How would you change MFT?
I think we can all agree that this perk is overtuned. At the very least, the endurance should not be lumped in with an already powerful effect. If and how would you change made for this to be a more balanced and/or healthy perk?
I think I would give the haste while healthy instead of injured so you need to heal for value+punishes you for a bad play rather than rewarding you+remove haste stacking+remove endurance effect entirely. Or I would make the haste ramp up from 0-3 over 30s.
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Healthy MFT is even more insulting than injured MFT.
I work rework it by removing the haste entirely and cutting endurance to 8s.
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fair enough, I figured if it worked while healthy instead it would be closer to a dramaturgy situation in design. though i guess now that i think about it that might be a massive nerf to hit and run since getting the first hit would become much more difficult, and if hit and run becomes non viable then tunneling will be the only actual strat left.
is your rework idea in the context of also reworking buckle up? if not, how would this new mft just be a worse version of buckle up?
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- Remove self haste entirely and give it to No Mither.
- Apply haste on the teammate you finished healing for a few seconds.
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Remove the haste entirely. Make the endurance effect last more
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- Activates after being unhooked
- 7% Haste until healed or you perform a conspicuous action
- Maybe give it a timer, like Off The Record
- Remove the Endurance aspect altogether
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Like this
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I hate the perk both in concept and in practise, but if I put aside my own bias and keep the 3% haste: -
- Overall game mechanic change where Haste effects do not stack, only the strongest effect is used at any one time.
- Give MFT a new animation when active, where the survivor remains stooped, but hand that normally clutches the Survivors chest instead make an action similar to Gabriel in the perk icon.
- Endurance effect reduced to 3/4/5s.
This : -
- Removes the broken haste stack effects.
- Allows killers to decide if they want to chase or not if their killer isn't strong in chase and/or on a horrible map to deal with MFT.
- Makes the endurance on slug saves a much small buffer when going for anti-slug picks up, that the Killer can easily wait out if you don't get to a window or pallet fast. This reduces protection hit effectiveness to a genuine question of are you gonna protect? Or are you gonna run?
I'd also consider buffing Boon: Dark Theory to 3%, because if MFT can have it so easily, why doesn't the perk that has to work harder for and can lose it easier not have it too?
Edit: just realised the anti stack effect wouldn't work, because you have interactions like PWYF, Rapid Brutality, Bloodlust, the Clown Anitidote bottle for both sides, MFT, Hope, any of the Exhaustion perks, Skull Merchant tracking haste, and the Singularity Slipstream, Wraith, etc, etc.
This change cause more problems than it solves...
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1% speed bonus
Activates after you are unhooked for the 2nd time
lasts for 15 seconds
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To mitigate the problem scenarios with MFT, I would propose the following:
- Either remove Haste stacking for survivors in general, or add a stipulation that Made For This specifically cannot stack with other sources of Haste. Either way, you shouldn't be able to chain it with Hope, or even the less blatantly overpowered but still unbalanced combinations.
- Remove the Endurance entirely. People are overstating things to say that the Endurance part is worth a perk slot on its own, but it should be paired with a much, much weaker effect than Haste.
- Buff anti-Exhaustion tools. This isn't just for Made For This, I think it's a good idea in general; part of the reason Exhaustion perks are so obvious, no-brainer picks in every single build that has space for them is because the tools for dealing with them tend to be pretty lacklustre. They shouldn't be overbearing, of course, but they should definitely be more consistent than they are.
That's all it needs. The conditional and ostensibly counterable Haste effect is not inherently unbalanced, it can be implemented in a way that works, so all you need to do is trim down its problem areas.
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Buckle Up only works on picking up slugs. MFT works on healing. Also, MFT shouldn't work on picking up slugs.
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I would just leave it as is but make the perk start at 1%.
Each time you are unhooked, MFT increases by 1%. Up to 3%
I’m just throwing ideas out there
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make the activation condition for the haste be getting hit during the endurance from the perk, and remaining for the duration of the deepwound (this makes the haste tied to the endurance part of the perk, rather than having 2 perks in the same slot)
so its a gimmick perk instead of ridiculously op, and you know when it happens as killer bc you watch the pickup, watch the endurance state, and can choose to ignore sonic the survivor and theyll have to mend out of their haste if they want to do more than run in circles begging for attention
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that is like the worst perk in the game lmao
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I didnt know mft worked on healing. in that case i guess it does have its own role to fill and its own identity.
