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Why is Pop considered "balanced"?
I haven't seen anyone complain about new Pop, but I don't understand why.
It instantly deletes 30% of the kicked generators current progress. This effect can realisticly happen up to 8 times in a game, and if the gen is over 40%, an instant 15% of the generator is deleted. Its like old Pain res but doesn't need a scourge hook and deals more damage if the generator has more progress. It feels like the strongest killer perk atm.
I've had multiple killers who have gotten extra kills or massive slowdown just due to the ridoculous regression it applies, how is it balanced?
Comments
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Old Pop was better because it regressed the same value but from MAXIMUM instead of CURRENT progression.
I don't see problem with it. You need to get a hook and then find Gen to be best to used it on. Its only as effective as Survivors allow it to be. If your team is falling apart offten, Killer will regress a lot offten too.
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Pop was always fine perk. It rewarded killer for getting hooks.
The only problem, this perk is so strong on killers like Nurse and Blight. But it's problem with these killers, not perk itself.
So Pop is fine as is.
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Original Pop was definitely overpowered, the new one is weaker, but with perks like tinkerer its not very hard to see which gen is the most progressed.
How is "rewarding hooks" any different from "rewarding downs"? If downs and hooks should be rewarded with massive payouts along with the base progression, then what was wrong with old Eruption? Aside from slaughtering solo q more than SWF.
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Eruption's problem was it hurted solo survivors while SWFs played around.
SWF survivor: I am about to down, leave the gens.
Little regression on all kicked gens but nobody affected by Incapacitated Effect.
Now how you would do that with solo survivors? Killer would get you down and now all survivors can not do anything for 25 seconds.
This was ridicilous and most boring anti-gen perk ever.
Sure it was rewarding killer for getting down but it affected one side unfairly more.
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Thats literally why I said "aside from slaughtering solo q more than SWF". Many people said that getting a down shouldn't be rewarded much more than the hook state and pressure. Pop completely violates what a decent size of the forums were saying.
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This perk has a very strong effect, which seems to be more than balanced by its "pre-charging", it is activated only when the killer hangs survivors on a hook, which means that at best it will work once every 1 minute or so, due to the fact that he at least needs to find another survivor (which can take quite a lot time) and catch it, which can also take a lot of time, which gives us a rather longer window to fix the generators.
In addition, one of the reasons for the broken pace of the game is the almost complete absence of sane regression in the killers (well, except for this perk and the resonance of pain, which is quite situational and works only 4 times per match) If the solos are able to loop the killer or they have a pretty good spawn on map, this perk will not bring them a lot of problems,again, because they will be able to consistently win themselves a good window for repairing generators. Beginners and players who absolutely do not know how to loop the killer, I do not consider it pure in principle, because it can be learned-the main thing is that the game gives you the opportunity to do it
mhhh do you compare a perk that could turn off all the generators on the map in 1 second and potentially take all 4 players out of the game for 20 seconds? It's just a disgusting comparison.
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It rewards Killers for getting hooks and encourages them to not camp. It's fine.
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It's weird how Pain Res. has a "don't tunnel!" policy but Pop doesn't. You can tunnel the same survivor and keep getting value from Pop but it was bothersome enough that they removed it from Pain Res. I guess the only argument that comes to mind is "You have to go and kick the gen with Pop" (if we ignore half the killer roster has some type of mobility/teleport at this point).
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Pop Goes The Weasel is very healthy perk for the game. It doesn't work, if the killer can't get a down, which means it incentivises going for chases. And after the killer hooked someone, they also have an incentive to leave the hook to use their Pop. It's good that it's back in the meta. We all saw what the alternative was in 6.1.0. The game doesn't work without strong regression perks and as long as they work without getting any downs, that means they can be abused to play for 3gens.
Also, Pop Goes The Weasel is a great perk. But it's definitely not overpowered. Yes, Nurse, Blight and Spirit are pretty nasty with such strong perks but that is more of a problem with these specific killers rather than the perks themself. Remember Awakened Awareness and how it had to be nerfed because of Nurse? Let's not repeat this.
Slow down perks have and will always be meta because realistically the survivors outpace the killer. If they don't, then that means the killer plays A LOT better than them. Pop Goes the Weasel slows the game considerably as long as the killer can get downs faster than the survivors progress and push through. Meaning, if the survivors last long enough in chase, then Pop Goes The Weasel does very little.
