What happens about Made For this?

I'd like it if the Exhaustion only applied while running. Trying to make it so that it can't be used with DH

At least Mft has waay better counters than UW. Exhaustion perks, exhaustion addons, instadown addons and killer powers, chase related powers and overall the survivor needs to have some looping skills at least to get value of.

UW gives you some great info value for opening a locker, and the only counter is a terrible survivor perk that debuffs you.

The benefit of deleting all scream based perk + doctor meant very little until UW was released.

Most scream perks are average at best, or the good ones like PR are not used solely for the info and scream part. And doctor is one killer out of like 30 killers so you have like a 95% chance of not encountering him.

Are you honestly considering Calm Spirit a good perk because it may counter perks like Face the darkness or Infectious Fright, and like 3% of the killer roster?

If this entire subset of perks is made of average to bad perks and 1killer out of 30 then yes, the perk is very weak.

It is completely different than survivors exhaustion perks because these are a lot stronger and a staple in every build.

Do you really consider perks like Lithe and Sprint burst are in the same league as perks like Face the Darkness and infectious Fright that you keep comparing scream perks to exhaustion?

You have a clearly killer biased way to see things.

"survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions."

Every perk in this game is meant to help you in some way, you dont get to decide which is deserved or not. To extend chases is the basic funcionality of an exhaustion perk, and is balanced in that way because survivors are against a killer that is faster than them and has powers that help him/her too. It is in the same spirit as me telling "well, gen regression perks either delete or mitigate killer mistakes and provide undeserved and skilless gen slowdown/+gen time".

For the survivors being 'gifted' part, this is also clearly biased. Good perks are given to both killers and survivors alike(we are literally talking about UW). What i was saying before that you say i am complaining is that Calm Spirit is a weak perk (which is true), it counters a variety of perks that barely see use and was nerfed with the last 'buff' it received. Nobody used it before UW to the point that its name could be changed to "Anti-UW" and would be accurate. So you are basically gambling a perk slot (that debuffs you also) everytime you use CS. At least the Killer has 4 chances of someone bringing a perk they are trying to counter.

"Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion."

Again, Exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks. If you could counter exhaustion perks entirely with a single killer perk it would be meta and extremely broken on release. But the options you have to try to lessen MFT value are more and are not exclusively to mft meaning If you use a perk like Blood Echo against Mft and no one actually uses MFT in that game, you can still get some value by hindering other exhaustion perks. If you use a killer like nurse or blight to deny MFT and noone actually uses it, you can play normally without being hindered or losing something.

This is what i mean when i said that mft has better counters than UW.

I throw bias because you take a survivor perk, literally say its basic funcionality and call it 'gift' or 'undeserved' or 'delete mistakes' when the same can be said about a killer using a certain perk for a certain situation. but using those perks as killer is perfectly fine to you and not undeserved in any way.

There are tons of things that are frustrating in dbd, and we would typing all day if we were to name every single situation so i really dont want this to be another balance discussion like the hundreds that are already in the forum.

"Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*." yes, i agree

"And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*"

no, because as in LITERALLY the previous line we established that Exhaution perk as a Category are *much stronger* than scream perks, so a perk that could fully counter all these would be extremely broken. But Scream perks as a category are bad, average at best. All of them are not worth running as killer, let alone counter it, except for one, UW that is so OP that literally stomped over all other killer info perks.

so it's CS better than before? no, it's not. it's the same weak perk that hinders you unnecessarily only that now is the only counter of an extremely powerful killer perk.

"Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences."

i wonder why you keep telling me things like "putting all your eggs in one basket" or "deal with the consequences if you run an hyper-specific loadout" when i have never told you what builds i use or anything like that. i dont know if you think i am an MFT lover or anything.

As for "Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes" i agree, but considering the only way to counter the most powerful killer info perk available is with a bad, very weak survivor perks that again hinders you unnecessarily, is a bad counter.

I used ultimate weapon yesterday in 3 games on my pig. It gave me 0 value. You want to know why? I already know where people are. If I need crucial info, I use Bbq. The info of that is way better.

I assume you like shattered hope as a counter to boons? That's the same logic as a counter to made for this.

I don't want to respond to everything you said, just throw in a couple of choice remarks.

Back in the days, when DH ruled supreme and was in basically every match, often 3-4 times (a striking similarity with MFT these days), and it turned killer gameplay into a chore and many, many killers asked repeatedly for nerfs, we as a whole were often rediculed and laughed at, told "bro, its just a perk", "its a perk in the game that the devs put there, so I am free to use it", "lol, cry some more", "ggez git gud" etc. And during this time a lot of brainpower was dedicated to device builts that would mitigate the unbelievable powerhouse that was DH.

There were builds using Blood Echo, Septic Touch, Fearmonger and all kind of seldomly seen perks, JUST to counter and deal with DH, because it was THAT meta, ie you could resonable expect to run into it each and every gameand many killers opted to play some counterplay to DH in favor of PainRes, Pop, STBFL; some meta perks had to give way to allow the counter some of us wanted and felt they needed. These perks weren't buffed and suddenly became good, but they countered what had become so integral to the meta, that it warranted playing them. Thats what a living, breathing, moving meta NOT set in stone and never to be touched again means. It probably wasn't healthy, as DH was overtuned, but it kept things moving on the killers side.

