Tunneling needs to be adressed
Tunneling was seen once in a while some years/months ago, today, tunneling right at the start in pretty much every trial.
- it is unbearable
- the game is clearly not designed around tunneling as there is literraly no good counter to it, especially with the anti-loop killers we get now
- it entirely kills the fun for the whole survivor team
I don't know how this major flaw has never been adressed for years but it has to go now.
Tunneling is only manageable in SWFs, every other survivors setup cannot deal with it at all.
Comments
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Sure but look at the other side of tunneling.
- It helps a Killer punish an unhooking done right next to the Killer.
- it helps a Killer get a quick down in places they would not.
I would not call it a flaw, rather a tool which Killers can use.
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If this is meant to be a game that is primarily played solo, and it's meant to be a fun party game instead of being hyper competitive, then the devs should take a sledgehammer to the worst offenders and then balance the game around what's left. Having a core component of the killer's arsenal being the ability to guarantee the death of the first survivor they find is bad design if the game is meant to be light hearted fun.
Why would you punish the person getting unhooked? They have no control over what their teammates do.
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Why would you punish the person getting unhooked? They have no control over what their teammates do.
Survivors are a team, other team members doing bad decisions is going to be of detriment of another member all time time.
Different kinds of mistakes punish different survivors.
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If I was in that scenario, at worst I'd tunnel the crap out of the unhooker. But I wouldn't grief the player who was unhooked. I'd genuinely rather lose a kill or two if my only other option is that.
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Right now survivors are using perks that improve their chase. Things like made for this, sprint burst, lithe resilience, etc. Which makes sense why would you not want to extend your chase as a survivor? The thing is survivors are given the tools to run things that prevent tunneling from happening. There are plenty of second-chance perks in the game that can protect you from being tunneled and even extend chase. Things like off the record make you silent to keep you out of the chase and disincentives chasing you after unhooks because of the lengthy endurance. Even perks like Dead Hard can protect you from being tunneled off the hook and or extend chase. So please consider putting a second chance perk inside your build because at the moment not many people are running second chances meaning tunneling is running widespread. But if everyone is running a second chance perk then killers are more unwilling to tunnel knowing they would have to invest too much into tunneling.
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Why the unhooker? if they are healthy its just 25 seconds out the window.
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If you look at the killrates on nightlight compared to the 60% average the devs wanted I can see why this happens more and more.
In the current survivor-meta tunneling is more necessary than ever.
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Tunneling is not more necessary than ever. Plenty of Killers have proven that they can stomp Survivors without tunneling.
On the flipside, if high MMR is the nightmare that people say it is, wouldn't it be a good thing to lose games and lower your MMR?
And if certain Killers are weak as people say they are, wouldn't it be a good thing for them to continually get stomped? It may actually incentivize the devs to improve them rather than looking at their high killrate which was only acquired by camping and tunneling.
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Since some time i play both roles, but because i can play Wraith, Nurse and Sadako (wonder why noone calls her Onryo) i am more loyal to this side, and i would be more happy for nerfing MFT.
That's being said. Because i play both roles. I know how tunneling and camping is unhealthy. I really dont care about winning, and try to have as much fun experience as i can. Using meme builds, doing certain objectives or roleplay in both roles. But tunneling AND camping are as bad because those tactics removes the "playing" aspect from the game. I bought the game, i spent my earned money for it and wanted to have at least a little fun. But then i land on a map where in 6s i got stomped by the Blight, around the tile with nothing to use, and end up on a hook... Very satisfying game. But this is not the worst. I could be unhooked, healed, got to the gen and try my beat. Maybe i was unlocky. But no. I got unhooked, and chased by the Blight. Chase lasted around 15 seconds... Overall gameplay was less than a minute... Looking for group, and loading game lasted longer than gameplay. And if one wants to say its healthy gameplay, then im sorry, You are wrong.
If one wants to say, that tunneling is only way for killer to win, then:
- One should practice more and get better, because its false.
- If devs thiks that, then maybe buff killers basekit, but remove tunneling entirely.
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As a killer, I get frustrated watching other Killers excessively camp and tunnel, if you're 3 gens down and have 1 hook then its understandable, but doing so at 5 gens is just lame... however it is part of the game... but what survivors need is an potent threat/deterrent against it.
Most discussions I've seen agree survivors need the 5 second stun from Decisive Strike back.