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Disabled during Endgame.
That'd be my main change if they want to keep it a strong perk but get rid of one of the most broken aspects of it
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Remove the Endurance
MFT now activates twice per game for 25 seconds when injured
Must be fully healed before it can activate again
Does not activate if downed from healthy
Causes exhaustion for 40 seconds when activated
There, fair and good perk that is still useful without breaking the game
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Lot of your idea are just worst perk than some already existing
Dunno but, if you want so much that perks can't stack, all perks have to be rework, not only haste and for survivor
All gen speed of regression have to lost the stackable effect
All speed perks from survivor or killer have to lost the stackable effect
It's that what you want? Or it's only, again, only one side ?
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People only pitch Haste not stacking because Made For This combined with Hope is absurdly overpowered, and because stacking it with most other consistent/longer term Haste effects is also too strong, to a lesser degree.
Do you have a way of fixing that without disabling Haste stacking? Because I agree with you, it would be a tiny bit unfair to only disable Haste stacking specifically and only for the survivor side... but it's kinda hard to avoid the fact that only the survivor side currently has a huge problem with it.
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Disabling MFT in endgame fixes this issue
All other survivor haste perks are either exhaustion or suck so hard their haste stacking is irrelevant once mft hope is no longer a thing
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Remove the Endurance effect and make it so that it won't stack with Hope.
Other than that, it's fine.
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I'm confused, how is wanting the abillity to move faster than the killer gone somehow favoring killer by default? Or not even faster, just 5% more permanently etc etc?
Not seeing how my ideas are worse versions of anything. Permahaste is already hard to come by, making it unique by default with these few conditions comparatively. And all my suggestions keep mft's identity. To argue my suggestions are just worse versions of other perks is to say that mft is already just a worse version of other perks. My suggestions to mft directly were to make it activate while healthy and not have endurance, or ramp up from 0-3% over time while injured with no endurance. The first one is just mft but punishes bad play and is one perk instead of 2 in one. And the second is just MFT but you need to actually be a good looper to get real value from it, unlike now where thats better but optional.
Side note: What stacking regression effects? Are you talking about overbrine? in year 7? overbrine is useless and the only example of this, theres no need to remove it because its terrible and would be a waste of resources. But if it were year 6 I would absolutely say to remove overbrine stacking. the perks were balanced on their own and only became an issue when used in tandem, therefore they should not synergize.
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Agree about staking. I don't understand why peoples want it. Imo perks should be designed with staking keeping in mind. Staking helps create some cool builds and it's actually fun.
And what about mft+hope combo: good looper with 7% already almost untouchable, mft barely helps here. In that case i think Hope should be 5%.
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The thing is
I love to play F1 Hag, it's so funny to see survivor just, losing their mind to see a ######### hag rocket running in their directions, so I can understand why survivor play MFT wih hope, but again, they need to get in the endgame for earning it
Soma got three powerfull perks, and, MFT make no sense to have the endurance effect
the second point, I see lot of people saying "it reward bad play" again... Lot of killer perks reward bad play, noed is the most know, but, Hux come with another one, Machine learning, but, it's not the main point
The other thing that I don't understand, is when you compare MFT with Dark Theory
How a perk can give a permanant 3% haste effect when you are injuried, when in the other hand, you got only a 2%, in an delimited area, and only if the boon is up
Sometimes, I wonder if the healing nerfs never happen, if this perks would have been so popular, knowing that a lot of perks from killer punish survivor for healing
... I think, simply, if you want to nerf MFT, you have to delete the endurance effect, and using the old logic of hope; the perks is only active for some times before deactivating and you got exhausted
It gonna be more logic, plus, lot of people gonna be less angry
Calm down, it's not your idea that I pointed out, like the first one say about your idea, giving the haste effect when people are not injuried gonna be more harder to get a hit
It's more like people who want to remove the haste effect and nerfing the endurance effect to less than 10 secondes or get a haste effect during some second after unhooking WHO gonna make MFT a worse perks than some existing
If you want that I quote them, here you go:
Buckle up, SoulGard, Borrowed Times, Bloodpact, Gardian and Power of two
And I was just saying about gen regression perks, you can stack them and make them more powerfull, in the same way that gen speed perks, when you combine them, it can make a gen in... 20/30 secondes when you are alone
If now, we decide that survivor can't have perks who can stack, I don't see why killer can, even if it's asymetrical... a moment, you have to calm down
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Right, but once they are in the endgame, what they have earned is an overpowered effect. It is too much strength for what they did to earn it, and also no matter what they did to earn it. No amount of effort or skill would justify the speed you get, permanently, from Made For This and Hope in the endgame. It's basically a free escape unless you massively mess up, or the killer happens to have some way of inflicting you with Exhausted.
