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Remove/Rework perks that counter a handful of perks
Im talking about Distorion and Calm Spirit,
Distortion counters all aura perks
which would be fine but the fact you get max stacks at the begining of the match makes it kinda to strong rework could be like
start with 0 stacks and gain stacks the same way you normally do.
having 4 free stacks at the start is very unfair, that would be like getting play with your food stacks just for loading into the match instead of working for them just dosent make sense.
Calm Spirit
literally counters Doctors Entire kit
but ontop of distortion hiding auras calm spirit negates screams so it makes perks like
Face the Darkness and Ultimate Weapon a waste of a perk slot, Im fine with there being some good stealth perks but survivors should at least have to work to get value from them, why is it a common theme that killers need to work to get value from there perks but survivors just get value for having them.
I get this is supposed to be a party game and all but that dosent mean the killers need to constantly fight tooth and nail or sweat there butts off just to have a good time either.
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They would have to recode half of the perks then. There's a lot of killer/survivor perks that counter eachother or certain playstyles.
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I would disagree, because you almost never see a full team running either Distortion or Calm Spirit.
It will disable your killer perk vs. the 1 survivor who takes it, but you still have the 3 others that you will be finding and pressuring, which does certainly not make it a waste of a perk slot. If a full team does run it, that's a huge gamble that more than likely will not encounter a scream killer, so 4/16 perks are worthless for survivors here.
In fact you could argue it helps you as the killer, cause your detection perks keep you seeing/applying pressure to the same 3 survivors, and more likely to find a survivor you need to kill, instead of getting distracted by the one survivor you haven't hooked all game.
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Distortion starting with 0 stack would be massive nerf. It would make it kinda trash.
Main thing about Distortion is to counter Lethal Pursuer.
Trying to compare it with Play with your food or STBFL, doesn't really work. They just work completely different. Unless you want to give 1% movement speed bonus on Distortion per stack, or some other positive bonus, then it could start with 0 stacks.
That perk is useless if you don't use information perks...
Just leave that perk alone, it's currently quite good perk without an oppressive effect. I would like to see more of those.
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Distortion is kind a 50/50 chance, like, it will work if the killer uses aura perks, if not, is just a wasted slot. I think that MFT is a bigger problem because it makes you faster than 2 of the Knight’s guards, if playing Knight is already a bad experience, imagine playing against 4 mft users. And also gives you an infinite advantage against every killer so…
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Wanting to nerf CALM SPIRIT... It has come down to this, damn.
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Yet another killer main crying over niche perks.
Calm spirit has its downside, you literally are getting 30-40% increased time of cleansing totems and opening chest.
Distortion is needed for weak links of the team, so the killer won't find them very easily and tunnel out of the game, making it measerable for 3 other surviviors.
Post edited by vol4r on5 -
Yes but im just talking about Distortion and Calm spirit as those are the biggest issues I see
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I can see that but at the same time, Calm Spirit does more then just negate killer screams so its viable regardless of what a killer brings |
- Prevents Crows from being alerted by your proximity and flying off, unless they are being stepped on.
- Suppresses the urge to scream from any cause at all times.
- Suppresses all noises related to unlocking Chests and cleansing or blessing Totems
- Reduces their Interaction speed by 40/35/30 %.
Even if a killer dosent have a scream perk and you dont get the value from it you still get all these other buffs anyways so even if they didnt bring a scream perk your still getting value off it.
and Distortion is always a good pick as most killers bring 1-2 info perks
and dont forget distortion removes your scratch marks aswell which is a giant way some ppl find survivors easily
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Then make it 4 stacks max and you start with 1, that way you still counter lethal but you at least need to work to get more stacks, instead of still having 3 stacks left which imo is way to unfair when the early game can matter quite a bit
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Funny bc i play both sides equally, so yet another example of a guy with the us vs them mentality, and um no, sure you take a bit longer to cleasnse and bless totems but its totally silent thus giving you kinda a better advantage then if you were doing said actions without it since sound is a big thing in this game.
And while I agree distortion is needed for the weak links of the team, when you have all 4 ppl running it then it becomes a big problem bc you can never find anyone.
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Both are fine perks.
If you like to have aura reading and think you are facing too much distortion users, stack 3 aura perks (Lethal, Nowhere to Hide, BBQ, etc) + Corrupt and you drain their stacks very quickly during the match.