DS has been given a hefty list of requirements now, and as such it can ONLY be used vs. Tunnelling, and is in a very healthy spot... but the 3s isn't really enough to be considered a strong deterrent... bringing back up its strength would certainly not be a bad move for the game.
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This is why killers can reach 500+ winstreaks which is impossible in any decent pvp game, when you see bhvr not touching DS for years thinking a 2 seconds stun is enough you know they're totally clueless, tunneling is overkill with all the buffs it's a shortcut to free wins
devs read their spreadsheets and overnerf random things based on popularity like self care/iron will, but typical blight/nurse main tunneling at 5 gens with 500+ winstreaks is ok
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I remember when playing Killer was in its easiest state and people were still claiming "tunneling is more necessary than ever"...
I understand tunneling to gain pressure when there aren't many gens left and you want to eliminate somebody asap as a strategy. But somehow hardcore-tunneling very early on became the norm now. I always expect the killer to do so and they never disappoint. Like sir we're still at 5 gens and I just want some bloodpoints...
And don't get me wrong I'm not telling anybody how they should play but it has become very predictable and boring.
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Sure, but look what comes along with the tunneling:
- It completely stomps only casual teams. Strong teams will wipe floor with tunneler.
- Killer doesn't learn how to apply pressure and with effortless wins is sent to high MMR with zero skill, where he's getting destroyed.
- That both destroys fun and cultivate frustration for casual teams and tunneler (camper has exactly same issues).
So I would call it a flaw. A tool is not supposed to work only on uncoordinated casual teams.
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Isn't this true for every strong tool in dbd? We could say the same of Pinhead's Box, Sadako's Condemn, full-gen builds, Nurse as a whole, etc. This game is full of tools that destroy people who can't play around them, while only a minor inconvenience to those who can.
Tunneling is just another strong tool - the only difference seems to be that a notably high percentage of players seem to think that it's a strategy that should be eliminated / heavily nerfed instead of learning to play around it like we do with any other strong tool.
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I think the difference is tunneling early on denies the survivor to play the game. Also there's no playing around tunneling unfortunately. If a killer wants to tunnel someone out of the game they'll be out of the game eventually unless the killer is a bot. The game is designed for the killer to catch up to the survivor at some point.
Still I'm not saying this "strategy" should be taken away from the killer but it shouldn't be the norm either.
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Tunneling is not an instant "I-win" button. A few posts above even you acknowledged that if an unskilled killer does it, he'll get destroyed.
For the record, the counterplay is body-blocking, saves, optimal timing for unhooks, running interference so killer loses the target, doing gens, using anti-tunnel perks. You may not save the mark from the sacrifice, but you can make it cost 3-4 gens.
I could turn around what you said, and claim getting tunneled is a skill-issue from the survivor team, but I wouldn't generalize like that. These things always boil down to the efficiency-difference of the two sides. But if survivors convince themselves that tunneling can't be played around, they set a boundary for themselves they won't be able to surpass.
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I think you read someone else's comment regarding your first statement because I didn't say that.
Those things you've mentioned realistically don't happen in a regular match where survivors are a bunch of randoms with no communication. Bodyblocking doesn't make the tunneled survivor invincible. Down the bodyblocker and keep chasing the victim, even more pressure. Also what anti-tunnel perks? DS with a 3 second stun or OTR which is irrelevant if the killer tunnels you off hook? BFR.
I could also turn around what you said and claim tunneling is a skill-issue from the Killer. Why do they have to resort to this strategy instead of showcasing their skill? But I won't.😉
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Indeed, my bad.
Bodyblocking gives more time. DS is good if the user picks a spot to go down where she can reach a strong pallet or window from. OTR is great - it's a free health-state before the killer realizes it's in play, and it's even better after that. Hitting right off hook means the killer has to virtually face-camp, so gens aren't pressured and survivors can get great value from optimally timing the unhook.
There are also Distortion and Dead Hard providing great value for a tunnel-target.
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The thing with all you listed is that you can still play a game (maybe except strong Nurse, but I don't see her frequently). As for tunneling it's like "press X for win" for killer and GG.
I love the constant point to "git gud" for survivors, but never for killer. I have 1700h of playtime, and matched with people with around the same hours, many P100, but when tunneling/camping happen, it's 99% GG. Completely no reason to play when 3 survivors left on 3-4 gens.
