos of survivors going against new Xenos and steamrolling the killer and how Xeno deserves all the hits since they are playing good...
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I agree with everything. I don't know why all this is a lethal defense that I haven't seen in any other killer
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TBF I realized I was using brown addon for shorter turret range. Once I removed it, I do get knocked out of power from time to time (still, it's rare and does not bother me one bit in steamrolling survivors). He will definitely need nerfs.
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I was expecting name-calling but this was next level. This forum just doesn't promote healthy discussions anymore.
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How is the tail attack unbalanced?
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Ummm. If this isn't satire, go onto my previous discussion.
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Basically it boils down to a few key complaints, not ones that I entirely agree with but basically:
- Minimal telegraphing, turning chases into 'guess when the killer is gonna press m2'
- Minimal punishment for missing, the cooldown time might be 3 seconds but from my experience it feels like Xeno is barely slowed down for missing leading to what I'm going to dub 'Pyramid Head syndrome' (aka just spam spam spam until you get a hit).
- Very little build up to having it; it's a strong chase power that's basically always there unless survivors are really good with turrets which, as you can imagine most aren't, In fact I doubt anybody is 'good' with them yet.
- Xeno has addons that make their counterplay even worse. Reduced flame distance, turrets auto destroying, knowing where all of them are when traversing and so on.
- And one last one which is highly subjective but a seemingly generous hitbox AT TIMES. Sometimes it's really easy to dodge, other times I've seen a clip or two of survivors being hit OVER tall obstacles by it. Bizarre.
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What are you using for your balance point?
For the average potato player, yeah they might be a bit strong but that's not saying much.
For really good players I don't believe it's Nurse Blight level which is necessary to compete.
For above average players they're probably fine since that's where A tier is "balanced" I believe and most people seem to put the Xeno in A tier.
Post edited by MrPenguin on5 -
I played a couple games of him tonight and I can 100% attest that the 2.0m/s cooldown Xeno is suppose to move at is not infact the speed he moves at during his cooldown.
But I can also attest that his hitbox is wonky and you basically can't hit any survivor within like 1m of you.
Would be nice to see these issues get resolved before judging how strong he actually is.
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Xenomorph is fine other than turrets being hard to place where you want on some maps.
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on survs not being good with turrents yet - the "yet" in particular: I don't think any survivor will ever be able to really get good with turrets. Just see where they can be placed. Try to find a reasonable spot on, e.g. RPD, or in/next to a bunch of standard tiles and you come up empty. Carrying a turret around for 2+ minutes to find a good spot is actively sabotaging the match. There are only so many viable spots within a reasonable carrying distance, and guess what, not just you memorise those spots, the Xeno does too (which turns every viable spot into an obvious, easy to destroy spot).
On hitting with the M2: Drag. Xeno can drag horizontally and vertically. There are scan points along the attack's duration that extend over time - and that can be changed by dragging up or down. This way you can hit around and over obstacles, if you time it right/have the fine motor skills and control needed. The faster you drag the further the scan points are apart; the wider your spread is. A google search for reddit posts on infographics/visualisation of the power should bring up posts that explain better real quick.
as for OP: thank's for the summary, as far as I can tell it really sums up the current perception and state of discussion.
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There is both a visual AND sound cue to his power, not to mention he CANNOT cancel out of it after buffering it. He has to hard commit to using it. As opposed to say, Huntress, or Nemesis, or Pyramid Head. There is also plenty of punishment to missing. He loses quite a bit of distance. It's not exactly a "strong" chase power. It's more of an antiloop power. A chase power is typically mobility oriented (or at least, allows for hits from very far away), and chase powers typically counter W holding, which Xeno can't. He does have a mobility aspect to his power (tunnels), but his tail is an antiloop, not a chase. And I'm not even sure if I would call it a "strong" one. In terms of antilooping, it's about on par with Nemesis (minus pallet breaking and with less range) and Pyramid Head (minus hitting through walls and range).
Good thing about his counterplay not being very strong. We're not talking about an exceptionally powerful chase/antiloop power like Singularity's, that needs to have some form of hefty counterplay. The guy is literally an M1 killer without it, and is a sidegrade to Nemmy/Phead with it. Not to mention neither of them have any particular counterplay to canceling out their power.
I have about 6k hours in DBD. The hitbox for his tail is probably one of the smallest and tightest in the game. As far as being hit over tall obstacles, it's due to the nature of the hitbox (it angles down). It's an extremely hard maneuver to pull off because you typically hit without LOS, but it's incredibly rewarding to hit.
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Your belief doesn't mean anything and contributes absolutely nothing here. Tell me why you believe that because, you know, that's how arguments work.
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Visual and sound cue? Since when?