I'm rarely bothered by Distortion, as i tend to use non-aura info perks (Jolt, Surveillance, Deadman). You could try them as well
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true but I shouldnt need 3 perks just to counter 1...
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Imo, perks that just fully hard counter other perks are fundamentally unhealthy.
Distortion full hard countering aura builds/Perks is just ridiculous, a suggestion has already been made previously to restrict the token regen to either only happen while *IN chase* or only happen *OUT of chase*. Theres instances where even with Lethal + 9 BBQ procs, the distortion user doesn't run out of tokens because of how the regen works.
Calm Spirit full hard counters Screaming builds/Perks and Doctor as a whole. Tokenize it like distortion + regen tokens only when out of chase inside the killers TR to keep the theme of the perk.
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Examples of well designed "Counter perks" are Fearmonger and Blood echo.
Fearmonger putting 5 secs/Pausing exhaustion when working on a gen is enough to mitigate the usage of Exhaustion perks while not outright deleting them.
Same thing for blood echo, IF you're injured WHEN someone else gets hooked, you get hit with 45s of exhaustion(60s CD) it mitigates exhaustion perks, but you'll still end up getting value out of them.
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Meanwhile Distortion and Calm spirit just delete the perks they are countering for the entire game to the point where if you bring Lethal+BBQ+UW+NWTH (or any other aura/Info build) you'll essentially be playing perkless because the survivor decided to bring 2 perks.
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True I only think it sucks when you only bring 1 aura perk and never get value from it bc everytime you use it they are protected bc they have 4 stacks. 4 stacks at the start of the game is very unfair to me, would make more sense if they got 1 stack then had to build stacks like any other perks that has stacks for killers and survivors.
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This perfectly sums up my point, ppl are acting like im crazy for complaining about these 2 perks but they dont realize how easily abused these perks can be, I mean why should 1 perk counter a entire killer power? like rip doctor mains lol, but I agree I think both should require tokens and those tokens you should work for not just get for 0 effort or reason
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you would have to change the way how to earn stacks. It's simply not up to the survivor and make it easier, so it's actually possible to earn it against any killer multiple times per game, which currently is not.
Unless you run wall hack Nurse build, you usually don't care anyway. You have one perk (for most builds) that doesn't work on one survivor, end of the world.
It's a perk that has a chance to not do anything, why would you want to nerf the situation when it works?
Btw it got worse, because of Ultimate Weapon anyway...
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I ran both last week and I can say this:
I go little to no value with Calm Spirit since I had 1 or 2 killers running Ultimate Weapon.
Distortion, however, got more value than the other perk so it need a bit of a nerf. Having it start at 0 token will kill the perk. But, if it start at 0 then to compensate, you get a token every 20 (or 25) Seconds.
On top of that, half of those games, the killer didn't run any aura reading.
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Calm Spirit insta counters ultimate weapon lol and also counters doctors entire kit, hence why I said its a bit much as it negates an entire mechanic a killer uses
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Tbh I think you should gain a stack every 30 seconds and cannot go above 2 stacks, if you getting a aura negate every 30 seconds then maxing at 4 stacks would be way to much bc you would always get value from it. they could make it work like Pain Res you have a set amount of stacks and thats it. that way you get value when you use it but you cant just get constant value since you can get stacks back on it.
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Calm spirit is the only counter to ultimate weapon, lockers don't even counter it, so you wanna leave that perk uncounterable?
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No but would make more sense to put calm spirit on a cooldown that way you cant just perma counter a perk/killer power (doctor) makes 0 sense that killers need to gain and lose stacks while survivrors either get max stacks at the start (distortion) or infinite use (calm spirit) can you imagine if a killer started with full stacks of play with your food?
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Ah yes, the "Killer players have to work for their perks and survivors don't" crap. You open a locker and survivors scream. That's some serious hard work right there. Killer and survivor roles are completely different. Doing a straight comparison between the two doesn't work and just gives BS results. Should you have to regress a gen 50% before Lightborn activates? No. Should SB only work when the survivor completes a gen? No.
No, CS does not completely invalidate the Doctor's power. His power does more than just make you scream. CS stops you from revealing your location but that's it (although a Doctor with more than two brain cells can still see your portrait change. Bad Doctor players are basically unable to play without auras and will walk right past you if you don't scream). Everything else still works exactly the same for the Doctor.