So, maybe to play survivor it require 5K hours? Or 10? Is it really designed that way so only tournament players could play that role? I have zero intention to become Ayrin-class survivor, I just want to play few good matches after work (no matter if I win or lose).
Every survivor player have to be top-dog? I just want clarification, why game constantly balanced around bad killers vs strong survivors.
Thing with this "tools" is that they strip the game of any fun or desire to play. So, removing this "tools" would be healthy for experience of the game, not because it's "unfair" or "unavoidable".
Plus if devs remove this trash-tools, they can start balancing game around that.
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Ahh, I also tell killers to 'git gud' if they complain that they can't counter Flashlights, Sabo, SWF, MFT... or whatever popular strong tools or tactics they complain about. It's just the survivor's turn considering the topic of the thread.
I also feel with those who find no fun in a game, so they urge the devs to change it how they'd prefer it. I just also state my opinion - in this case is that I have great fun learning to play around tools and tactics that make me lose - that's the joyful part of playing a complex game!
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Consider using second-chance perks in your build rather than full chase.
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I'm glad for you, but you missing my point. I'll make it shorter:
I'm with 1700h LITERALLY don't know what to do with tunneling and camping. What to say about people with 1000h? Or less than 500 (which I almost certain is the majority)? Ok, I'm bad, I can accept that, but what about hundreds of people I'm matched with?
So many complaints about tunneling is that player, that uses this scummy tactic, is remove gameplay. Why waste time then?
Learning is good. Someone kill Malenia with barehands in Elden Ring, someone beat Doom on hardcore with 0 damage, someone do 180 flickshots in FPS games. But it is never a mandatory thing to just play the game.
Basically, that was my message.
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I dont talk about me, why do you suggest I should lower my MMR? This would suggest I should play bad on purpose or I should use several afk-games or whatever to keep losing. Is this the game-experience the other side, here the survivors, want?
I dont know what MMR I have and I dont care either, because it doesnt matter. Low MMR, High MMR, Rank, Grade, Prestige etc.
In the end you always receive the same Bloodpoints. Its always 3.000 for finishing a gen, 100 for breaking a breakable wall etc.
There is no reward for being High or Low or whatever.
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I'm drawn to these threads, as you (not you personally, but people who complain about tunneling in general) have some valid points. Often concealed by subjective stuff like 'scummy', 'unskilled', 'uncounterable', but the subjectivity of the presentation doesn't invalidate the core statement.
It's very valid to examine how strong tunneling as a tactic is, and how efficient are it's counters, how difficult they are to perform, and what's the cost for using them. On that part I gladly argue - I have some insights. But I still feel with you. Tunneling is strong, difficult to counter, and also difficult for the killer to reach a comparable efficiency without relying on it.
I wonder if they'll ever come up with a solution to heavily discourage / eliminate tunneling, while still keeping dbd an exciting, popular and at least this well-balanced game. I'll have much fun adapting to that when it happens. In the meantime, I accept that horror is a genre where desperation and quick death are theme-appropriate.
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IMO DS should be basekit, active for 30s after being unhooked, and have 5s stun, and 1 token. Succesfull use of DS should use token.
DS perk should give second token on first tier, and increase duration of active period to 45 and 60 seconds on second and third.
Non tunneling killers should see no difference, and remember that actions like healing or gen repairing, deacrivates the skill
Post edited by Archael on1 -
When you mean "years/months ago." you mean back in the days where DS was meta, which is no longer the case.
Otherwise, I, somewhat, solve that problem by having Distortion 100% of the time (Kindred, We'll make it, Distortion, BL is my main build). Yes there some draw backs to that perk like getting my team killed but it also tells me if the killer is a tunneler. Which also force me to go over there and take the hit for that person.
But that just me. Otherwise, yea, getting tunneled is not fun but I try my best to loop the killer for x amount of gens when found.
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I mean Nightlight is the Mos Eisley of sweatlords. Even then, how can you trust self-reports? All too many times there is the "about to go fight, I'll post the vid afterward -- got smashed, I ain't postin' that" mentality.
There is nothing in the current Survivor meta that makes it more necessary. There is plenty of reasons why it is pathetically easy. Anti-tunnel Endurance doesn't stack, DS may as well not exist, Killers have so much mobility they can pick their targets easier, and so on. Tunneling exists in excess right now, because anti-tunneling is absent.
