What happens about Made For this?
Comments
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Personally I would hate this as it removes the counter play with Blood Echo and means I still have to deal with it every game :(
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I'd like it if the Exhaustion only applied while running. Trying to make it so that it can't be used with DH
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Xenomorph Was the first fun and strong killer in pretty much exactly a year.
It got complained about a lot.
Now it's nerfed.
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But complaining about something you see every game. That has no real counter and is very annoying to play against. That hits weaker killers very hard and is almost useless against the stronger ones. Is. Valid.
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But he was nerfed not out of complaints but because he was bugged and was overperforming.
Once they fix the tail hitbox, i'll guess Xeno will be in a decent spot.
Problem is that many people expected Xeno to be able to compete with monsters like nurse and blight when and that is impossible.
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At least Mft has waay better counters than UW. Exhaustion perks, exhaustion addons, instadown addons and killer powers, chase related powers and overall the survivor needs to have some looping skills at least to get value of.
UW gives you some great info value for opening a locker, and the only counter is a terrible survivor perk that debuffs you.
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MFT's counters are exhaustion based addons and items that give a *slight cooldown* IF the killer meets certain specific requirements to activate the perk or addon...
Fearmonger? survivor has to be repairing a gen to be hit with a 5s exhaustion... 5 whole seconds of no MFT wooooo...
Blood echo? IF the Survivor with MFT is injured WHILE you're hooking SOMEONE ELSE he gets hit with 45s of exhaustion... and you can't do this repeteadly because of 60s cooldown...
Add-ons? anywhere between 5-10 seconds of exhaustion.... woo.... IF you hit its requirements to trigger...
Meanwhile.. "Hey, don't like UW or any scream based perks? here, take calm spirit and just outright delete them from the game, lmao"
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I have no idea how you can look at this and claim MFT has "way better counters" with a straight face, because in my book outright deleting a perk and all its subsets is way stronger than a 5-10s Cooldown.
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Everyone is like it's taking the devs too long to nerf MFT meanwhile it's been more than a year since they acknowledged Blight's hug tech as an exploit and will be fixed and still nothing.
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Because there are better counters, and those are not exclusively against one perk. Objectively speaking, aside of countering UW, calm spirit is barely useful as the other scream perks and spies of the shadow are not remotely strong enough to use a perk to directly counter it.
So the only counter to UW you have is one very bad survivor perk, that only really helps against UW and not only is basically dead in your build if the killer is not using it, CS also hinders you by slowing down cleansing speed.
I am not saying MFT counters are great but at least if you use something like Blood echo and you are against other exhaustion perks like Lithe or Dead hard you can get some value, it also does not hinder you.
Same goes for instadown powers and chase related powers.
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Really now? Complaining that for the benefit of fully deleting all scream based perks + Doctors built in tracking, you do totems slightly slower? I'd accept that complaint as valid if it was gen speed slowdown, but side objectives? come on man....
If a perk went "All survivors are permanentely exhausted, however kicking gens takes slightly longer" that thing would became instant meta.
The hoops a killer has to jump trough to get value out of Blood echo and other perks/addons is quite honestly an hinderence in of itself.
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“If the survivor is injured, and not exhausted, MFT activates. (Insert MFT effect here). MFT remains active for as long as the survivor remains injured. When MFT actives, the survivor becomes exhausted, and the exhaustion timer doesn’t start until MFT deactivates”.
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The benefit of deleting all scream based perk + doctor meant very little until UW was released.
Most scream perks are average at best, or the good ones like PR are not used solely for the info and scream part. And doctor is one killer out of like 30 killers so you have like a 95% chance of not encountering him.
Are you honestly considering Calm Spirit a good perk because it may counter perks like Face the darkness or Infectious Fright, and like 3% of the killer roster?
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And it seems like you're considering the option to outright delete an entire subset of perks + a killers built in tracking to be "weak".
You have 4 perk slots, you can dedicate one to CS and scream perks will no longer be a problem for you, its a whole different beast from killer having to dedicate an entire loadout to counter exhaustion perks and even then the exhaustion perks still proc'ing because the effects are extremely minimal.
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If this entire subset of perks is made of average to bad perks and 1killer out of 30 then yes, the perk is very weak.
It is completely different than survivors exhaustion perks because these are a lot stronger and a staple in every build.