You get punished for missing the ability and lose distance? His ability has NO cool down. He loses barely any distance so no need for the exaggeration.
Xeno is never in M1 state unless you're going against a SWF with good turret locations. No point even mentioning he's an M1 killer.
I do not care that you have 6k hours. It's completely irrelevant in this subject.
The hitbox being small doesn't mean anything. If the server is laggy, absurd hits will happen no matter what. Why do you think killers use VPNs?
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You get punished for missing the ability and lose distance? His ability has NO cool down. He loses barely any distance so no need for the exaggeration.
Factually incorrect, it has a 3 second cooldown and halves his movement speed during that time.
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Okay, explain to me how instead of just saying they are fine. You simply cannot answer the question so you just say blank statements like that.
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Okay, compare that to pyramid head. His cool down is way longer than three seconds when they put their blade in early. They also get slowed down whilst in their ability and the camera movement becomes stiff. Xeno doesn't slow down in his ability, recovers faster, doesn't have any camera stiffness, and moves faster after the animation.
Compare that cool down with any other killer and you'll realize that three seconds isn't much for such an ability. They'll also lose the least amount of distance when the ability misses.
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Compare with any other killer and you realise none of these killers have a counter tool to disable that killers power entirely.
The Tail Attack is intended to be unforgiving, so that survivors are encouraged to make use of Turrets.
If the Tail Attack could be dodged conventionally by any skilled looper with a constantly clicking flashlight, there would be no need for Turrets.
Xendritch said it well here:
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A single turret doesn't get Xeno out of Crawler Mode. How are you meant to make use out of turrets whilst looping? Would love an explanation. The tail attack should be something you can react to like Pyramid Head's ability. As of now, mathematically, you cannot react to it and just need to dodge based on feelings.
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Funnily enough if you had continued to read my topic on fair nerfs...
Again you've just completely disregarded my stance to insert your own.
No, the Tail Attack should NOT be something you can easily dodge, because the killer is not designed that way.
Instead, Turrets should be more impactful against killers who can reliably hit them.
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You see the tail whip backwards, that is the visual cue. And you hear the whip-like sound of the tail shortly before it shoots out, that is the sound cue. He has a 3 second cooldown after using his tail attack, and moves at 2m/s during that time. Survivor can make up to 6m of distance (as much extra distance as you would have received from a Sprint Burst use) during that time.
Xeno WILL be in an M1 state if you set up a turret and run him into it, and he misses hitting the turret (which happens quite frequently because their hitbox is actually broken, I've M1'd them many times at point blank while they were shooting at me and somehow still didn't break them). Otherwise, the turret forces him to hit it and lose distance and vision of you briefly. You can use this time to make distance and run him into another turret. Or, you can set up ambush turrets around corners and run him into them, and essentially force him to pick between chasing you or breaking the turret.
The hitbox being small absolutely means a lot. Bad ping and VPNs don't change the size of the hitbox, they only change the latency of the hit on both ends. If a Xeno whiffs, they whiffed. And a small hitbox makes whiffing much more likely.
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You missed hitting a turret..? Just use M2, all PC players do it and only console players struggle with M2. You simply cannot blame it on the hitbox if all the other Xenos I've faced have zero problem with it.
Xeno will not be in an M1 state if the killer doesn't experience skill issues and is incapable of hitting a stationary object. Once the object is hit, you gain a tiny bit of distance, not even enough to get you to a new loop and Xenos will not lose sight of you that bad that they lose you.
The problem with moving turrets into corners of the map is that survivors are heavily hindered so it would be a bit silly to carry turrets so far.
The hitbox being small is a coin flip. You either hit something you shouldn't have or you miss, just like Nemesis' tentacle. PC players shouldn't have a problem with aiming more precisely, but controller players do unfortunately.
Latency suddenly meaning nothing in the context of absurd hits is a bit sillly. Sure, it doesn't actually change the hitbox, but it sure does feel like the hitboxes are larger.
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The M2 is even less reliable to hit the turret with. Not only is the hitbox broken for the turret, the M2 hitbox is also skinny. If you happen to whiff (which can happen quite easily even if you're spot on the turret, if you're looking too far up), you're basically forced out of power for free. Or we could hop in a custom right now, and I'll set up a bunch of turrets, and you can show me how easily you M2 them.
I didn't say corners of the map, I said corners. The intersection of two walls is a corner. Set up a turret around it, moderately far from the wall so it can't be M1'd, and run the killer around that corner going the opposite way. Killer has to decide to either get burned out of power or turn around and destroy the turret, giving you lots of distance.
No, it's not a coin flip. Nemesis' tentacle is easier to hit because 1) it can be buffered 2) it can be dragged for longer 3) it doesn't have a vertical division and instead covers a plane directly in front of him.