As far as Distortion is concerned, it's a good perk, but as killer you can chomp through tokens much faster than the survivor can get them back. The only way the survivor is getting them back is if you are in chase with them or they are hiding in your TR doing nothing.
The game has tons of perks/add-ons that completely invalidate each other. You have no idea what you are going up against and sometimes you end with useless perks that do nothing for the entire match. It's just part of how the game is designed.
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I was talking about Distortion, lol.
It's useless against Ultimate Weapon.
How often you see Doctor? He alone is not worth using that perk.
He is going to have rough time while Ultimate Weapon is meta tho.
But you definitely should have counter perks in the game. I wish there would be good exhaustion perk for killers to counter MFT and exhaustion perks in general...
Why you don't complain about detective's hunch and other totem hunting perks? It makes hexes useless.
Forced Penance to counter protective hits and healing in general.
Plague makes healing perks and medkits useless.
How is that not an issue for you?
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They need to be in your terror radius first, dosent work when undetectable, so wraith and sadako and T1 myers can use it really effectivly, and perks that reduce terror radius nerf it. and your using one example while survivors have multiple perks where you get value for doing literally nothing.
and yes it does negate doctor, when he uses his AOE ability it literally negates that, and thats what doctor mains use to get easy info + more insanity stacks
Every 30 seconds your in the killers terror radisu you get a stack, thats really not that hard to do bro, more so when ppl like to shadow the killer for flashlight saves.
and again with distortion you get 4 stacks at the begining even if you use lethal, plus one nowhere to hide your still having 2 stacks left and prob get 1 more back by the time the killer uses those on you again...
and can you give me any other perks besides Distortion or Calm Spirit that negate multiple perks by themselves????
Distortion negates all aura perks, what killer perk negates all survivor type perks?
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Plague makes sense when you cleanse at a totem you are instantly healed....
and plague isnt a perk im talking about perks here...
Why you don't complain about detective's hunch and other totem hunting perks?|
theres alot of problems with hexes in general dude. the biggest one is the garbage spawns.
and detectives hunch needs a gen to pop in order to get value, Distortion and Calm Spirit you get value constantly since its a basically a free protective bubble from a status effect. thats not even a fair comparisson, Detectives hunch has a activation requirement the other 2 do not..
Forced Penance to counter protective hits and healing in general
it dosent counter healing in general it counters protection hits, and its a very situational perk and its the onloy one of its kinda, what other perk punishes ppl for taking a hit?
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wraith and sadako and T1 myers can use it really effectively
Why not apply same logic for Distortion?
It's so effective to gain stacks against those killers.
While Wraith is going to drain your stacks really fast... nowhere to hide, Nurse's calling, his aura addon. 4 stacks is not much against that
So if you want to cherrypick, expect same in return...
For any situation you make it a good perk, I can easily create situation where it's trash.
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Calm Spirit is also very situational perk...
It works against few perks and one killer, so what's the issue?
Plague is a killer, so? Doctor is killer too. When killer gets countered by a perk is bad, but when killer counters multiple perks and item, it's fine...
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Calm Spirit is not situational, it negates crows aswell dude... also negating spies from the shadows, and makes opening chests and blessing totems silent, you constantly get value from that perk in some way shape or form.....
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You implied CS makes the Doctor useless. That's wrong. Next time say that it negates one of his most useful tools instead of acting like his entire kit becomes useless.
Hiding in the killer's TR isn't that hard, no. But try asking survivors how they feel about teammates sitting in the killer's TR doing nothing for extended periods of time. You can also lose stacks during this time, as the killer can activate aura perks that wouldn't have consumed a token if you hadn't been so close to them. Sometimes farming tokens not only wastes time but can actually cost you tokens.
Distortion has three stacks not four.
You are missing the point. Distortion counters all aura reading, yes. But it's not infinite. You have to get those tokens back or else you light up like a Christmas tree. Getting tokens whilst hiding, means you are not being productive, and like I said, farming tokens can also completely backfire.
As I previously mentioned, the roles of killer and survivor are completely different. Most survivors are not playing at a high level or with any VC without other players. Those survivors have to account for so many things that can completely ruin a match at any moment. Killers do not have this problem. As killer, I can act unilaterally. Assuming the matchmaking works and I don't play poorly, I'm probably going to win most of my matches. Stop trying to draw straight lines between the two sides. They are not alike so any comparison made falls flat.
