Is escape through hatch fair?
Survivors can use the perk “left behind”, keys, and their much larger view to help them find and escape the hatch fairly easy. Killers seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to hatch escapes because of their smaller POV, and no perk to help them find it, or keep it closed when they do. Is there room to level that playing field?
Answers
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You just had to be there...
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It's honestly the other way around. Killers have the advantage there (rightfully so) because they can traverse the map faster. It's also not JUST about finding the hatch. Any tracking perk that helps you find the SURVIVOR is a huge help. Survivors having to avoid the killer tends to slow down their search speed.
As far as keys and the perk left behind... They're very rarely seen. Most ppl would rather bring stuff that works abit more often than in cases where your entire team is dead except you. A key in lobby is practically announcing to your team that yes... you WILL watch them die on hook so you can go ahead and look for hatch.
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It's fine.
Helps the game end within a reasonable time frame, much like EGC.
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Hatch isn't really a fair mechanic, but it's also one that has to exist otherwise you just get situations where both sides are just waiting for the other to give up.
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Old hatch was rough... I was browsing some old screenshots yesterday and stumbled across an endgame chat where 3 ppl got out via hatch at 1 gen left and complained that I was camping gens.
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Pre-Mikaela Hatch was perfectly fine. It was a basekit mechanic to counter intentionally tunneling out early. Also you still needed to complete gens, as hatch would only spawn once the number of deaths was more or equal to gens remaining. Hatch also only counts as a tie, so a 3 hatch 1k counts as a Killer win. It also makes Keys not a useless item (without very specific add-ons currently).
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it doesn't count as a win mmr-wise, so i'd say it's whatever. It do be sucky if someone plays just to let everyone die tho
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Hard times. 😭
It's a miracle now if I ever see someone escape with a key that I'm actually impressed they pulled it off. It's very rare now.
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If a survivor dedicates that much effort into hatch, they should have an advantage. When you dedicate a slot to it, it should stack the odds a little. Also, when survivors plan for hatch, that means they're expecting a 3k, which is a good sign for killer.
Killers that teleport can usually find the hatch by listening. I don't put much effort into it, though, I don't see much of a difference between a 3 and 4k. Either are clearly a killer win.
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god that was so annoying... suddenly the match just ended
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I'd say hatch is relatively surv sided unless you are on blight. the 15% speed advantage doesnt really matter unless the hatch is equidistant from both of you. And since the survivor insta escapes on finding it and you just trigger egc, you are still susceptible to terrible rng on gates while they would just escape. And even if you find them, they can still easily get hatch while in chase while you would need to leave chase and go back to patrolling. Most killers have no mobility and thus cant patrol gates efficiently, relying solely on map rng to give them decent spawns. Essentially, hatch is decided by luck, whatever map you are on, and if you are blight or wesker. Which for the most part are things out of your control. part of me wishes when I closed hatch, the survivor would just die since they just escape automatically anyway.
but on the flip side bringing nwo on blight is straight up a free 4k if you already killed three. in all fairness its RNG based for the survivor too, so nobody gets to skillfully get the last laugh for the most part.
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It's not super fair but needed.
That said it's so, so much better than the old world 4 man swf key + hatch groups though. Nothing quite as frustrating as comms + dropping a key so there's no counter and 1 kill = 3 man escape with 1 gen left
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Yes it does. Any escape boosts your mmr.
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My build last months is Overcome, Left Behind, Sole Survivor and Wake Up. Sure killers are faster and all that but get a slap with Overcome and Left Behind does the rest many times lol. And if killer finds hatch I open exit gates very fast because Sole and WU! Adding a key to that build would just be evil 😀 Only problem is being injured when the hatch search begin.
Fair I mean not much is fair in this game. Bad survivor escapes because teammates did the job, or amazing survivor dies just because teammates was bad.
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Well lets flip the question on its head and ask is it fair for the last survivor to basically be a guaranteed kill without the hatch?
Hatch (in its current form), much like endgame collapse, stops that 1 hour search for the last hiding survivor in an endless standoff.
You still have the major advantage as killer if it comes to hatch plays. So it serves a purpose and isn't unbalanced in any real direction.
So yeah hatch escapes are as fair as they come.