Doesn't matter how it feels. What matters is what is actually happening. It "feels" bad to get grabbed by a Wesker from 6 meters past a wall because you have really bad latency, but on his end, he grabbed you properly. This is a ping issue, not a killer issue.
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Let me repeat this. EVERY single Xeno I have faced has never missed hitting a turret, whether they M1 or M2.
We suddenly defending the use of VPNs now?
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even i as a survivor main think that the tail attack should not be easily dodge it would make it useless and make it very weak but the hitbox should be change it is god damn awful.
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Again, you're acting as if I want Xeno to be a toned-down Pyramid Head. I'm not saying it should be easy to dodge the ability. It would ruin the whole purpose of what a killer is. Is Pyramid Head's ability easy to dodge in higher MMR? No, absolutely not. But there's still a chance to react to his attack. Something Xeno lacks.
Sure, we can buff turrets to mitigate the issue. I wouldn't mind at all.
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I don't want it to be easily dodged, just possible to react to.
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Then every single Xeno you've played against is a god and they deserved the win. The killer didn't get them the win, their skill did.
When did I defend the use of VPNs, or even mention their use? Talk about arguing in bad faith, hot damn.
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You simply react to disagreement with aggressive statements like that.
Damn near everything people have been saying in regards to the power not being balanced is wrong. There is in fact an audio cue, the tail attack can be dodged(I have seen it and I have done it), the turrets can be effectively used to couter the xeno's power even by solo queue survivors(I have seen it and I have done it). The only thing that might need to be changed is the xeno's movement speed in miss cooldown but that is it.
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Wait till you discover how to drag your power properly. You are up for a nice surprise. Xeno's M2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then nemesis's tentacle - pallet breaking and distance included.
Other thing to note is, that it takes about 400ms after clicking M2 to attack, but during half that time you are totally free to adjust and even during hit you can very well drag the hitbox - meaning what does it matter that hitbox is small when you can drag it around half the screen? (Actually it does matter - I can hit over so many loops that huntress can't and only DS can, but DS can't drag his hitbox so he actually needs precision)
Playing xeno and using these 2 things - my chases are usually very short
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If the hitbox connects with any obstacle, it disables. Dragging can screw you over just as much as not dragging. As opposed to Nemesis' tentacle that's 4 individual hitboxes, each of which computes individually.
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I'm still waiting for a video that shows us a Xeno M2, where dragging the power actually makes a difference. Every video I've seen so far, looks like Xeno could have gotten the same hits of they had just aimed the power correctly. And dragging the power gives the survivor more time to dodge the attack, compared to just aiming the power properly and skipping the dragging motion.
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That is problem so rarely, it's not even funny. Because in this regards those short 4.8m helps. I already can quite reliably hit people hiding behind pallets (even if they move towards tall part of it) and about 50% hit over tall-ish obstacles (dragging is brutal for this to "fix" your aim).
You really just need more practice with dragging. Nemi is very much laughable in comparison (and I am not even considering crouching after vaulting) + the fact you can control M2 freely even after pushing M2 (so going left or right after vault is also meaningless - in short, don't vault if you don't have A LOT of time after it) makes the killer so insane
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I think a good idea would either to be removing his M1 while he is in his tail attack mode, or possibly adding a need to charge up (visibly or audibly queued)
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I just want the turrets to not be completely useless. Every Xeno just uses the same addons and turns the turrets into a non factor. Turrets don't do anything against a good Xeno. The fact that they take so long to set up makes them a detriment to survivors. I actually played a dozen Xeno games last night and I was NEVER at any point seriously threatened by the turrets. They were a slight inconvenience at worst. If you have any amount of situational awareness then they will never be a problem for you. They are definitely underpowered when you consider how oppressive Xeno is in chase.
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This is like saying that when a huntress throws hatchets, this is a visual signal, and when you hear her voice as she throws this, this is an auditory signal.
By then it's too late and you get hit
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Technically you are right. But I want to see you getting reliable hit when you see 2 pixels of the head from survivor over the loop. Sure, you can directly aim and hit it without dragging, but it's infinitelly easier to overshoot and drag down.
Same with survivor hiding behind pallet or crouching behind window.
Also the time difference is literally something like 50ms or maybe a little more - that's not enough for survivor to seriously move away his hitbox
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This isn't the gotcha you think it is. There is a visual and audio cue to Huntress PULLING UP though. That's the equivalent to Xeno whipping. If you get zoned in the open by a fully charged Huntress, you're gonna get hit. And that's okay.
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So let's summarize these arguments
1 : You must use a flamethrower and you must place it in a good place!