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I disagree... Alot of perks tend to copycat or try to Cannibalize other perks (no pun intended if you are a Cannibal main). But, generally; people would stick to the meta or stronger more beneficial perks over the others. I disagree that Distortion is a awful perk, as the ability to passively be aura immune and be able to tell your team (when playing with friends) on whatever area reading perks/addons the killer is running is quite powerful. It is rare to see a full team stack it, but just one is enough to give your free information on whatever aura reading builds the killer might be running. Plus. It can be completely worthless perk if the killer doesn't have any form of aura reading. Would be nice buff, though if they share this passive aura reading blocking to any teammates you are next to when healing and doing Generators together.
Calm Spirit is situational, definitely a perfect counter for killers that want to make you scream like doctor or any infectious fright killers. Beside the screaming, I don't think crows being not disturb is not that significant. If only, crow related killer perk like Spies from the Shadow get a significant Buff and crows are literally something Survivor should be mindful about; then maybe... this perk gets a indirectly Buff and be a effective perk around stealth agaisnt crows.
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calm spirit+distortion requires survivors to run 8 perks out of 16 to counter your build. that is 50% of their entire load out. not only that, it only works vs said perks and does not neccassary improve your raw stealth capacity which is already pretty bad for survivor as is with scratch marks, cry of pain when injured and blood marks all being tracking tools that the killer can use.
blood echo and fearmonger by themselves are terrible perks but together, they're ok IF you can keep survivor injured. This is part of reason why killer do not run these perks because survivors only run 1 exhaustion perk, so even if all 4 survivors run 1 exhaustion perk, they're only using 25% of load out while your running 2 perks for 50% of your load out to counter exhaustion. the irony is that while exhaustion effect makes you indirectly strong in chase, it doesn't improve your raw chase capacity which for many killer is already not very good. the killer that have good chase capacity don't need these perks because they outplay exhaust perks without needing any perks due to her strong-chase in-chase mobility.
counter-perk are part of the game but they're not exactly good perks because cost of running them does not meet rewards in most cases. survivor can run these types of perks more on individual scale to complement stealth approach but rarely will you be ever facing entire team using said perks. by the fact survivors are not all using same perks, it means your perks will activate. Just not on every survivor. if killer or survivor have corresponding perks, you can still win the match without your perks. the perk are optional advantage, not a given advantage that works 100% of the time.
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You need better game sense and you will never be bothered by calm spirit or distortion again.
I don't use any aura reading perks and i still 4k almost every game, i always know where to go, I am using my headphones efficiently, if someone is around i know that.
There is no need to nerfing those niche perks.
"skill issue"
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This is a blatantly disingenuous argument.
CS is being used now to counter the usage of UW and other screaming build/synergies with it.
CS provides you INFINITE deletion to ATLEAST 25% of a killers build , if the killer is running a DMS/UW combo you counter 50% of his entire build for free permanently.
If doctor one day becomes a super high pickrate , CS would full hard counter doctors power and its synergies.
Distortion is also a full hard counter to aura builds and perks, and the easiness of token regen also lets it stay up for the entire match.
Survivors just end up giving up the "extra" chase perk in their build for an extremely unhealthy hard counter like CS/Distortion.
You end up seeing builds that consist of WOO+MFT+Resi+CS/Distortion
Effectively giving up nothing of their own core build to hard counter a killers entire aura/scream builds and perks, you can't pass this off as balanced in any way shape or form, it's an extremely unhealthy perk design at its core.
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they are giving up something, they're giving up a different perk that might provide different value. example, if their build was WoO+MFT+Resi+Hope. Their build changing to WOO+MFT+Calm spirit+Distoration is giving up Hope and & Resilience.
If anything, you might be gaining value as killer because your facing weaker perks because your perk is gating their load out.
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Come on man, you gotta stop being disingenuous.
Nobody is going to double stack distortion and CS.
It's either one or the other depending on the current "meta".
Swapping out adrenaline for CS or distortion is by all metrics a massive benefit for the survivor.
Adrenaline does feel like the survivors NOED, but atleast it only procs once when all the gens pop, meanwhile distortion and CS provide permanent value throughout the match and essentially turn off a killers perks and power for free.