MFT + Hope is too powerful, even as an endgame combo. It does need to be addressed, which is why people want Haste stacking removed. You do still have to fix MFT + Hope even without doing that, and probably MFT + other Haste perks too.
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Haste (and for that matter anti-haste) shouldn't even be in the game unless it's for a VERY limited time (ie lithe is okay). It just breaks too many fundamental balances of the game. I'd fix it by completely reworking the perk entirely and remove the haste.
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I dunno.
The value it provides at pre-emptive shift w, loops, pallet breaks, and vaults are all pretty insane.
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You know what? Why not
"Made for this" "You were born to survive, and raised to adapt." "I didn't come here to be robot food!" — Gabriel Soma
Technically, what it say is the survivor who have this perks make everything for survive, for escaping... So, why not adding a condition
Condition where, the perks only recharge when you work on a gen, because you participate at the escaping with the other (or yourself) or when you help your friend, your teammates like lucky break?
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The difference between haste stacking and regression stacking is that, at least in this meta, regression is earned through skilled plays. pain res and pgtw both need hooks and are the strongest regression perks in the game. Hell even eruption needs a down, not that the reward is proportionate. If you actually needed to earn haste stacking by being skilled it would be a different story. The only combo that has any semblance of skill involved is mft hope, where the survivor does need to earn hope. However just by also equipping mft you are unkillable in endgame. You dont need to earn mft, its active throughout the match too. Its a disproportionate reward compared to the effort and skill required.
Thats just mft hope, all the other haste stacks are braindead. all you need to do it consistently is a buddy with ftp, and for absolutely 0 skill you can permanently move at 112%. Off two perks for 1 heal. And for bonus points if you were injured when you healed your buddy then you just cant be caught. Not to mention for the low low price of 14 seconds of your time you can add an extra 2% into the mix. Its garbage on its own but it allows you to move faster than the killer permanently within range, not that you were getting downed to begin with. Then if one of you has hope you get to move an entire 9% faster than the killer.
Comparing stacking slowdown to stacking haste is a false equivalency. for those 20/30 seconds, i need a hook meaning I had to outplay the survivor and be skilled. Theres a hard limit to how much a pgtw or a pain res can be used too, and they can be avoided by being better than the killer. MFT and haste stacking overall are not skilled or earned, have no counterplay, and its just blatantly not fair to permanently move faster than the killer. Im not gonna argue dark theory is broken, but being able to stack it with mft for a permanent 5% boost isnt fair in any way
I can think of 4 haste perks for killer, machine learning, pwyf, devour hope, and noed. Machine learning has a powerful effect but you need to be losing the game for it to help you, and its not strong enough to clutch. PWYF requires you to build tokens off of a survivor, and you lose them when you swing regardless of if you hit. Devour hope barely even counts and requires a hook. Noed is the only killer haste perk thats strong, and its 4%, a hex, and only works in endgame. MFT is 3% and works all game, for free. Thats not to say noed is bad or shouldnt be a hex or should have its speed buffed or anything like that, its just for comparison. Every single killer speed perk has some activation requirement thats tedious to get or can be completely removed before it does anything. Should they be able to stack? if I'm being fair then no they shouldn't no haste should stack, not that its an issue atm but I digress.
PWYF needs you to find the obsession, leave chase with them, and then you lose the token on a swing for 5%. In practice you will have 1-2 tokens every few chases and lose them getting the down. Its effectively limited because thats how it needs to be to be balanced. A survivor can equip two perks and permanently move 5% faster in a decently large area. They dont need to run around and find the killer and leave chase for a token and then lose it when they get hit, they just have it. A permanent 33% chase extender in an area. That is all it takes.