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This isn't true. The devs stated hatch escapes don't affect mmr. The survivor didn't actually win the match. It's more of a consolation prize.
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Current hatch is way, way more fair than old hatch. Old hatch was so unfair that people used to dodge keys.
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You're two years too late for making an account complaining about keys and hatches.
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The Leatherface masks were a running joke for me. It was basically the John Cena joke where I'd claim the Smart Face mask basically turns him invisible.
Matches like this one though were frustrating because you'd patrol gens trying to find someone, just to see them all escape out the hatch on the half of the map that you would have no reason to patrol. I'm like... Outplayed I guess?
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Basically a necessary evil, because NOT having it would be far worse. Back during OLD hatch, every so often I would have games where I stomped a team so hard that hatch wouldn't spawn. Finding that last survivor was a chore.
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This still hurts my soul.
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Man look at those old builds too, that really takes me back.
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Or tunnel the keyholder out of the game.
Which was on my very short list of understandable reasons to tunnel.
The old hatch/key mechanic was the worst.
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Tbh they should bring it back but only against Skull Merchant.👀
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nope, devs stated that hatch doesn't
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That was before the Bubba rework
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The hatch is not meant to be sweaty. It's a party game. If you got three kills, you won already according to how the game judges players. Plus it gives something for survivors who lose matches purely based on bad matchmaking to aim for at the end of a miserable match.
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I get its a way to prevent the match from going on forever with the last survivor (which clearly is not the case as they could just start EGC after the 2nd to last survivor is considered dead). But the way I see it and the way a decent amount of people will see it is that the hatch is just a pity gate at this point.
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Maybe the game needs a pity gate. Solo queue players would likely say so.
I kind of think the hatch is perfect as it is. Three teammates are dead. There's a chance you can find the hatch and escape. The survivor gets any opportunity to survive after the match has gone poorly, and even if they find it and escape, the game still says the killer won. It seems like a win-win. It comes at the cost of being able to consistently 4K, but maybe that's an acceptable sacrifice.
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I love the hatch mechanic. Some of the most tense and heart pounding moments I've had in this game have been hatch escapes. I've had lots of fun and unbelievably lucky last moment escapes.
It's always sad to see a killer slug the second to last survivor to deny it spawning. Killjoys.
It's always easier to hear the hatch before you see it. That's how I usually find it anyway. You don't really need a perk to find it.
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killer can find it easier because of the simple fact that they are faster and some have mobility powers. but hatch is not fair or deserved, there can be countless other solutions than that hatch bs to prevent taking hostage situations or whatever.
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Yeah. I had a GF face camp each survivor to death and then when two were dead, he slugged the other dude and just followed him till he bled out. The hatch spawned under my ass, so **** him 😎
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No its not fair, but without it survivors would just hold the game hostage hiding because they don't want to die or to be spiteful towards the killer. IIRC that's why hatch and the EGC were implemented to begin with.
Imo replace hatch with something else. Getting rewarded a free escape and robbing the killer of a kill just because the rest of your team died and you got lucky just isn't something I agree with. Especially when the main reason why it even exist is due to the side you're rewarding being unsportsmanlike and spiteful.
I don't see any system that gives the killer a chance of a free luck based kill if 3 people escape. So its also unfair in that regard as well.
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Don't know who uses "Left Behind" other than certain streamers for "omg I'm the best survivor worldwide" escape streaks where they just hide all match and let their teammates die to get hatch or gate (with Wake Up) to up the streak counter.
Keys? Last time I've seen one brought into the match must have been 2021 or so.
The killer can roam the map freely, the survivor has to avoid getting spotted.
If there's anything wrong with hatch it is that I'm punished for trying to still play and work on gens in a 2 vs 1 rather than hiding. Back with emblems, I could let the other player hide, work on a gen, have a chase with the killer after getting spotted, and build up some lightbringer and evader emblems with this to rank up and get better teammates so I wouldn't need hatch. The person hiding wouldn't.
If I keep playing now and the other guy is hiding, I have a guaranteed MMR loss and 2 vs 1s with hiding mates more often while the other player has a chance of getting out of the match with no MMR change or even MMR increase if he manages to open the gates after killer closes hatch for doing absolutely nothing.
