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Slugging cannot be that toxic
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"Someone is playing the game? No. I am in this game and I do not want them to play this way! So they better play the way I want and do the thing they are trying to do in the next game!
I do not care that the thing they are trying to do is common, normal, expected, not toxic, not a big deal and just part of the game. It slightly incoveniences me!!! So how dare they?!?"
How is this not an awful way of looking at the game?
How is it even a short cut? That makes no sense. Are they not killing everyone? All it is is insurance against the hatch... Are you really that petty that staying in the ground for a bit gets you up in flames?
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The wiki is wrong about this and the devs won't answer the question even if you tag them directly. I have tried.
A while back, the devs changed the end game killer rating screen to only give Merciless Killer ratings when a 4K happens. If you bleed out one survivor you won't get Merciless Killer, the game does not count the bleed out as a kill. Bleed out all 4 and you get a Brutal Killer rating, or 0 kills.
If you look at some of the old videos the devs put out they talk about MMR and how it is based on the simplest formula, Kill or Escape = MMR up. If the game isn't counting bleed outs as kills, MMR isn't tallying them as kills either, and is more than likely counting them as losses.
There are some killers with thousands of hours in the game who bleed survivors out every match, and unsurprisingly they continuously go against survivors who are new to the game or only have a couple hundred hours max.
So back to the devs answering the question. They aren't going to answer the question because bleeding out survivors every match is an easy way to lower your MMR while making the other side miserable and they don't want it advertised.
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Just an fyi: the wiki datamines its information. If you call the wiki wrong, you're also calling the game wrong, which doesn't work.
You're also conflating tally screen ratings and MMR. The two are independent systems. The devs only changed Merciless Killer and the likes to be based purely on the number of kills you got because of Adept achievements. Before that change, Merciless Killer required a double-pip. Unfortunately, the pip requirements increase with your current grade, meaning if you had a high grade, it was much more difficult to get a double-pip than when you had a low grade, unfairly affecting Adepts.
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Unfortunately, this is the most common occurance of 'slugging' we see and why so many complain about it. The mentality of ' just lie there till I want to come back for you' that most killers seem to see as acceptable really is an issue and its one of the biggest things I'd like to see changed moving forward.
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The tally screen with killer ratings changes based on kills. MMR is also based on kills. If the tally screen isn't registering a bleed out as a kill, it can logically be said that MMR isn't recognizing it either. I stand by saying that the wiki is wrong based on observable information, that can be easily repeated by any player, collected while playing the game.
Also from the wiki "Despite the vast majority of the information presented hereon being accurate and up-to-date, note that this wiki is open and can be freely edited by anyone, and that as such not every piece of content it entails will have been reviewed by Fandom Inc., Behaviour Interactive or an administrator. As a result, none of the aforementioned entities can guarantee that figures exhibited on this website are always valid and of sufficient quality, for all articles run the risk of being inadequately changed or vandalised. For all intents and purposes, instances of the occurrences mentioned above should be reported to a Wiki Guardian in case the user does not possess the means to deal with them themselves."
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So many times players misunderstand what's happening in game, and it's easy to assume the worst when there are so many players that are the worst. My attitude changed a whole lot when I realized most in-game actions aren't as mean-spirited as they might seem.
I often brag that I'm at the point where I usually have a pretty good idea of what's happening in a trial, but that just means I'm confused less than I used to be. Most my slugs are completely accidental. I'm chasing someone and another cuts by me, I hit 'em. I didn't notice they were already wounded, I have no idea which player it was. After chase, I'll notice and go looking, but if they're hiding or just hard to find, I go on and let someone else find ya.
If you're on third-hook just because of bad luck, I'll often just start slugging you instead of hooking you. If a team is really clumsy, I might do that to everyone. I love getting to the 8th hook with no kills, that's when everyone's trying to play smart. I've had games where I did this and let everyone out, and one would be mad because they didn't understand I was winning while letting everyone keep playing and scoring. Can't please everyone.