-No matter where you put it, it will be able to destroy it and chase you very quickly
2 :Place two flamethrowers
-OMG, I wasted so much time on two flamethrowers , and for what? He enters a tunnel and after 3 seconds he regains his power (Seems like a good deal!)
3: Hold W when he misses Tail attack
- It's useless ,he moves at 2.0/s for 3 seconds, so you don't gain a good distance before you get hit
In short, you are put in a lose-lose situation.
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This is how Huntress has worked for years, and Huntress needs to deal with projectile arcs. Anyone that has played Huntress for a while should be fine with just properly aiming Xeno's M2.
...They would also know that if you want to hit a survivor behind a pallet, that 1) it matters if the survivor is ducking next to the tall half or the short half of the dropped pallet, and 2) it matters if the killer realizes they are supposed to be on the short side of the dropped pallet, so they have a diagonal angle to the survivor, so there's way more than "2 pixels" available. Like, killers aren't supposed to be on the tall side of a dropped pallet, and try to M2 a survivor that's ducking on the tall side of the dropped pallet.
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Huntresses hatchet hitbox is waaaaaaay larger. She can't hit 2px holes like xeno can (it's even quite difficult to hit survivor that crouches behind tall side of dropped pallet like you mentioned if you don't throw from angle - unlike xeno that can semi-reliably hit it with dragging his M2 - even if you see just 2px once you practiced it enough). She can't drag her hatchet to adjust or hit behind corners (on good ping) the way xeno can. And her hatchets have speed which is low until fully charged - compared to Xeno's hit-scan.
Also and this is very important, huntress has long wind-up time where she is slow - allowing you to dodge her hatchets (that's something people asked for btw) - and slow speed if she holds or misses her hatchet for a proper risk to use her m2 (unlike Xeno's barely slap on a wrist with his 2m/s). Speaking of which - she is 110% killer to even compensate. IDK if you would be ok with alien being 110% and having lullaby.
Maybe this is the difference though. I have yet to see survivor being able to fully hide behind pallet against xeno, but I totally do that against huntress (and huntress gives me even considerably more time to even hide in a first place)
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Umm, I was asking what your balance point was and that didn't get answered. You're being unnecessarily hostile.
Are you concerned about the average player or good players?
Most people I see are putting them in A-tier, that's the general opinion, and for "good" players that's the "balance" tier afaik, hence why for example Huntress is considered balanced in general.
But the average player struggles with anything around B-C tier in my experience, so obviously A tier would be too much for them.
So before even trying to talk about anything I need to know your viewpoint and what you're talking about and you should probably answer a question that's asked. Since you know, that's how discussions work.
They're too strong for who?
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
"Is Pyramid Head's ability easy to dodge in higher MMR?"
Yes. That's why you wait for an animation lock playing as him. Unless you're playing more for fun than to win.
If I get hit by a PH shot while I'm not stuck in an animation that's 100% my fault. It has a sound que before and during the shot, a giant red warning strip on the floor, a delay before it even starts traveling, then it needs to actually reach me. It's pretty easy to dodge on reaction in my experience.
Do you want Xeno to be similar?
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1) Xeno can't hit 2 pixel holes. The hitbox is way bigger than that, which is why some people complain that the tail attack can easily get stuck on the environment. And you wouldn't be able to drag attack to a hole anyway, because the attack stops if it hits anything.
2) If the killer positions properly near a dropped pallet, then they get way more than 2 pixels of the survivor. Look at the above screenshot. That's the survivor trying as hard as possible to crouch at the tall side of a dropped pallet, but the killer knew they should be diagonally at the short side of a dropped pallet.
3) Hatchet windup is not relevant to this conversation. We're discussing whether or not dragging Xeno's M2 makes a noticeable difference, with how easy it is to aim the M2.
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1, fair point - I exaggerated with 2px hole, but still the hole does not need to be even close to the size of hatchet
2, this is it - huntress needs to angle herself, xeno does not have to. This is huge during chase as you leave much less chances for survivor to get away
3, ok. If we limit it to the effect of dragging only, then my point 2 is all that is relevant. And maybe one point for you is, that xeno can't orbital strike (but c'mon, nobody uses this reliably - it's just a fun thing u can do when you get so lucky and it works). Still - it's much easier to hit reliably say over car loops w xeno then with huntress (because hubtress gets her hatchet consumed by edge of top of the car so damn often or it flies over, where xeno has it trivial to overshoot and drag down a little)
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I've still seen zero evidence that dragging Xeno's tail attack causes it to curve. Any attack I've seen done by tail dragging, looks like it could have been done without the tail dragging.
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I swear it did on the PTB, I had a streamer scream fck when I did it around a corner, and I think on live for a short bit over RPD walls I was using it as such.
But, once they changed the cooldown the tail drag became limited to vertical.
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