Do you really consider perks like Lithe and Sprint burst are in the same league as perks like Face the Darkness and infectious Fright that you keep comparing scream perks to exhaustion?
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it will be fixed
(Give it like a year)
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Developers testing endurance 10→5 seconds.
Information will come in a year.
pretty good job so far.
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No I dont consider scream based perks that just tell the killer that the survivor is "somewhere over there" to be on the same level as survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions.
Which is why I don't get that when survivors are gifted a full on delete to scream based perks, survivors still decide to complain because they can't fathom that they should swap around their perks instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with MFT+Resi+Windows+Hope/Adren.
Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion.
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You have a clearly killer biased way to see things.
"survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions."
Every perk in this game is meant to help you in some way, you dont get to decide which is deserved or not. To extend chases is the basic funcionality of an exhaustion perk, and is balanced in that way because survivors are against a killer that is faster than them and has powers that help him/her too. It is in the same spirit as me telling "well, gen regression perks either delete or mitigate killer mistakes and provide undeserved and skilless gen slowdown/+gen time".
For the survivors being 'gifted' part, this is also clearly biased. Good perks are given to both killers and survivors alike(we are literally talking about UW). What i was saying before that you say i am complaining is that Calm Spirit is a weak perk (which is true), it counters a variety of perks that barely see use and was nerfed with the last 'buff' it received. Nobody used it before UW to the point that its name could be changed to "Anti-UW" and would be accurate. So you are basically gambling a perk slot (that debuffs you also) everytime you use CS. At least the Killer has 4 chances of someone bringing a perk they are trying to counter.
"Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion."
Again, Exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks. If you could counter exhaustion perks entirely with a single killer perk it would be meta and extremely broken on release. But the options you have to try to lessen MFT value are more and are not exclusively to mft meaning If you use a perk like Blood Echo against Mft and no one actually uses MFT in that game, you can still get some value by hindering other exhaustion perks. If you use a killer like nurse or blight to deny MFT and noone actually uses it, you can play normally without being hindered or losing something.
This is what i mean when i said that mft has better counters than UW.
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You throw bias around as if you know what you're talking about...
comparing slowdown to exhaustion perks erasing mistakes is laughable... what mistake did the killer do when as soon as everyone spawns theres 2 survivors on gens cranking them away? was not bringing corrupt a mistake...? whole different ball game to a killer sneaking up on you, and right before you get hit you get bailed out by SB or DH, you messed up, didn't pay attention, and your mistake was erased by SB/DH.
In the case of MFT+Resi ... missplayed? got hit? heres a permanent 20-30% longer chase than normal just by holding Shift+W , if the killer drops chase because you've made it to a pallet/window you didn't deserve, you can also crank gens with a built in Prove thyself (9% v 10%).
Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*.
And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*
Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences.
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I throw bias because you take a survivor perk, literally say its basic funcionality and call it 'gift' or 'undeserved' or 'delete mistakes' when the same can be said about a killer using a certain perk for a certain situation. but using those perks as killer is perfectly fine to you and not undeserved in any way.
There are tons of things that are frustrating in dbd, and we would typing all day if we were to name every single situation so i really dont want this to be another balance discussion like the hundreds that are already in the forum.
"Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*." yes, i agree
"And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*"
no, because as in LITERALLY the previous line we established that Exhaution perk as a Category are *much stronger* than scream perks, so a perk that could fully counter all these would be extremely broken. But Scream perks as a category are bad, average at best. All of them are not worth running as killer, let alone counter it, except for one, UW that is so OP that literally stomped over all other killer info perks.
so it's CS better than before? no, it's not. it's the same weak perk that hinders you unnecessarily only that now is the only counter of an extremely powerful killer perk.
"Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences."
i wonder why you keep telling me things like "putting all your eggs in one basket" or "deal with the consequences if you run an hyper-specific loadout" when i have never told you what builds i use or anything like that. i dont know if you think i am an MFT lover or anything.
As for "Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes" i agree, but considering the only way to counter the most powerful killer info perk available is with a bad, very weak survivor perks that again hinders you unnecessarily, is a bad counter.
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Name killer perks that go "oh you missed your M1? lemme re-wind that and give you the hit." Theres no "Mistake erasers" on killer side that even come close to exhaustion perks.