Another thing, the whole hook-offering/Boil over/etc build, there's nothing toxic about making you bleed out if you're playing unhookable. No build should be an automatic win, that's the counter. I don't really feel strongly about it, I just don't like it when a survivor wins out over other survivors because of a trick, I think the best players should get out. If they're playing well, I don't mind, but they usually aren't.
But it's not toxic, you left me one way to complete my win condition, I did it. I would have rather hooked you 3 times, but it wasn't an option for me, I just had one option.
Survivors need to understand choosing to bleed survivors out for malice is toxic, no one gets any points, it's boring and sad. But that's the ONLY toxic form of slugging. If a killer is slugging you while there are plenty of players to pick you up, that is absolutely not toxic. That's a free pickup, an entire hook state, sorry it took 30 seconds, but it's a good thing that happened to you and your team.
I slug ALL THE TIME. It's a way to show someone they're still making bad choices despite me hooking them twice. You don't know enough about the game to realize I'm being cool to everyone. The only one that loses points is me, I'm not prolonging the game to make it boring, I'm risking it to keep it fun. Even if I'm toying with you, showing off how quickly I can get you, that's in-character for most the killers and I'm giving you points while being evil. Not toxic at all, it's DBD.
Anyways, I get that it's easy to see each other as enemies, but none of you are my enemies. Even if you're a complete a**hole in-game and after, even if you did everything that annoys me and nothing that doesn't, and worst of all: if you got away after doing so... not my enemy even a tiny bit. You're all just people that like to play the same game I do. I love to pretend to kill you, though.
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I think it's annoying when you slugged them fair. You saw both and got them both down. But I don't blame then if you slugged one of them ground and just kept finding the last. Unbreakble really should be basekit on these situations and deerstalker for killer.
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Bleed out does not give any emblems score denying usually pips and does not give kills in sacrifise gategory to your overall stats.
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i mean, a survivor can tell how the killer is playing, if they bm or not, slug or not. you cannot bag on top of hatch if the killer slugs you afterall.
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I think several people have already answered this question for you now.
So, care to revise your standpoint.
Bleedouts don't count for achievements or pips nor do they impact MMR. The MMR side I have seen and I'm not going into too much detail because I don't want to promote this person or these cheats. However, you can find people on youtube who are using cheats in DBD and one of those cheats allows you to see the mystical "MMR" of any player in the lobby. There has been videos of people showing MMR being impacted by kills vs hatch vs bleed out.
The Devs may never comment on the mystery that is MMR, but videos with illegal cheats have shown MMR not being touched by a bleedout.
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Why are people that datamine the game stating the exact opposite?
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Emblems/Grade =/= MMR
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No clue.
But again, there is actual confirmation from the devs and players that you get no progress on achievements or pips when you bleed someone out. It doesn't benefit the killer, just is a trashy move to hold people hostage for four minutes. And while four minutes doesn't sound like a long time, when it happens 3 or 4 matches in a row it becomes a quarter of an hour that you spend just laying there waiting for the timer to run out..
I've watched a video on Youtube from a person I suspected (and others on this forum suspected) of cheating. And they were, and they openly admitted it and laughed about it. Part of the cheat shows the invisible MMR, and it did not change after 4 bleedouts.
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Then we will have to agree to disagree, because you apparently don't believe in datamined information and since you went to the lengths of digging up a generic about me section that is featured on essentially every single fandom wiki, regardless of how bad or good it actually is, you seem to prefer disregarding it anyways.
If you're this convinced that the tally screen and MMR have the same win conditions, I guess you should go to the wiki and edit it. You will totally be able to convince the admins there that that is accurate information /s.
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Why are you conflating Grades with MMR? Even the devs say that the two systems are not using the same metrics.
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You’re over dramatising the impact of bleeding out.
It’s a legit mechanic and until BHVR change it for whatever reason expect to see it from time to time.
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Lol yeah. If you get eliminated you’ll need to try again.
Someone slugging isn’t trying to short cut the achievement they are just maximise their time to find the 4th player which makes complete sense of you are going for the 4K achievement or otherwise.