And now I am seeing someting similar with Ultimate Weapon. This perk is definitely overtuned, not gonna lie, as its stronger then all the other tracking and info perks, but its not providing you with 15s of wallhacks. Its overtuned because its stays up for so long, has a easily managed cooldown and there is basically no escaping it ... UNLESS you run Calm Spirit. Calm Spirit didn't change, but the effect it provides suddenly became massively useful, because the meta shifted. If UW stays unchanged, survivors could reasonably expect to see it in every match (or at least 75% or something like that), so CS would have much more value in that case then it held before, even though its still the same "crappy useless debuffing perk" it always was.

MFT is a very special perk: after a long drought of not so good survivor perks, and having a lot of their power house perks that made them untouchable and allowed survivors to make a weaker killer their plaything, MFT filled that void, and boi oh boi, did it fill it up. In record time it became the second most used perk and thats probably just, because not everyone came around to buy it, yet. The careful balance of all the loops and pallet to tileset spawns in the game, that took the general speed discrepancy of survivor to killer into account were all tossed out of the window and trampled upon. Killers could now be looped for ages on trash heaps (literally), just because they couldn't catch up and the endgame combo with Hope ... lets better not talk about that one. Whatever. MFT gave the survivor community a fun tool back and many jumped on the opportunity with gusto. Thats the big problem with MFT: it breaks the game on many fundamental levels, but it was fun and a treat for many survivor players who felt a bit hanging without anything fun and new for them; MFT wasn't just a new good survivor perk, it was the first one in a long time, it was fun and it was also way overtuned and broken. Taking it away would anger and astrange a lot of survivors, cementing the "BHVR always just panders to killers its so disgusting" crowd, while keeping it in the game leaves weak killers in the dust and lets some killers feel like "BHVR doesn't care about balance or horror anymore. Its disgusting!" Sitting behind a rock and a hard place. Ugh.

And then along comes UW, a similar overtuned perk on the killers side that breaks several rules, invalidates a lot of playstyles and perks, but thats stupidly fun to use as the killer, as it shuts down all sneaky sneaks and stealth and allows you to go back into the action ASAP. I am from a new school of though: I believe that this two perks are purposefully overtuned and left in the game, not only to shake up the meta just by their very presence, but also to derail the games balance. A balanced game is also a very predictable and boring game and we have seen this over the course of the last year. With this two perks the game becomes wild and strange again, allowing for hilarious silly momens and big triumphs. But this will only work if we keep both sides boosted by slightly overtuned perks. We can't make ALL new perks this strong, or we will end up with just 4 overtuned perks that make up the meta. But right now I think its rather ok; I still hate MFT to the guts, but if I can keep my UW, I will deal with it.

"How do you know for fact that Xeno was overperforming? We didn't even get to play the intentioned buff from the Ptb. It was bugged. They could have fixed the bug and let players try the buff."

Because he was not being punished for missed tail attacks. I know it was bugged but the devs sometimes tend to nerf things that could have been fixed and tested before. It's in the same way they nerfed PTB reassurance saying it was used for grieving when they could have fixed it by giving the hooked survivor the option to cancel it.

It was released during CoH prime time as a counter.

Would you have used it?

That a perk is problematic if the player needs to use other stuff to counter it.

Made for this is one, old CoH was one, old dh was one, cob + eruption + overcharge was also "one".

If you think shattered hope was a good idea to counter boons, I don't know what to tell you.

1- i won´t name it because it is not the point of this argument. My original comment you answered to was about comparison of Mft 's counter to UW. If you want to talk about perk balance or what you perception of what a perk can do is and what is deserved or undeserved is, then open a new discussion with that topic on front.

2- YES, obviously. I read CS's description. But realisticaly, the majority of survivors are using CS today to counter UW, not perks like Face The Darkness or Infectious Fright or Spies From the Shadow. Or for the chance that they may encounter a doctor instead of the other 29 killers.

3- seriously? i would bet that the forums would be filled with "why this perk doesnt work against multiple exhaustion?" "why do i need to give up a slot to counter X perk" "stop releasing this kind of perk and just nerf X thing". It happened before.

4- Yes, i agree. Yet i still say that having the strongest killer info perk be countered only by one of the worst survivor perks, is a bad thing to have.

5- As far i know you are talking to me, i dont see anyone else talking of this so i dont get why you must keep repeating to diversify my build or stop using MFT-Resi as you dont know how i play or how i build my perks.

6- UW is overtuned. It is stronger than any killer info perk available as it has no ingame counter other than CS. That was the point of my original comment. Either you dont bring CS and risk the killer knowing exactly where you are with no counter whatsover, or you make a huge gamble by bringing CS and risking the perk to be dead in your build while debuffing you if the killer does not use UW.

The nerfs didn't do much because the issue was unlimited self heals. No matter how long it took.

Old dh, I kid you not also had people saying: "just use blood echo, just use mind breaker (fear monger), just use exhaustion addons). It's the same argument.

A significant portion of the perks in the game take LESS to activate and give a stronger effect.

Not sure you wanna make that argument

That's literally how 90% of this game works.