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For the sake of argument I'm going to use this scenario with hatches. If the killer finds and kills the other 3 survivors and you are the last one alive then that is a fair match end as you can't do anything once your team is dead and the gens aren't all completed. It allows for a lifeline that stops you from being stuck in a endless patrol from the blight getting across the map in 2 seconds without the time to open the door yourself. If the hatch seems unfair in this regard then you just expect 4k for playing killer, sorry
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Oh wow, I didn't even think about that, I completely forgot bubba used to not have the sweep tokens lmao
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I think maybe you see this game differently than I do. I don't consider a killer who has won the match already as getting robbed by the hatch. The game says the killer won even if they escape. The game doesn't need to still be sweaty at that point.
I get it if you want the game to be really competitive, but I think the game has enough of that already, and the hyper-competitiveness is what ruins the game half the time.
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They waste a perk slot that could be used for a way more useful perk and they also bring one of the most situational items in the game (save maybe the add-on that let's you see the killer). It's fine.
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Search for "DBD Hatch standoff" and you will se that we have a much more healthier hatch mechanic than even before.
I think hatchs are fine.
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I didn't say it robs them of the win, it does rob them of the kill though and any BP, emblem points, or achievements/challenges that would come with it.
It's not about being competitive or not. It's about it being unfair and/or undermining the killer doing well.
It's only purpose is to give the survivor a chance to get out for essentially free, just because the killer won before they could, because otherwise they would potentially hold the game hostage by hiding forever. Then it also activates the gates for the survivor if the killer finds it first giving the survivor another 3rd chance to get out after they lost at their 2nd chance.
It's a heavily survivor biased mechanic that punishes the killer just for doing well. At least give the killer an equivalent to even it out if you won't remove/replace it. Once the 3rd survivor leaves there's nothing stopping the 4th to give the killer a 2nd or 3rd chance.
If it still gave the appropriate pay out it would at least be better. As is now I don't think there's any way to argue it doesn't rob the killer of things they would reasonably otherwise have gotten.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Mans talking about "disadvantage" when 1 survivor only can escape.
Oh, they never played when 3 survivors could escape with 1 gen left...
And why are we still talking about hatch in 2023...
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Just because you've killed 3 survivors, doesn't mean that you've automatically killed the 4th by default, so no, you haven't 'already won'.
The fact that this is a prevailing sentiment only speaks to how much of an advantage the killer has when there's a sole remaining survivor. The odds are heavily stacked against the final survivor, and so this it matched with a high risk mechanic against the killer.
Fundamentally, the final survivor has to have a significant chance of escape, that's uncoupled from the way the match has played out until that point. A 'sudden death' mechanic of sorts.
Otherwise, if the final survivor is already more or less guaranteed to die, then that means the game is already over at 2 remaining survivors, because the killer WILL find and down at least one of them with little to no chance of a recovery. When there are 3 survivors, one can serve to take the killers attention while the other assists the hooked/downed one, but that's not possible with 2.
If the game is over at 2 survivors, then survivors have no incentive to do anything other than give up once that 2nd sacrifice is made. If the last 2 survivors always give up, then every 2K becomes a de facto 4K automatically. Every 2K equalling a 4K means kill rates skyrocket, which will be met with heavy killer nerfs to ensure that killers have a roughly 50-60% chance to score TWO kills, instead of four. That means insanely tough chases, powerful survivor counters, etc.
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first off, do you really think hatch being the only incentive for survivors to play the match out is healthy, aka playing for hatch? this will involve not contributing and waiting for the other teammate to be found and die.
Just because you've killed 3 survivors, doesn't mean that you've automatically killed the 4th by default, so no, you haven't 'already won'.
noone is saying the last survivor should drop dead instantly. if they didn't lose, they always can try to do gens and escape. hatch is simply the laziest solution imaginable to the whole "taking hostage" situation that still does nothing when 2 survivors want to do it, and it only benefits selfish survivors refusing to contribute to the TEAM. there is a team. and this garbage mechanic incentivizes people to wait for their teammates to die, even right from the start of the match with specific builds. i really don't understand how this s*** is healthy and people are defending it.
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You don't need the 4th kill for a win, once you hit a 3K its considered a killer win. So yeah by the point the killer has "already won", that's not an opinion that's a fact. I also never stated that the killer should get the 4th by default just because they got 3.