Removing haste stacking would let bhvr be more free in their perk design as well. Exhaustion timers used to stack, but now they take the largest number. and because of that bhvr can make more exhaustion counters, not that they're any good. The same applies. Theres a reason power of two has a 140 second cooldown +2 more limitations. because if it didnt, then the game would break. that'd still be true if haste stacking were gone and it had no cooldown, but at least then they could adjust it more freely to be a strong perk that isnt bottlenecked by haste stacking. haste stacking was never balanced, mft just brought it to the forefront. at least before you needed to hang around a survivor the whole game so if either of you were chased then it was 2 off gens.
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There are a couple ways you can go about it. The question is, should the speed boost be permanent or should it be temporary?
If you want the speed boost to be permanent, i would do the following:
- Remove the endurance effect
- MFT increases your movement speed while injured by 1.5% for each time you have been hooked
- When it is active, you are shown to have a "woosh" effect around you, so the killer knows you have MFT.
- Deactivates in endgame (to prevent hope stacking)
This would make it so it doesn't take effect on the first hook, similar to old deadhard, and extending that first chase far more than it should, if this makes the perk too weak (per data) i'd consider removing the "while injured" requirement.
If you want the speed boost to be temporary, i would do the following:
- Remove the endurance effect
- Remove the exhaustion aspect of the perk
- When injured MFT activates for 60 seconds
- During its time period, you are shown to have a "woosh" effect around you, so the killer knows you have MFT.
- When you are healed, MFT deactivates and keeps its duration
- Being in the terror radius and not chased each second gains 1 second of MFT duration, to a maximum of 60 seconds
- Basically make it work like lucky break.
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Since you brought up noed, what skilled play has the killer to do to get that effect, since you demand strong effects should be earned?
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Two thing
First one, If you read what I say before, I compare haste perk from survivor and killer, and gen speed perk with gen regression perk
I don't compare haste effect with gen regression, I was just saying IF we delete the stackable effect from perks for survivor, we need to do it for killer, it's pretty simple no?
Second, so, if I understand your logic, helping other teammate is not skilled? Like healing, doing gen or trying to survive, is not skilled? And even if it was not what you wanted to say
You take example from scourge hook and Pop, but, Ruin, deadlock, call of brine, overcharge... All these are also gen regression, and in the same way than pop and scourge, in term of popularity and powerness, and for some, you just need to kick, the other, just being a scarecrow or loosing a gen, all regression perks doesn't reward "skill" from the killer and to say that they are not powerful would be to play the ostrich
I take machine learning as example because it's the same "excuse" about MFT : "it reward bad play"
technically, machine learning reward bad play, you loose a gen
And for Food, technically, you have two possibility to regen quicky your token or not losing it, infinte tombstone myers doens't lose tokens, and if you play with game afoot or Nemesis, you have a way to regain quickly new token for play with your food, and probably more technic or combo perks (I think with furtive chase, never try, but I may be wrong here)
And, not all killer can be powerfull with stackable haste, but it exist, it's not well know, actually, but, for my first example, Hag, with her recent buff, who can run at 4.73 m/s with the waterlog shoes, and you take some haste perks like play with your food, game afoot or wathever, and she are just one of the fastest killer in the game, or, IF PEOPLE TRY TO LEARN HER... Skull merchant,she got lot of add-on who boost her speed, great for chase, where she can run at 4.7 m/s and it last 15 secondes after leaving the drone, and it goe's with my second point, her, and a lot of other killer, have add-on who make hindered for some times, the artist, skull merchant, Nemesis, Wesker got one basekit, blight, hag, etc etc
But for the example of skull, she can run at 4.7 m/s when survivor run at 3.8 m/s
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Remove the endurance, add perma exhaustion, now works while exhausted.
3% bonus speed while injured, can't be used with other exhaustion perks because you are always exhausted. It would also act as a counter to Feamonger's exhaustion.
If you wanna add some kind of prevention for stacking haste that would be lame but most balancing decisions are, I would be fine with it. I just don't think it is super necessary.
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- Remove the Endurance effect completely. It has no reason to be attached to this perk given how powerful the 3% Haste already is.
- Cause Exhaustion for 30 seconds after being chased for 30 seconds. If the chase ends before the Exhaustion kicks in, the 30 second timer will slowly tick down. So if the killer loses the survivor but finds them again quickly it won't take as long for them to become Exhausted.