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I mean i never said i agree with forum and usually i don't.
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Thats fair
How am I supposed to prevent my solo q teamates from going down in 20 seconds and then losing 35% of my gen instantly?
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Uh huh...and many people complain about the killer being rewarded for doing nothing (Ruin) and many people complain about the killer being rewarded for losing (NOED). Same thing if you flip the tables and look at survivor perks and complaints about them. The fact is people complain about strong perks, which Pop is, but it's not broken for reasons others have pointed out.
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I don't know how you came up with 35%. 30% of current progress and the 2.5% base regression for the kick do not equal 35%. No matter how much progress the gen had. Most of the time the killer won't be able to use their Pop on a gen that is nearly finished anyway. So they won't get the full value out of it.
If your solo queue team mate goes down in 20 seconds, then how can you expect to win? I know it sucks when someone else loses the game for you but, if someone goes down so fast multiple times and nobody can make up for it, then you deserve to lose. Survivor is a team game and if one member doesn't pull their weight, then they have to lose.
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It would realisticly be 20-30%
Losing 35% would be due to him kicking the gen, instantly losing 32.5, and then having to wait for him to move away.
This would only happen if the gen was 99.99%, so it is more hypothetical.
It is still possible to win if they go down in 20-30 seconds, but with Pop, its not really possible.
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To get 20% regression out of Pop, the killer needs to kick a gen with 66.67% progress. That can happen. A few times per match. But realistically a killer won't be able to do that more than 3 times (and even that is a bit of a stretch). For 2.5% of regression after a kick, you would need to let the gen regress for 10 seconds. It's likely you won't wait quite as long to touch it again.
That last part is true but it shouldn't be. Think about how a chase must play out for a survivor to go down in 20-30 seconds. If that happens once per match, that is not yet a guaranteed loss. But multiple times? That HAS to result in a loss. If you manage to go down in 20 seconds, then that means you didn't use an exhaustion perk and didn't use any structures effectively. This is about the time you get from holding Shift + W and pre running without using any pallets. Do literally anything to delay the killer a bit and you can get a much better time without too much of an issue.
Post edited by Xernoton on2 -
Pop has a very balanced risk/requirement vs reward.
You have to win a chase, hook the survivor and find a decently regressed gen to get good value out of it. From a 50% done gen you knock out 13.5 charges (30% of 45) , for comparison sakes, Eruption will always knock out 9 charges and jolt 7.2 charges. For pop to match these values a gen needs to be close to 35% done.
The issue isn't that "pop is overpowered " it's just that every single other regression perk got gutted so hard they aren't worth to use in late game.
Bring brine? Survivors can tap the gen and stop the regression or just finish the gen.
Bring Eruption? Chances are the 90%d gen will pop before you get the down. + has a lengthy base cooldown.
Jolt? Survivors will book it away from the gen or plot twist "tech" so the perk doesn't proc, while also requiring an M1 down.
Overcharge? The skillcheck is fairly easy to hit, and at the most you get 12.6 charges taken IF they fail the singular skillcheck.
Pain res? The 4 tokens are used up by the time you reach 2-3 gens, you're late game with no regression options.
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How is it not balanced? Old pop was balanced, and they still nerfed it.
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The Pop + Pain Res combo I’ve been seeing a lot lately is pretty ridiculous.
The only thing Pop needed was a minimum damage floor so that it always did something (eg. either 10% of total progress or 20% of current, whichever was greater). It didn’t need to be buffed to 30%.
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Id the team is going down in chase that quick they do not derserve to win in the first place.
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Because you have to EARN pop by getting a hook. And most often then not against decent survs they get 3 gens done before you get to your 2nd chase so by reducing the amount of gens to spread pop on gets reduced so it makes it slightly stronger. Also 30% current progress is nothing because to get the old 25% base regression before the nerf requires the gen to be at least 80%. And I guess its more than 25% if the gen is 99%.
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Yeah but the old 20% CURRENT progress was absolute horrid.
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It was fine if the gen had a lot of progress. It was bad if it did not, which is why I wanted it to have a minimum amount of regression so that it would never be completely worthless. Pop was and still is largely useless if the gen has little progress. The buff did nothing to fix that and made it too strong in its best case scenario.
