the actual problem with the xenomorph
I've been trying so hard to figure it out but theres something really off with the new killer that he is always allowed to use m1 when in special attack mode unlike other ranged killers like huntress, in order for her to hit survivors with m1 when holding a hatchet she needs to bring down and slow a bit to use basic attack but with xeno he is so free to use both m1 and m2 and we cant really tell when or what attack he is gonna use in chase plus he also needs to be more punished for missing tail attacks too also needs a proper sound cue for when using tail attack and a little delay for survivors to react better.
So simply his zoning is more like old deathslinger now where he had no delay for his gun and we could not tell when to react this is kinda the same case now.
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Huntress is always able to use her M1s.
She can't use M1 while charging a hatchet. Xenomorph can't M1 while using his tail attack.
Being in Crawler mode isn't a real choice for Xenomorph. It's just the form he goes into after some time which gives him access to his tail attack.
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well this might be a bit long but its not about huntress already my point is that imagine a huntress her hatchet always ready to shoot but she also can m1 you without needing to bringing down the hatchet or when you play nemesis you charge your attack and when you wanna m1 someone you need to slow down a bit my idea here is basically he should not be allowed to use m1 when in crawler mode bc in a chase i am always like now he is in crawler mode he is gonna use tail attack i should try to dodge it but he just ends up m1'in zoning you and you cannot tell if he is gonna use m2 unlike pryamid head or nemesis
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Xenomorph can't hold his tail. Once he presses M2, he commits to firing it. Not to mention the range of the tail is 4.8m which is shorter than lunging unless there's a wall between you.
Plus Huntress doesn't spawn in flame turrets that destroy her hatchets forcing her to have to reload her power. Even if the turret placed doesn't knock Xenomorph out of his power, it should be buying you distance to get to the next tile as he's forced to path around it or destroy it. And Xenomorph has no way to make up distance and forcing him to back off from a chase is a win.
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agree, nothing wrong with what you are saying but i think it would be more healthy if he actually needed to hold his tail thats how we could acutally properly react it
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I disagree, because the tail doesn't fire instantly. Besides, survivors have turrets for a reason. Utilize the counter item the killer gives you to deal with his power.
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The time from pressing the "attack" button to the tail hitting someone is around 0.7 seconds. For the Nemesis tentacle it's 0.8 seconds, but if he pre-charges it while coming around a corner then it's 0.4 seconds or less. Xeno cannot do that, if the tail hits anything at all then the attack stops immediately.
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It would be harder to react and dodge if it was able to hold his tail, as the killer would be able to mindgame it and wait for you to pick a side to dodge before attacking just like you can do with Nemesis.
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This would still be better than the current version of xeno. Huntress can wait and mindgame, but this requires skill. DBD is slowly turning into a game that requires little to no skill with the killers released.
For example, Wesker is an extremely OP killer, however this is balanced as 1. you can see him charge up his attack and 2. he requires TIME and SKILL to learn how to efficiently use his power.
BHVR has recently been nerfing many perks and removing the aspects of DBD that require skill. E.g. hook grabs - killers no longer have to wait and understand if they wait they can get an easy down, and survivors no longer have to work together and fake the saves etc. This removes the ENJOYABLE aspects. Baby killers/survivors need to quit complaining and put in the hours to learn the skills required rather than making it less fun and less difficult for others. I understand it isn't fun to learn these skills at first - but for skilled survivors/killers the difficulty of chases and perks such as dead hard are fun (most times). Most recent buffs/nerfs are based on the assumption you are playing against a SWF too, making the game unplayable for lots of solo q survivors.
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actual problem is the same thing than reworked sadako, they are EASY to play relative to their strength
brand new killer and killrate through the roof... for Nurse/Blight you need some training and skill to be consistent with them at least... these new killers are braindead anyone can pick them up and go on a 50 game winstreak, this is actual problem with xenomorph, low skill //low risk// high reward
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I feel the exact same way! She feels like old deathslinger, who felt awful to go up against because survivors just could not react to the aim down sights because it was instant. With Xenomorph it's the same + pallets and windows are even more useless than against Deathslinger. It just feels straight up awful to go up against, knowing especially that she can M1 anytime during crawler mode, which she shouldn't and there should be another way fot her to get into the mode.