- While a survivor is affected by Haste their running animation will change. With their head stooped low and their hands clenched into a fist. So the killer is made aware that the survivor is running faster than normal.
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Surv starts the game in an injured state and can't be healed.
6% haste + endurance on self-unhook.
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I would do something like:
Remove Endurance effect.
After you take a hit (going from healthy to injured) -> If you are not exausted, you gain 3% haste for 40s. Makes you exausted for 60/50/40s.
Make this perk a exaustion perk.
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I don’t think it should have two effects as it’s already a strong perk with one or the other.
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Honestly better than the unconditional 3% speed boost.
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lol
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And killer mains would still complain
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Suggestion based off of what I perceive the perk originally intended to do which is be a jack of all trades to save slugged survivors.
- While within 16m of a survivor in the Dying State gain 7% Haste for 30 seconds. Haste effect lost when moving farther than 20m from the survivor in the Dying State.
- Haste effect is lost after there are no survivors in proximity in the Dying State or after the timer expires. Perk goes on cooldown for 20 seconds.
- Healing a survivor from the Dying State grants the survivor being picked up Endurance for 10 seconds.
- Injury requirement removed
Now it's more of an altruistic perk more focused on anti slugging but it's very neutered and just an alternative to Background Player. Personally I wouldn't really change the perk but if you really wanted to stop it from being abused that's the only rework I can visualize that keeps its intended (assumed) purpose. I don't feel like the perk is fine in its current state but admittedly I wouldn't change it. Intention is to increase the potential use to save someone but reduce its consistency with running the killer all game with it passively.
Honestly though I feel like if it's problematic to the point where people don't want it passively increasing MS in chase the perk should be redesigned entirely. As in no Haste or Endurance - Just a new perk entirely. Although I don't believe this thread is specifically going for that approach so there's my suggestion.
Post edited by Dustin on1 -
Yeah, better to destroy a perks like that, nobody use it because the other have better effect
Right..
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Remove the haste effect.
I'm fine with it being an anti slugging perk that is used for altruistic actions to help out the team. The haste effect hurts weaker killers exponentially more than it does strong killers.
You could give it another fun effect like cleansing totems faster or opening chests faster to give it synergy with other healing perks like inner healing and pharmacy.
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Remove stacking. MFT + Hope shouldn't be a thing. I don't really have an opinion on the endurance aspect except to say it probably didn't need it, I feel like the 3% haste is a good enough perk.
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Haste -> vaulting speed
Remove endurance effect entirely
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You can delete this Perk with this effect. There would not really be any reason to run it. The end goal should be to have a Perk which is useable, not one of the few dozen Perks which are not even slighly worth to pick.
@Topic:
- Remove Endurance
- Remove Stacking with other Haste-effects (only the biggest Haste-Buff is applied, e.g. in Endgame with MFT and Hope, only Hope is applied and MFT deactivated)
- Small indicator for the Killer that the Survivor they hit has MFT
Optional:
- Makes perma-exhausted (even when healthy) but is not deactivated while exhausted. This would make the Perk not useable with other Exhaustion-Perks.
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buff haste and make it activate when you get endurance for healing.
and add an extra activation condition similar to WGLF
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survivors when eruption: "the idea of preventing people working on gens for a little while is fine, just maybe bump the numbers down somewhat and let us do non repair stuff, it's quite overtuned right now"
killers when made for this: "make it make survivors weaker. make it kill the survivor instantly"
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The killer doesnt earn noed, but thats mitigated by the survivors being able to remove it. Its an unhealthy and dumb perk but at least in most situations a smart team will only let you get 1-2 downs before they cleanse. MFT is 1% less than noed, is active all game, and cant be removed. Im not saying that to compare their strength im just saying thats stupid. Such a powerful effect should not be free and infinite with near 0 limits. Thats why every other permahaste perk has strict limits on it. Dark theory is 2%, yet you need to set up a boon, be chased in that boon aka take killer to the boon for value, hope its in a spot with a good gym and not just limited pallets, then go boon it again giving massive slowdown when the killer inevitable snuffs it. Its a potentially balanced version of MFT, high reward for high investment (with buffs, maybe a 4-5%). Right now MFT is like survivor noed. Its unearned, does way to much for being unearned, rewards and promotes bad play via hold W, has no warning or counterplay, and is overall dumb. Noed is equally stupid but at least its only active in endgame and can get removed, mft just gives you longer chases all game by virtue of equipping it.