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Pop is powerful because it has requirements and a time limit. You can't get all your Pop value because sometimes none of the nearby gens will be worked at all. It's making you kick the gen after the hook, which is often giving up a chance for a chase. It has to be powerful to be worth the trouble.
Most regression perks just require kicking a gen or normal gameplay. I'd argue that Oppression or Jolt are stronger overall because you're getting so much regression with less or no time invested.
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Eh the 30% was a necessary evil for having a 45 second timer, walking to the gen and hook requirement. By far more healthy than OverCrine or pain res even though that has 4 uses at most but is instant.
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the way you worded this perk, you could do it with unrelenting and call it op
btw what are extra kills and how does pop give extra kills
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pop is indeed strong, but it only fits "normal" killer gameplay. hook and patrol some gens and try to get another hook, which is nice.
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Pop is accepted for numerous reasons, even back when it was 25% it was at lesst considered a balanced perk.
Especially after the gen kick meta, people began to put Pop and Pain Res on a bit of a pedestal because unlike Overcharge or CoB, you had to earn these perks with a down and then hook. No slugging, injury, etc. You had to hook.
Pop in particular was deemed very balanced because even after the buf to 30%, it's number isn't as high as you might think. Let's say you have a 99'd gen, so you eat the full 30% or 27 seconds. That's brutal BUT there's the time the killer walks over to the gen and then kicks it. Let's say the walk is 10 seconds, then the 1.8 second animation. That causes the 27 to become 15.2, barely more than old Pain Res.
Considering its holes, time limit, scaling value, and needing to be earned in such a way that also limits its max amounts of usage in a trial, Pop is considered a pretty fair perk.
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that sounds like every single killer perk vs weak teams. right now pop feels useless on gens below 30% and eruption feels useless on any above 80% gens. the result is that you need pop+eruption so that kicking a gen feels like your damaging a generator. I dislike gen-kick perks for killer because killer gameplay become like a flowchart.
Another aspect is that it fails to slow the game down because the majority of killer have to walk gens so as long one survivor is on a gen, your not really slowing down the game in a meaningful way. just trade progression 1 gen for another gen. the vast majority killers have too poor chase and too poor map traversal to gain value out of the gen-kick perks to go positive on time, so their own real value from these perks is 3 gens.
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It's not balanced at all. For context, please remember when healing was drastically nerfed (removing killer progress) and killer slowdown perks was nerfed at the same time to give a slight resemblance of fair balance?
Well guess what happened thereafter? Killer slowdown perks are BUFFED!? POP was reverted. Pain Resonance BUFFED to remove a full gen worth of progress when used. Killers are using slowdown perks all the time yet nothing is being done.
CoH and healing, medkits are STILL NERFED. Enough said.
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Eruption had the problem of preventing you from doing literally anything, affected multiple gens, gave tracking, didn’t have a time limit so you could set it up anytime you wanted and didn’t have to worry about rushing to find a gen.
This is just wrong.
Pain Res and Pop are still not as good as they used to be. Pop was in no way reverted.
Eruption, Call of Brine, Overcharge, Thanatophobia, and Tinkerer are still bad.
Healing was in fact buffed after the nerfs. Remember when they originally had healing your teammates also take 24 seconds?
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Healing was in fact buffed after the nerfs.
There was no live change to make heals base 24 seconds, it was a test on the PTB that they decided not to go forward with after receiving feedback that it would absolutely kill the game.
From live version to live version, healing was only nerfed during that patch. Saying anything else is completely disingenuous.
This is like saying they removed infinite unbreakable for survivors, since that also never went live and has never been a live feature of the game, but was tested once in the PTB. I guess we should also be clamoring to remove that 'nerf' by the same logic.
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Yes you are absolutely correct. Healing wasn't buffed from live versions. But neither was Pain Res. The 'buff' that increased it from 20% to 25% was also a PTB test.
I agree that healing wasn't buffed, but I listed it because neither was Pain Res and claiming one was and the other wasn't is what is disingenuous. Unless they meant that current Pain Res is better than old Pain Res, in which case I still disagree. But yes, healing was never technically buffed, but neither was Pain Res.