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Xenomorph definitely needs to be toned down. Tunneling is super easy because you can’t react to the tail attack. It’s pretty easy to master. I’m getting my butt kicked in solo.
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Can you explain how having more time to aim and be able to wait for the survivor to move before launching a fast attack that has a sound cue and animation warning require more skill than pushing the button and having to stick with it even if you screw up?
Also, I have played as and against the alien, and there is people that don't have any problem in dodging the attack and / or using the turrets correctly to remove it:
So I'm sorry, but you saying that "Baby killers/survivors need to quit complaining" is both ironic and funny.
Post edited by Batusalen on3 -
I agree wholeheartedly. All the old killers feel like they've been sitting in a box in the attic not getting touched with anything new whereas all the new killers have a million things to screw over survivors.
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If you were more skilled at playing xeno, you would know that crouching does not work against his tail attack as you can flick downwards. The audio cue is extremely short and you cannot hear it if by generators, turrets, while vaulting etc. Not to mention if you look forward for even a second and the xeno uses his tail attack you will struggle.
Addressing the baby killer comment, I went on a bit of an excessive rant as a game on the whole with the nerfs/buffs to mechanics and perks that have been in the game for a long time such as DS, DH, the previously mentioned hook grabs, vaulting speeds (weather it was the faster or slower).
Yes, sometimes this tail attack is dodgeable but it is extremely hard especially once xenos gain skills such as the following video:
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/xklORNp" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/xklORNp"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Once xeno's become somewhat skilled with even as little as 10 hours, this:
Not to mention, the audio cue is irrelevant when any other sound is occurring due to the low volume - and the visual cue lasts about half a second. This is the definition of killers complaining due to their own struggle. Survivors have been nerfed to the point extremely high PT individuals and content creators don't even want to play the game as much anymore - this needs to be rectified too as the content creators are a HUGE part of DBD's advertisement and drive to play.
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Check the last 3-5s of that clip. See that survivor successfully mindgamed killer (by not going for that pallet) when killer 100% anticipated it for easy down... And yet, xeno is so strong, that you can just adjust your aim DURING WHOLE TIME you press M2 - so there's no escape. Loose (drop pallet), or loose (continue to run away) or loose (stay on a spot with hope killer will be 100% sure you will go for that pallet). This is actually the thing everyone was talking about.
This is the only killer, that can loose strong mindgame and still win the chase. Just disgusting design
Also - what other killer would have been able to get that down in RPD Leon's office? Not even slinger could (even if he hit, it would have been deep wound) - and this interaction and loops like this are actually VERY common on all maps
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I'm going to be sincere, I don't even know what you mean with that or how is an answer / response to anything I said. Can you express yourself a little better, please?
EDIT: Alright, your message was incomplete! I still don't know what you meant with you first sentence, but anyway.
About the audio cue, that happens with any other sound in the game, including steps and grunts of injured survivors and even more in maps like the Red Forest where there is so much ambient sounds. At first I believed what people said that it was too low, but after playing attention to it it isn't, you can hear it if you listen. But if that's the complain, make the audio cue be louder, I don't care.
And about the other things you have said, again, I don't know what it has to do with anything being talked, much less how changing the attack to be hold instead of instant fired after 2 seconds would make it need more skill. Unless what you are saying is that in the end the only reason for nerfing the Xenomorph is because "Killers are OP" and you don't even want to try to get good against him, of course.
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Haha, it answers everything in your comment - but no problem.
You asked: how would charging the attack make it easier? You would be able to dodge flicks like that or have warnings of such.