If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects.
all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination.
On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them.
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Remove the dang on speed bonus. Why do you get a permanent speed bonus FOR TAKING A HIT?! That is bad design and does not make sense.
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It's simple: Gabriel is obviously still bringing in money. They mentioned they had tweaks for it in mind in the AMA shortly after the launch of End Transmission, and now here we are, several months later, with Made For This being a major issue, and still no sign of change.
It's either greed or ignorance, I can't see another logical answer.
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I used ultimate weapon yesterday in 3 games on my pig. It gave me 0 value. You want to know why? I already know where people are. If I need crucial info, I use Bbq. The info of that is way better.
I assume you like shattered hope as a counter to boons? That's the same logic as a counter to made for this.
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Nobody expects Xeno to perform like Nurse. That's straight impossible.
How do you know for fact that Xeno was overperforming? We didn't even get to play the intentioned buff from the Ptb. It was bugged. They could have fixed the bug and let players try the buff.
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well said. he probably thinks saying "just play blight lmao" is fair and reasonable. "waay better" counters...
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The only reason UW is good because it gives a killer the ability to force survivors off of totem cleansing by making them scream. It’s insane combo on killers to keep totems up and running.
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I don't want to respond to everything you said, just throw in a couple of choice remarks.
Back in the days, when DH ruled supreme and was in basically every match, often 3-4 times (a striking similarity with MFT these days), and it turned killer gameplay into a chore and many, many killers asked repeatedly for nerfs, we as a whole were often rediculed and laughed at, told "bro, its just a perk", "its a perk in the game that the devs put there, so I am free to use it", "lol, cry some more", "ggez git gud" etc. And during this time a lot of brainpower was dedicated to device builts that would mitigate the unbelievable powerhouse that was DH.
There were builds using Blood Echo, Septic Touch, Fearmonger and all kind of seldomly seen perks, JUST to counter and deal with DH, because it was THAT meta, ie you could resonable expect to run into it each and every gameand many killers opted to play some counterplay to DH in favor of PainRes, Pop, STBFL; some meta perks had to give way to allow the counter some of us wanted and felt they needed. These perks weren't buffed and suddenly became good, but they countered what had become so integral to the meta, that it warranted playing them. Thats what a living, breathing, moving meta NOT set in stone and never to be touched again means. It probably wasn't healthy, as DH was overtuned, but it kept things moving on the killers side.
And now I am seeing someting similar with Ultimate Weapon. This perk is definitely overtuned, not gonna lie, as its stronger then all the other tracking and info perks, but its not providing you with 15s of wallhacks. Its overtuned because its stays up for so long, has a easily managed cooldown and there is basically no escaping it ... UNLESS you run Calm Spirit. Calm Spirit didn't change, but the effect it provides suddenly became massively useful, because the meta shifted. If UW stays unchanged, survivors could reasonably expect to see it in every match (or at least 75% or something like that), so CS would have much more value in that case then it held before, even though its still the same "crappy useless debuffing perk" it always was.
MFT is a very special perk: after a long drought of not so good survivor perks, and having a lot of their power house perks that made them untouchable and allowed survivors to make a weaker killer their plaything, MFT filled that void, and boi oh boi, did it fill it up. In record time it became the second most used perk and thats probably just, because not everyone came around to buy it, yet. The careful balance of all the loops and pallet to tileset spawns in the game, that took the general speed discrepancy of survivor to killer into account were all tossed out of the window and trampled upon. Killers could now be looped for ages on trash heaps (literally), just because they couldn't catch up and the endgame combo with Hope ... lets better not talk about that one. Whatever. MFT gave the survivor community a fun tool back and many jumped on the opportunity with gusto. Thats the big problem with MFT: it breaks the game on many fundamental levels, but it was fun and a treat for many survivor players who felt a bit hanging without anything fun and new for them; MFT wasn't just a new good survivor perk, it was the first one in a long time, it was fun and it was also way overtuned and broken. Taking it away would anger and astrange a lot of survivors, cementing the "BHVR always just panders to killers its so disgusting" crowd, while keeping it in the game leaves weak killers in the dust and lets some killers feel like "BHVR doesn't care about balance or horror anymore. Its disgusting!" Sitting behind a rock and a hard place. Ugh.