I should've mentioned this in my original comment though so sorry for confusion :)
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1 survivor death, Wraith chased Jake on last hook, I and Yunjin were doing the last gen, Gen at 95%, I leave for Gate. Its only a skill check spawn right at that moment that made Gen extended for another 9sec.
That 9sec was enough for Wraith to last hook Jake and ran to our place to chase me and killed me. YunJin escaped.
That 9sec gave Wraith another kill.
1 pop or 2 in late game where 1-2 survivors are death and pallets are gone, is more than enough to give killer one extra chase, where it could be the last chase for that survivor, which an extra kill.
Same to a success DH can extend that 9sec for the last survivor to complete the last Gen, giving 1 escape.
But thats just how perks work. They do give a kill or deny a kill. If Pop doesnt give killers extra kills, why do killers use slowdown?
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If all perks were weak and the community choose the least weak perks to use. There will be someone on the forum to complain about it.
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Healing was buffed, not nerfed.
Self healing was nerfed, in that the two most overpowered elements of it were brought in line, but it's not so drastic that you can't do it anymore. That's a good thing.
Pop also wasn't reverted, its current implementation is still weaker than it was prior to 6.1.0. Pain Res was buffed from the PTB but it's still only a sidegrade to what it used to be- and since it only happens four times it's pretty balanced, I like new Pain Res a lot more than the old one for game health reasons.
To the wider topic, Pop is balanced because it's limited and requires doing well. You get decent enough regression numbers for winning a chase, correctly identifying the right generator to hit, and spending your time going and doing that. It promotes a healthy gameplay loop, and it isn't overbearing even in its best case scenarios- it's just strong.
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That perk is absolute garbage. Try not using it for a couple of games and you won't notice any difference in the generator slowdown. If a generator is not touched within a few seconds of being kicked, that means the survivors are probably awful. It is not like the old Pain Resonance, because that one aplied around TOTAL progress. POP is far from what it was before the perk overhaul, and then it was just decent, because there were no alternatives either.
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If survivors are going down in 20 seconds, i don't think they should win regardless of what perks the killer is using.
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downs and hooks are not the same though. There is a much lower cap on hooks compared to downs; you can hook survs a maximum of 8 times. you can down them a lot more often. Getting a hook also requires an additional time investment (carrying to hook) which might also come with some risk (fl, pallet, sabo, no available hooks in reach left for one reason ir the other).
Pop can hurt a lot on surv side but when it does it's either due to bad luck or because survs made the wrong call to avoid a worst case scenario. It can happen that a killer with Pop just happens to find a well progressed gen. Often a surv will not have greeded the gen though, or the surv in chase happened to run the killer to a well progressed gen. If survs know when and what to greed (and take a hit for it) and know which gens they should really avoid (game sense helps a lot; stay away from three gen areas) a killer will very often have to kick a gen that sits at less than 30%. They have up to eight shots at hitting the regression jackpot though. Bottom line: on the whole it's very much alright.
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so is this an extra kill or the effect of slowdown, because all slowdown perks give extra kills with that logic and not just pop
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Even if a gen is at 99%, a pop kick brings it down to 60 seconds of progress, which is at 66% max. So 29 seconds gained in the most perfectly optimally used time for that perk. (this includes the basekit kick)
Keeping in mind that the game is blanced around 45 second chases. And takes a killer 2.7 seconds of wipe animation, 3 seconds to pick up, ~8 seconds to walk to a hook (on average) and 1.5 seconds to hook the survivor. This means that downing a hooking a survivor cost the killer 60.2 seconds. And this perfect pop gives them back 29 seconds. And you want the killer to take 60.2 seconds of time 12 times in a game and the killer not camp and tunnel? So half a gen x3 of progress every hook?
In reality, most of the time. That pop is going to barely give you back the time it took to pick up the survivor, walk to a hook, hook them, then walk to the gen, then kick the gen. You probably just got all that time back.
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1:it requires you hook a survivor
2:it has limited uses
3:it’s one of the few good regression perks left
4:you can get the progress back on the gen
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Exactly. At correct moment, each perk can give an extra kill for killers or save life for survivors
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You're ignoring the numerous downsides that balance the perk. There's a timer on it and kicking gens puts most killers at a disadvantage. The number of games you actually get great value out of Pop is much smaller than you'd think.
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