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- You might not have directly compared them but saying that if one should be removed so should the other is by nature a comparison. It's only simple logic at a surface level. just because one type of stacking effects should be removed doent mean they all should. They do different things and should be evaluated separately. I would argue haste stacking and overbrine stacking should go, that way other haste perks can be buffed while we can make CoB and overcharge usuable again without breaking the game.
- Yeah that is what im saying. It doesnt take skill to heal a teammate or do a gen. Theres skill involved knowing when its a good idea or not, but that doesnt change that a baby survivor on their first game can heal a teammate or sit on a gen. I wasnt saying teamwork is unskilled I was saying that healing, which is the only activation requirement for 12% haste, is unskilled. Anybody witht hat perk setup and a friend on call can follow the simple instructions and have a 3% speed disadvantage permanently. Not that it matters if you have mft or dark theory too. Theres very little to no skill involved in gaining that speed.
- Ruin, CoB, and OC are nowhere near power and popularity to pain res and pgtw. I would actually argue that ruin, CoB, and OC do actually reward skill on killer, especially ruin. Deadlock is really the only meta killer perk you can call completely unearned. Ruin rewards the killer for playing well and needs skill for value. A hook gets someone off a gen, it regresses. Hitting someone forces them to heal and be off a gen. Getting good value requires skillfully pressuring the map. Even then it was a hex, so you needed to dedicate undying to consistency. meaning that in the ruin meta you dedicated half your perk slots to one perk, which forces you to play well. CoB and OC have the same principle. CoB was just ruin but manual and not a hex. Kicking the gen might be braindead but keeping it regressing was skilled. Like ruin, you needed to pressure that area effectively for value. And it needed to be that area since no other gen had CoB, so if you didnt have major pressure you would need to spend extra time keeping them off that gen. Same goes for OC, moreso since it needs to ramp up. The broken unskilled part was the stacking that completely mitigated any skill required. It didnt matter if you left the gen because it would regress at 300% so you win by default. On their own however, they do need skill for good value. Activation is unearned, but value is. Deadlock is the only meta killer perk someone could realistically call unskilled, since somebody afk would get deadlock value.
- They both reward ad play but at least machine learning requires setup. If it just gave you 10% haste for 30s whenever any gen popped it'd be a clearly equivalency, but you do actually need to kick the gen. But its counte intuitive since for value you need to be losing the game. it'd be like if MFT gave you 3% speed for every dead teammate. its not gonna do anything... your teammates are dead. at best you get hatch. You might maybe get one or two downs off machine learning if you are lucky. Any more than that and odds are you are losing the game anyway. MFT isnt like that, being injured isnt a clear sign you will lose its a natural part of chase and gameplay. It gives that kind of power without the conditions.
- Building three tokens takes 30s at minimum, tombstone is a separate issue unrelated to PWYF, its just unfortunate that they have synergy. Im not seeing how nemmy has synergy with pwyf any more than other killers. Using game afoot with PWYF is a borderline meme build with 0 meta all for one perk. Compare these specific scenarios and conditions required to MFT activating unconditionally throughout a match.
- Waterlogged shoe's 2.5% guts your power and is somehow still less speed than MFT for such a high cost. Skull merchants haste is 2% for one drone being hacked and has a very limited time frame and is out of your control whether it happens in chase or not. Even if haste stacking exists on killer its still far less powerful than it is on survivor. To get that 17% speed boost frome the haste stacking build that just requires a friend with ftp for consistency, the killer needs max pwyf stacks+noed,or 2 pwf stacks+machine learning, or a waterlogged shoe with max pwyf stacks. pwyf is the best killer haste perk (not that its a high bar) , and you need to farm it yourself over a minimum of 30s and lose tokens for swinging. You will lose 2 stacks per chase win typically, so you'll need to go and farm those gain, meaning to you need to go find the obsession and farm or just keep playing without tokens until you run into them. All killer haste is heavily limited or has crazy drawbacks, and almost no killer haste is permanent. All that effort will still land you less haste than the permahaste build on survivor. That said, killer haste stacking is a problem because it makes it very hard to introduce more haste perks. That goes for both sides, it just happens that haste stacking is an actual balance issue now thanks to mft. should go for everyone.
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Thank god some ppl on here dont make perks
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