And then along comes UW, a similar overtuned perk on the killers side that breaks several rules, invalidates a lot of playstyles and perks, but thats stupidly fun to use as the killer, as it shuts down all sneaky sneaks and stealth and allows you to go back into the action ASAP. I am from a new school of though: I believe that this two perks are purposefully overtuned and left in the game, not only to shake up the meta just by their very presence, but also to derail the games balance. A balanced game is also a very predictable and boring game and we have seen this over the course of the last year. With this two perks the game becomes wild and strange again, allowing for hilarious silly momens and big triumphs. But this will only work if we keep both sides boosted by slightly overtuned perks. We can't make ALL new perks this strong, or we will end up with just 4 overtuned perks that make up the meta. But right now I think its rather ok; I still hate MFT to the guts, but if I can keep my UW, I will deal with it.
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How can i name a killer perk from a cherry picked situation from the other side. I'll say it again, There are tons of frustrating things on both sides and we would be typing all day if we were to start naming what one can consider 'undeserved' or 'a gift to' or 'mistake eraser'.
"If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. "
If you could counter the entire set of exhaustion perks with a single perk it would be extremely broken. The thing is you are comparing an all-out counter of like 8-9 of the strongest perks to CS that only really counters one overtuned perk.
"it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects." yet it is not the same to have one perk against all exhaustion than to have a perk as solely counter of another. Would you like if bhvr released a bunch of perks that only counter an specific perk (Anti-Sprint, Anti-Dead Hard)? i dont think so.
"all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination." it is overpowered, it literally kills any stealth survivors could have unless they have CS. It even surpasses Lockers so there truly is no escape at all aside of being permanently miles away from the killer.
"On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them."
i dont understand why you keep posting these replies at the end. i often diversify my loadout, i may have used MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope like twice in all my games. These two things are not the reason why UW is overpowered as much as it is unavoidable without CS and kills all stealth.
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"How do you know for fact that Xeno was overperforming? We didn't even get to play the intentioned buff from the Ptb. It was bugged. They could have fixed the bug and let players try the buff."
Because he was not being punished for missed tail attacks. I know it was bugged but the devs sometimes tend to nerf things that could have been fixed and tested before. It's in the same way they nerfed PTB reassurance saying it was used for grieving when they could have fixed it by giving the hooked survivor the option to cancel it.
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If you already know where people are, then you dont need the value of an info perk. That doesn't translate to "UW gives 0 value" because the moment you need that info you can activate that perk at any time.
BBQ at least can be countered by lockers, or by being close to the hooked survivor, and distortion is an extremely good perk that works with multiple aura perks, not just BBQ.
"I assume you like shattered hope as a counter to boons? That's the same logic as a counter to made for this."
i haven't used shattered hope much before, and now that all boons are weak i dont think i will
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It was released during CoH prime time as a counter.
Would you have used it?
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honestly its just disgusting how game is survivor sided, starting with game itself, and ending with obvious dev bias. How much it took to nerf Thana? And how much it took to nerf dead hard? its really disgusting.
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1 - You can't name a mistake eraser perk for killer because they simply don't exist, or are so weak they might aswell not exist.
2 - CS doesn't just counter UW, it counters every scream perk + Doctors built in tracking + if theres no scream perk in play you don't disturb birds and can open chests and totems fully silently. Don't lie like that.
3 - You can bet that if killers had the option to bring a perk in order to delete one exhaustion perk of their choice, it would become instant meta.
4 - If you want to stealth around, bring a stealth build with distortion and CS, makes no sense to complain that you can't stealth if you bring a Genrush / Chase / Medic / Whatever kind of build.
5 - this ties into 4, Im talking to the general survivor population, stop acting like you're the only survivor in DBD.
6 - when you have a permanent delete button for UW via CS and refuse to use it, it either signifies that UW is not that big of a problem, or you're too stubborn to change builds, again, a perk that deleted exhaustion would be instant meta for killers because exhaustion perks are *actually busted* unlike UW.
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Maybe? I dont know. I wasnt playing dbd a lot during that time. What is the point you are trying to make?
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That a perk is problematic if the player needs to use other stuff to counter it.
Made for this is one, old CoH was one, old dh was one, cob + eruption + overcharge was also "one".