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If you had compared the stats on nightlight in september 2022 with the official stats BHVR shared with us, they were quite similar. But yes, they are no guarantee.
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Only if we address how fast Gens can pop if people tunnel them. I have had way too many times where I'm forced to tunnel because 3 gens pop in less than 2 minutes during my first chase.
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This change would be fair and healthier.
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You also see more clowns, skull merchants, and singularities today than compared to a while back.
Keep in mind that there are tome challenges, and that they're identical for everyone. The summer event tome meant a lot more clowns. The recent tomes means more skull merchants and singularities.
I just finished a tome challenge, Obsessive, that tasked me with tunneling the obsession out of the match 3x (though it used the phrase 'by any means' instead of the word tunnel).
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Well, you've just proven my point that tunneling is not "more necessary than ever" if you don't care about winning or losing.
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If you want to end tunneling completely; how about we nerf gens and loops at the same time, as well...
Survivors, especially decent experience Survivors whom know map layout and abused strong loop can literally hold a killer "hostage" in chase, while the other 3 Survivors can play gen rush simulator and end the game in less then 5 minutes, and have the exit gates ready for everyone to teabags the killer, as well.
Tunneling is the most effective and reliable way to win, if you are not a strong and fast mobility killer that can apply map pressure to all survivors and hold down decent gen defense; especially when you always run gen regression/slowdown perks to maximum to value in a possible 4k Win. Unsurprisingly, the game's win conditions for killer is all about them kills, and news flash, Tunneling also win you kills this way. Why waste more then 60 seconds chasing a great player, when you can literally wait 120 seconds camping and tunneling the poor "weak link" of the survivors team and ensure a 3v1 and snowball the game this way.
Trust me, I will like to see tunneling be discouraged and not be effective strategy anymore; but...I need to be realistic here, if I want to win by kills; this is the way to go. And if the Devs finally nerf tunneling for sure, survivors need a hardcore nerf for the gen speed and their looping strength or killer need a Chad Buff to be on par with the likes of nurse and every S-A teir killer out there, to actually keep up with pressuring every Survivorin the map, beside the one they are single chasing. After all, early game is always the Killer's biggest weakness agaisnt experience Survivors with their 4v1 advantage.
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Once again you talk about me. I talk in general. If people want to 3-4K every single game, tunneling is the only way. We all know that.
The problem with High-MMR is, that both sides are tunneling. One side gen-rushs, because totems, chests etc. are nothing more than "sidequests", the other side kill-rushs. There is a reason why "comp. DBD" is this every single game. If you want to play competetive, you need to do this (on both sides).
Thats all I wanted to say with my post. I myself cant say this for me, because I throw games in the lobby when I use fun-builds instead of Meta for example.
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Well, not exactly true. If you are really truly insanely good, you can win vast majority of your (public) matches even without camping or tunneling (or slugging or using your ability). It sure is hefty handicap, but it's still possible.
But the point is little bit elsewhere. Killers need to be strong enough, to get their fair share of kills so it's fun for them, while survivors should get their fair share of escapes (and in my opinion it's 50% kill rate - right in the middle for both sides). But this has several caveats:
a, this percentage should work for strong players (high MMR) and weak players (low MMR)
b, players should feel they have some agency (and for this reason 3-gen locking skull merchant (especially in lower elo) and face camping is problem)
c, most optimal tactics should be engaging fun for both sides (for this reason tunneling is problem - tunneled person until higher MMR with SWF does not get to really play the game, similarly genrush is problem for chasing killer where he does not really get opportunity to chase because gens get completed too quickly).
What's more, the problems are linked together a bit - if you remove genrush, you make camping that much easier (as the only counterplay to camping is sitting on the gen and completing them as soon as possible + trade hooks).
It's truly hard to fix all 3 points. But it does not even look like devs are really trying (very much, they do occasionally tweak something while making other problem bigger - like they removed hook grabs, but DS is still 3s and OTR does not help against hardcore tunneler) to do anything about those
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The killer lacks an incentive to find a healthy survivor.
If camping and tunneling are to your detriment, "at the same time"... "at the same time" is important
Killers can gain intelligence or advantages by finding new survivors.
This situation will improve a lot.
This game needs to be bolder in terms of mechanical changes.