You also said: there's people who have no issue dodging - and I didn't address this in my recent comment as my first got deleted for some reason. However, yes I am very aware this is possible - I myself can dodge xenomorphs which are playing casually and very new to the killer or unaware of mechanics such as the linked clip; this is not difficult. However, in the clip I linked it clearly shows a semi-experienced xenomorph is able to do such attacks with no visual warning and assuming the tail will not hit.
Also addressed in the previously mentioned deleted comment was a comment on the fact that the "baby killers" remark was me getting carried away on a rant about dbd as a whole. The game has taken a turn for the worse - especially for high playtime players as they have worked hours on the game to learn certain (intended) skills (NOT BUGS - such as window teching) for them to be removed/nerfed due to killers complaining about things which killers that have put the effort in can learn to play against. However the baby killers with up to 1-2 thousand hours don't understand these skills and so BHVR has acted on their complaints. I understand how frustrating this would be for BHVR as they change one thing to please one group and the other has instant backlash and hate toward BHVR. However, they need to start viewing the whole picture rather than seeing one group say this and not seeing the other sides POV.
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You can't be serious, dude... really? If that was me with Nemesis, I would hold the whip until I was sure to hit him, and even if I didn't hold, released the attack and missed I most than probably would hit him anyway with the bigger dragging time his whip has.
If the Xenomorph didn't miss, then it didn't loose the mindgame. He started doing the attack, realized the survivors wasn't going for the pallet, and had the reflexes to turn before the attack launched. And any other killer would be able to do that with the calm and security of not throwing the attack unless they want to. Come on!
And if you meant the hit where he doesn't even see the survivor, I'm more surprised that he even knew where he was. And with a pallet dropped and the Xenomorph in cooldown, what that survivor needed to do is get out of there instead of staying. Is what I said in my other post, people get confident in loops without realizing the Xeno can hit through them.
But you are right, just a few killer would be able to get that hit, and that's why you can't play against the Xenomorph like it is any other killer. And if it still a problem, then I guess a nerf to the vertical dragging of the attack wouldn't be that bad. But yet again, like no many other killers out there, we have to remember that survivors can completely remove his power. So, if he is able to use that much his power, is on you.
And come on, getting to the point of argue that being able to control when you attack is not better than had it automatically fire just because you wan't the killer nerfed to the ground is ridiculous.
Post edited by Batusalen on2 -
The nerf everyone has been hoping for isn't really about the m2 - its about removing his ability to m1 while in crawler mode. This could be having xenos choose when they want to enter crawler mode - provided they still have the full passive ability charged.
And if you are going to use the point that it takes skill to dodge and it shouldn't have to be charged - do you agree that DH should of stayed how it was back in 2020?
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Dude, do you realize that you would not be able to dodge flicks like that if the killer can hold the attack if you can't dodge them right now, right? As the flicks would be even worst? Let's get Nemesis for example, it has an audio cue when I prepare the whip, but you don't have almost any warning when I fire the actual attack. So, I can hold my whip, wait for you to get to a side, and hit you anyway.
You can't do that with the Xenomorph, as the moment you press M2 the attack would make the sound, would start the animation, and then would fire, allowing you to know exactly when the attack is coming. In fact, with practice you could get the muscle memory for timing the dodge. It's absurd, completely absurd, saying otherwise.
And the rest of the things you said, again: Ironic and funny, taking in count you rest of points and arguments, and even more taking in count the number of nerfs killer have had in the last times including the destruction of regression perks. But you do you, I keep saying is something that has nothing to do with what it is being discussed.
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I think you are honestly the definition of entitled killer main haha. I think you should try playing more survivor in solo queue, then decide.
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And I'm going to guess that turrets would be out of the game too, right? As there won't be any reason for survivors to take away his power when is that cumbersome to use and is in a disadvantage position, as now he would lose in close quarters as the tail is harder to aim there.
And if you are able to explain to me what dodging the tail attack from the Xenomorph have in common with "dodging" a survivor using DH, maybe I entertain that fallacy and answer you.
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The DH point is my way of showing you you how entitled you are. You only agree with a nerf if its on your terms.