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It's either one or the other depending on the current "meta".
if it is not both, you can use aura perk vs calm spirit users and ultimate weapon vs distortion users.
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Ah yes , guess i should look into the future see the endgame screen take note of what counter perk the survivors are running and counter the counter perk before the game starts.
Totally doable , not having premonitions is a skill issue /s
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survivor don't know killer perk either.
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I dont know if survivors are going to be running a variant of MFT+Resi, but im still more than willing to bet 100$ id see 1-2 per match.
Same way survivors are willing to bet the killer is going go have an aura/scream perk , and bring their distortion or CS.
Infact, CS started being used specifically because UW became popular, so your argument is out the window, once again.
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What? So because it's popular that means you are guaranteed to get value? I mostly play bubba and don't use aura perk or scream perk.
Should survivors get refund? Or going at it directly your way - survivors should know what perks I am using, because otherwise they vould waste their perk slots. Riddiculous? Yes indeed it is... And yet you just wrote it:
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Calm Spirit doesn't counter Doctor's power completely.
You still gain madness, still suffer from madness effects, and shock therapy still prevents your from throwing pallets and vaulting.
The only thing it does counter is screaming giving away your location, but doctor does have an aura reading addon to counter that.
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The point is that because the aura/scream builds are popular you are very likely to get major value from the perk.
Even IF you don't proc the main benefit of either perk, you get knowledge on what perks the killer *isnt* running and you're able to make informed decisions when it comes to endgame.
Cleaning all totems, touching gates to trigger NWO, 99ing gate for bloodwarden, etc etc.
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Ok. So hide lobby - flashlights are common already so why should killer see survivor items - he gets value from it anyway? Also make lightborn token-based and make it recharge slowly or give it considerable downside like distortion/calm spirit.
At least be consistent with your reasoning. Your version even if stronger "is fine". Survivor version even if conditional and with less informed decision "absolutely needs nerfs"
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Nobody mentioned lightborn, but when it comes to lightborn its main purpose is to counter an item... items that you can swap out midmatch (not to mention items being essentially 5th perks)
The equivalent would be killers being able to swap out perks midmatch as soon as they detect distortion or CS.
Anyway, nice attempt at a strawman.
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It's not a strawman. The title of this whole topic is literally Remove/Rework perks that counter a handful of perks. So is it that off-topic to talk about perk that counter handful of items? But nice attempt to sidetrack the discussion
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Yes because they are not even comparable, lightborn countering an item you can swap out midmatch is not on the same level as distortion and CS rendering a killer perkless, or in the case of doctor , CS deletes his built in static blast tracking abilities.
For it to be comparable killers need the option to swap out perks and killer midmatch and that just isn't reasonable to implement.
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You can't realistically swap item (chests are really bad and are throwing so while u technically can, in practice you are helping killer this way). Also there are more perks like this - nerf sloppy butcher as it hard-counters reactive healing and solidarity.
Should I bring more examples where you will be unhappy just because it nerfs killers instead of survivors?
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I think you're misunderstanding what a hard counter is...
Sloppy butcher doesn't delete healing perks, it just makes them *harder* to use and lowers their potential effeciency.
Like sure, sloppy butcher makes self care take longer to heal, but it doesn't delete the perk outright.
Now compare it to distortion and CS...
Distortion outright deletes lethal pursuer, also deletes BBQ and chili because you're very likely to regen enough tokens to last you the whole match. (Starts with 3/9 , if lethal is brought 2/9).
And severely mitigates all other aura perks.
CS just outright deletes screaming perks permanently, infectious? Dead. UW? dead. Hex:face the darkness? Dead. Iron maiden? Severely mitigated. Make your choice? Severely mitigated. Deathbound? Dead.
Hard to justify the balance of these 2 perks being able to delete a good portion of killer perks.
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I was specifically talking about reactive healing. That perk IS HARD COUNTERED by sloppy (specifically by hemorrage) - because it does NOTHING if killer has the perk, because your progress gets immediatelly deleted. That's a hard counter in my book
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Reactive healing gives you instant 50% heal progress if youre within 32m of another person going down.
You lose 7% a second from hemmorage, so it takes you roughly 7 seconds to lose the entire bonus.
However, if you're currently being healed the 50% still kicks in and finishes up your heal, or you get a flat +50%
Like i said, sloppy just mitigates the perk, it doesn't prevent the 50% from activating.
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