Expecting someone to choose to play to the opponent’s advantage is one of the dumbest things people expect from an pvp online game, yet here that very expectation is rife.
This is the very definition of player entitlement. “I demand you play to how I want you to play, to my advantage and if you don’t you’re a bad person.” Sheesh.
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Always fun when people run out of arguments and start attacking instead.
I did provide something most people would deem valuable: corrections to false information. If you don't consider that valuable then it's frankly not my problem.
The tally screen and MMR use different metrics to judge the killer and you getting angry about that won't change anything.
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I think we may be witnessing the birth of Misery Squad V2.
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You didn't show anything as evidence to show this is false information. A few people have now added to the evidence and examples of what is going on, again pointing to the extreme likelihood that the wiki is not accurate. And nobody is getting angry here, even though you tried to provoke it with your sarcastic remark.
The tally screen isn't MMR, but there is a logical connection between the two.
Tally Screen Shows Kills
Kills = MMR up
Bleed outs don't count as kills on the tally screen
So what the hell are they? They don't give ANY other positive benefit to the killer like daily ritual gain, adept completion, blood points, emblems, killer rating, or tome challenges. So why would they logically give positive MMR?
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What's next? A Skull Merchant complaining survivors force her to play 45 min games?
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Because, as myself and others have pointed out numerous times at this point, but you refuse to acknowledge, all MMR cares about is whether survivors escape the trial or don't. How they don't escape (kill, sacrifice, death) doesn't matter one bit to MMR.
The tally screen is not the MMR system so stop making up excuses for linking the two. That's the main issue here, you're making assumptions that are not validated by the game's code.
MMR has been around for only a third of DbD's lifetime. The tally screen, the different deaths, and the killer match ratings were made over 7 years ago when ranking was based on how many bloodpoints you got in the match. MMR likely wasn't even an idea back then, because there would three additional ranking systems before its release still.
Bleed out deaths are not kills because that's not how you're meant to kill survivors for adepts. Slugging can arguably be easier than hooking, but that's not what the devs want you to do for adepts. The only reason the tally screen rankings were changed to be based on kills were the adept achievements. Not the MMR, not the emblems, not the grades.
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We weren't talking about survivor MMR, this is about killer MMR which is based on kills. If you are talking for the survivor side, bleeding out appears to be the same as getting a hatch escape, a null result.
The tally screen was updated in January tie directly to kills, 4K = Merciless Killer, 3K = Ruthless, 1 or 2K Brutal, 0K = The Entity Hungers. If you bleed out all 4 survivors you get The Entity Hungers. The game does that, not me, I'm not making this up myself, the game changes those ratings they are tied directly to kills. The game is telling us that bleed outs are not kills, and when asked about this the developers don't answer.
On your last paragraph, just take out the words "for adepts" and you are on the right track.
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I wasn't talking about survivor MMR. MMR is a tug-of-war between killers and survivors. If survivors escape, they win and the killer loses. If survivors die, they lose and the killer wins. I took the former POV, but it applies either way.
I know the tally screen was updated and I agree with the way you say it was updated. But I don't agree with your assumption that that had an influence on MMR. You are still insisting on conflating the two systems. Why? Your only argument is essentially "because I say so/because that makes sense to me". For the absolute final time: your assumption is not backed by the game's code and ultimately, the game's coding is what matters, not what makes sense to you personally.
Since it's become evident that you cannot be convinced otherwise, I'm honestly done discussing this with you, as it's a senseless back-and-forth at this point.
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I'm telling you, they should killswitch survivors' movement. They keep making it difficult for me to get 4k. Why don't they just give up and let me win?
They always have to be so toxic, running away and doing gens. This is why killers camp and slug.
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I get it if there are 2 survivors left and the killer slugs me because the other survivor is around and got found close to me. I have absolutely 0 issues with that. What sucks is when the instigator of prolonging an inevitable demise goes to the forums to farm for sympathy for being inconvenienced with a prolonged slug out time.
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