I just don't think the survivors should have a last second RNG robbery for them losing without the other side also having one. As that's unfair which was the original question. Either both have one or both don't.
The odds should be stacked against the final survivor, its a 1v4 game. 1 survivor should not have anywhere near the same odds as the killer, that's how we end up with C tier killers and below.
The game in its current state is over with just 2 survivors in 9/10 cases assuming its before endgame. Hatch doesn't change that, it just undermines the killers work/win as I said earlier. You're still going to most likely get at least a 3K a.k.a. a win. If 1 survivor escapes it should be because they got down to one gen or the gates and finished while the other got chased. Not because RNG said so.
If the killer won by that large a margin they should get the 4K. If the survivors won by that large a margin they should get the 4E. However only one side is subject to basekit get out of jail free shenanigans.
Once there's 3 escapes the killer has already lost, they don't get a last chance mechanic to get at least a 1K the same way survivors get one for a 1E.
Like I said before, if you don't want to remove it for survivors just give an equivalent for killers. It's not about being against hatch, it's about being against unfairness.
Afaik hatch also doesn't count for kills or escapes and kill rate, it gets voided out.
The balance of the game doesn't change with or without hatch. The result is the same, the killer won. It doesn't make the rest of the match any easier, it doesn't make the killers any stronger, it doesn't make the survivor any weaker.
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I agree that a 3K is a win for the killer, but there's nothing objective about it. A lot of killers still strive for the 4K.
For the record, I think 4E's should be just as unlikely as 4K's. So yes, Any kind of 'equalising' mechanic for when there's an impending 4E's could also be beneficial, but I'm not sure what such a mechanic could look like.
I've always been fond of scaling gen speeds relative to objective progress for each side. i.e. kills increase gen speeds while successive gen repairs slow them. This would be a leveling mechanic that gives the killer a slight advantage when survivors rush gens, and survivors a slight advantage when killers tunnel, or little difference if the game progresses evenly. This would likely reduce the chances of a 4E by making those last few gens take a bit longer and give the killer a chance to secure at least a hook or two more than they would have otherwise.
Another option could be something like extending the 'gate blocking' properties some special attacks have, like Pinhead's chains, to basic attacks, so that if the killer downs someone at the exit they have a decent chance at picking them up. This would encourage survivors to leave earlier, by eliminating that 'safe space' right by the exit line. But I'm not sure if this could be abused by killers.
But I can't think of anything that could replace the vital function the hatch provides. That final survivor needs that significant chance of escape.
Perhaps instantly starting EGC once the 3rd survivor is killed, while giving the last survivor a semi basekit Sole Survivor, at least the aura hiding part. But I'm generally against basekit perk effects so...
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it is fair, anyone that cares that much about 4k's outside of adept, archive challenges, and organized competitive matches is a big ol' crybaby
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Killer equivalent: You could give the killers a exit entity blocker after the 3rd escape and the last survivor has to find the hatch to get out. If the killer finds it the survivor gets EGC sacrificed.
It would also increase the use cases of perks like left behind.
Scaling objectives could work. I always believed we need something to reward player who play "the fun way" and don't tunnel. Slowing down gens would check that box.
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This game is a (1v1v1v1)v1. Killer isn’t entitled to a 4K because three survivors died. And to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Also, no matter how you try to defend your point that is what you’re saying. The final survivor can either go for hatch or wait and attempt the gates, and there are perks designed specifically to help the final survivor (Low Profile, Sole Survivor, Wake Up!, etc). These perks provide enormous boosts so obviously no it isn’t over for the 4th survivor because three died.
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I don't believe I ever said the killer is entitled to a 4K but if that's your angle then the survivor also isn't entitled to a 2nd and 3rd chance to escape just because they're the last one and they lost. Otherwise as I said the killer should also get an equal mechanic then for 1E, it's not entitled to ask for fairness. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Also, no matter how you try to defend your point that is what you’re saying.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
when you start to complain about one single survivor escaping by luck in a hatch, it's because 4k is so important to you that you, for sure, sweat your way around every game making it the most unfun experience for everyone else in that match. If a single survivor escaping bothers you enough to make you create a topic like this, it's because you HAVE to win to have fun. One of the biggest problems in any online game.
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