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I mean, killers can't just down someone. That takes time if your good enough to loop. A genuine almost 30 seconds of guaranteed looping. That's no fun to the killer.
Of course different players. A really good killer could down someone very early, but even still.
The killer being able to knock the same guy is fair and shouldn't be punished or changed.
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The fact that you can loop a killer for 1 minute is a bad game design also.
But forcing chases to end in 15 seconds would also be a bad design.
The problem with DbD is that the overall game objectives + mechanics are terrible. The global game design is terrible. And i believe huge asymmetrical games (4vs1) are garbage by design.
Mindgame and outplaying the opposite team should be rewarding and requires teamplay, skill etc... In DbD, the only way to outplay the opposite teams are boring, unfun and stale ways to play.
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Half of the tunneling problem are survivors that are excessively hiding. When survivors are excessively hiding, and dodging tracking perks, it heavily encourages killers to chase the other survivors.
For example, if a killer has a tracking perk, and two survivors never show up on the tracking perk, then it makes sense to tunnel out the other two survivors, because they show up on the tracking perk.
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I wonder why that happened...
Let's nerf most slowdown perks, camping in general and create perks so survivors have longer chase, can take multiple hits and do gens faster, what could go wrong, right?
I miss ruin, pop era... Noed kinda helped against it too, because killers with it wasn't afraid of late game.
Well, have fun...
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Perhaps a perk that works within 5 seconds of being unhooked. You press the button and get teleported to random place in the map..right at the killer if very unlucky. Same perk also show killer the unhookers aura for 2 seconds after teleport. Then add double BPs for unhooking 🙂
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Yes because it's not like killers can just slap them as soon as theyre unhooked, negating all of their "2nd chance perks"
And we don't even have DS either cuz it's so useless now
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I understand the desire for a 50/50 kill/escape rate, but I believe they balance around 60% kill for a different reason. If a Killer camps correctly, a 0k instead becomes a 1k. It is on the Killer to fail, but essentially it means 1k is the minimum. When 1k is the minimum, that puts us at a different range of numbers. Averaging out 1k with 4k alone puts us at 62.5%. Now to be fair this could be deflated a little bit by hatch escapes back down to the rough estimate of 60%, but I'm not sure hatch counts for the escape rates since MMR counts it as a tie. So we'll assume hatch closed and the Survivor gets the gate is what rounds the 62.5% down to 60%.
This is why personally I'd recommend matchmaking be hook (action) based instead of kill based. Although I would have camped states/left on hook states/tunneled states all count at .51 of a hook action. If we make 2 hook actions the tie count, then 1st hook kills would still count as a win, but you would earn less MMR as a result.
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I agree.
The amount of tunneling generators is out of control, so Killers tunnel kills. Both needs to get adressed.
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NOED was nerfed and just has less value.
Hope + MFT is meta. Alternative is Adrenaline, which is really not better for the killer.
Killers simply don't want to get into late game and for good reason.
It's harder to prevent it with gen refression perk nerfs.
Not really suprising outcome to see more tunneling....
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So fix camping. This is no reason to leave 1 side with more kills for no good reason at all.
Also - I don't agree. If we exclude a few killers that have easy camping time (infi T3 meyers, pinky clown, ...) it's not free 1K
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While I don't disagree with the notion of fixing camping, they are balancing around 60% killrate with the current state of the game in mind. If they allowed Survivors to rescue a Survivor from any hook or any other anti-camping basekit mechanic, then I'd agree with adjusting the expected kill rates.
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Save the best for last really enables it atm, as does killers with infection mechanics/traps that can be placed near hooks. The game is designed around tunneling atm so much that it enables it, even the xeno allows for straight back to the hook.
STBFL is where to start IMO
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Why do they refuse to tune those killers? It makes it seem like they want them to be grossly overpowered? Maybe to point them out as proof the game isn't pay to win? Idk. It's kind of wild that they have such oppressive killers that make soloq really bad experience. Atleast those killers are fun to play as though, but against in soloq its a nightmare usually.
Add onto the excessive camp/tunnel meta, and it can be a very unpleasant experience sometimes. I almost completely stopped playing killer as a "Killer Main" because it feels too damn easy tbh.
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wdym only manageable in SWFs? It's an interaction between 1 survivor and the killer, just learn chases as a survivor lol.
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