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And I think that you are honestly avoiding to answer anything of what I said because you know you can't. But it is funny that you said that, as I spent all the last night farming BP as SoloQ survivor and did 2 escapes against the Xenomorph. The 3º time I encountered it he destroyed us, tho. And I have to say, I'm a total noob as survivor, I need to start using a controller and learn how to properly loop certain maps, man.
So, the only thing I could say to this is that maybe you need to start looking at a mirror before saying things like that.
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I didn't agree with anything, what I said is that I would answer you if you explain to me why we can compare both of those things equally without it being a false equivalence fallacy. And sure, there is someone showing his entitlement here, but sorry to say that it is not me.
And with this said, I don't have anything more to add to this conversation unless you answer my question. So, until then, have a nice day.
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But Nemesis would be prime example where this would actually NOT work. Because Nemi needs to charge. Because Nemi does not have guaranteed hit on pallet (animation or leave - if he can drag down). So no. Nemi ABSOLUTELY does not count here. Not to mention he needs 3 hits while xeno.... Needs to M2 miss if survivors spend like 10+s setting something up....
He needs something. His whip is perfectly fine if turrets actually worked. Remove all his anti-turret addons and maybe make turrets 100ms more punishing and for what I care make moving with turrets 30% slower from current state. But there needs to be counterplay that does something or the power itself can't be oppressive. You can't have "counterplay" instead of real counterplay if the power is oppressive instead of "oppressive".
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maybe u missed it before...
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Dude, Xeno tail isn't instant and it also need to charge, the difference is that Nemy can hold his whip charged and Xeno fires the moment it does, which is worst for aiming it. Nemy has a guaranteed hit on pallet if you know when and how throw that hit, even if they crouch, just like Xeno. So yes, Nemy absolutely counts here, like any other killer able to hold his power charged till the moment of firing.
In fact, again, that hit was harder to do with Xeno than with any other similar killer for that sole reason. And again, you can't take away the whip from Nemy.
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I know how his tail works. I 4K with him a lot of games (sure, I loose some too - especially if I get people way out of my league where I would not stand a chance having any other killer).
Also if Nemesis holds his M2, he is slower (not counting T3 - but it's usually end of game when he gets it) unlike xeno. Also he can't M1 when he holds M2. Also Nemesis can't hit anyone crouching behind window unlike xeno. Also Nemesis can't (at minimum reliably) hit survivors ducking behind tall side of pallet if not angled properly. Also ..... There are so many things making Nemesis very fair in comparison to Xeno, that I don't even get why u would compare those 2
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Maybe you missed that it is not that impossible to do when two people are able to do it in the same game, plus that Nick in the other clip. Or there is a lot of mystic seers among us, or maybe he is just over analyzing that clip to make an exaggerated point.
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Maybe it means we are again in a point of time where the only thing u can do against the power is pure prediction - where proportion between getting it wrong on killer's side is much more favorable then on survivor. That's like making all the pallets shack-level strong now and saying "that's fair - get good - here see clip where killer got that hit at shack so it is possible"
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Of all the things to reference in regards to skill, you chose hook grabs?
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Xeno is also slower when firing the tail. Xeno can't M1 when he is using his tail or after miss (there was some talk about a bug that made him not having any cooldown, but that is already patched afaik). Nemy can hit crouched people behind a window if he is close enough to that window (in other words, if the hitbox of the whip don't hit the window first). Nemy can, again, hit survivors ducking behind the tall side of a pallet most of the time unless you try to drag from outside.
And again, there is so many thing making Nemy "fair" because you can't take away Nemy's whip. Simple as that.
Maybe people just can do it reliably because they have learned, as people dodge Nemesis's whip. They aren't that far apart on charge and attack times, after all.
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yes, the 9k hour total, 4k hour killer and 5k hour survivor needs to consider playing more.
And as for the "avoidance" I am not avoiding your question I am simply sick of repeating myself. You have asked the same questions and have obviously shown that things may only be nerfed or buffed on your terms, making it impossible to have a conversation with you.