If you think shattered hope was a good idea to counter boons, I don't know what to tell you.
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Don't worry. Only 3 more years and then they will do something. Like Alch Ring restoring only 4 rushes instead of all of them and C33 hindering survivors by 2%. Then we'll have to wait another 6 months before they really take care of the issue.
Honestly, I feel like Blight is the DH among killers.
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1- i won´t name it because it is not the point of this argument. My original comment you answered to was about comparison of Mft 's counter to UW. If you want to talk about perk balance or what you perception of what a perk can do is and what is deserved or undeserved is, then open a new discussion with that topic on front.
2- YES, obviously. I read CS's description. But realisticaly, the majority of survivors are using CS today to counter UW, not perks like Face The Darkness or Infectious Fright or Spies From the Shadow. Or for the chance that they may encounter a doctor instead of the other 29 killers.
3- seriously? i would bet that the forums would be filled with "why this perk doesnt work against multiple exhaustion?" "why do i need to give up a slot to counter X perk" "stop releasing this kind of perk and just nerf X thing". It happened before.
4- Yes, i agree. Yet i still say that having the strongest killer info perk be countered only by one of the worst survivor perks, is a bad thing to have.
5- As far i know you are talking to me, i dont see anyone else talking of this so i dont get why you must keep repeating to diversify my build or stop using MFT-Resi as you dont know how i play or how i build my perks.
6- UW is overtuned. It is stronger than any killer info perk available as it has no ingame counter other than CS. That was the point of my original comment. Either you dont bring CS and risk the killer knowing exactly where you are with no counter whatsover, or you make a huge gamble by bringing CS and risking the perk to be dead in your build while debuffing you if the killer does not use UW.
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mmm, i truly dont know. I think it depends more on the effect of the perk that in the stuff we use to counter it. I dont know how a counter perk for OLD DH could be as it literally gave you I-frames
It is true that shattered hope was not the counter to boon Killers players wanted but at the time it came out, COH (the strongest of boons) had already been nerfed twice, so i don´t know if the devs truly intended for SH to be a Full stop to Boons.
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The nerfs didn't do much because the issue was unlimited self heals. No matter how long it took.
Old dh, I kid you not also had people saying: "just use blood echo, just use mind breaker (fear monger), just use exhaustion addons). It's the same argument.
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ive seen it happen for years now too and you should be concerned about a perk that has such an effect for doing nothing. none of these types of perks have been fun to play against ever ex. mettle of man or decisive strike. getting 3% haste for as long as you're injured by getting injured is the same asinine logic as getting a free hit shield for getting hit 3 times. no other haste buff from a perk is acquired by simply injured because of how insane it is. why would you ever equip yoichi's haste boon perk (which only gives 2% compared to 3%) when MFT exists. perks should not be so overpowered that you literally dont have a reason to use any of the other haste perks over MFT because 1. they are actually worse and 2. too rare and limited to actually make it worth (blood pact).
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A significant portion of the perks in the game take LESS to activate and give a stronger effect.
Not sure you wanna make that argument
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The counter is that most players who use MFT will play worse with it.
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That is just straight up wrong.
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They will overcommit and greed.
You run around a rock loop, with MFT, you get further around and run close enough to the Killer that they'll get a hit. I see this one almost constantly.
Better players will use it to greed. This is easily punishable by greeding yourself.
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I see a lot of players using the part of MfT that is the worst. Shift w. This has no counter. They run to a pallet. Look if your near. If you are, they predrop. If your not they run to the next pallet or window they see with windows. Nothing I can do. Add that to a bunch of unfair tiles and MFT makes my game miserable.
I just had players using the car tiles before Badham school. They just waited at the dropped pallet. When I got close, the vaulted with resi. I couldn't hit them. When I tried to run the other way, they got the complete round to get to the pallet again thanks to MfT.
Again: that's straight up wrong.
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Relying on your opponent to make a mistake is not a counter.
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The counter to nurse is that most players wont play her perfectly, this sounds just plain stupid.
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And a set amount really doesn't work either as part of the time after you activate the perk you will already be running with increased haste from taking a hit from the killer.
It just needs to be set up where it can't stack with Hope and as others have said, remove the endurance.
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That's literally how 90% of this game works.
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