There is a reason there is so many killer AND survivor mains saying it should be nerfed. Including content creators such as JRM
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As for this, killers decided dead hard was too OP - even though it was mind gameable. Was this not your point to begin with, you started with the fact that people are just.. learning to dodge it?
That is why its comparable.
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"Mind gameable"... DH was as "mind gameable" as Xeno's tails is not "dodgeable", in other words, just a little. But if that's your point of comparation, then Xeno's tail is not "mind gameable" at all, as the moment you press M2 the attack start and you can do nothing to stop it.
So, even with your twisted logic you are wrong, as you can't compare something being "mind gameable" with the possibilities to dodge other thing. Again, false equivalency.
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Why would you want to stop it when u have still full control and can hit over everything? It's just delayed win. It's very rare that you actually truly want to "cancel" your hit
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For the same reason that you would want to hold your whip with Nemesis, to mindgame the attack when the audio cue of the charging ends and wait that additional second to see if the survivor tries to dodge or stay walking forward, so you can aim it.
I don't think it is so hard to understand.
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Nemesis has longer windup and much less control after he M2's. So there's no comparison.
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don't forget the counter to his power being the turrets which someone ends up getting punished for at the start (and usually throughout the game as well) for trying to set one up. He will just take the tunnel at start and either break the turret as he comes out or get you as you're walking trying to find a viable place to put it (which is usually out in the open since you can't place it in more optimal and hidden spots), either way, he will get a free hit.
I've learned just to kms on hook for Xeno & SM matches, why delay the frustration that's due at some point during the match...
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What windup? And what it has to do with the ability to hold the attack after charging it?
The differences are, again centiseconds between both attacks. In fact, without counting the charge time, Nemesis's whip fire faster than Xeno's tail.
But whatever you say dude, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over. If you can't (or don't want to) understand that being able to hold the attack and mindgame with it would make it so much harder to dodge and easy to aim than it firing automatically it's on you.
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All I can say let's agree to disagree. I could suggest you to any larger streamer and ask what tier list is xeno vs nemesis and why, but you still just don't want to understand that the "inconsequential difference" in their abilities (such as wind-up time and others) is the reason why nobody is asking for nemesis nerf. But it does not matter. I don't see it your way and you won't see it my way.
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And why would I ask anybody that when we are not comparing the killers as a whole? Nemesis has an anti-loop power and that's about it. Xeno is a chaser, and in this current meta that's why overall it is better than Nemesis, just as the same reason that Wesker or any other killer with chase capabilities is better than Nemesis or any other killer.
What you don't want to accept is that having the ability to hold an attack to mindgame and aim is better than just firing it, starting with survivors being able to generate muscle memory since the timing of the attack is always the same. That's why with Nemesis you charge, the survivor try to dodge after hearing the audio cue of the charging, you wait for them to move and then strike them with an attack that is even faster than the Xeno's tail.
One thing is disagree based on facts, other thing is not accepting those facts. So again, if you can't or don't want to understand and accept it, you do you. But you are just making excuses to have arguments for a nerf at this point.
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there's no muscle memory to build, because there's no reacting to it - as was shown in video already. So you have no "fact" for me to accept.
If there's no reacting to things, then for all intends and purposes Xeno's power is instashoot from survivor's perspective (sure enough, it's not from killer's perspective, but as there is no possible time to react - for survivor it's instascope DS with same kind of counter - "just guess correctly").
And I will not accept Nemesis holding-power thing, because when he holds his ability - he kind of commits to it - opening different kind of counterplay against him. So there's always something you can do (at least in a sense - do not get to situation X). That's not true for Xeno. That's why everyone complains about Xeno.
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That's why there is multiple video evidence of people reacting and dodging the attack, because there is no fact to accept...
Again, whatever makes you sleep better dude. But the undeniable fact in all this is that you are in denial.
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Ah yes. Like those that were proven to be false by Scott (and I posted it "only" 2x in this same thread). And you talk about not willing to accept facts
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