Do you agree with Otz's Problematic Perks List?

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MikaelaWantsYourBoon
MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564
edited October 2023 in General Discussions

Otz just made new video about problematic perks and there is list.

I am asking to community if you agree with him or not. There is perk list and video source:


Post edited by EQWashu on
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Comments

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,403
    edited October 2023
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    Partially agree. I disliked when they changed NWO for instance for basically guaranteeing a death in the 1v1. Stuff like insidious and knockout will never be healthy in my mind. Boil over can never work with problematic map design. And power struggle makes way to many lose-lose scenarios. Some stuff like the off the record thing. I dont mind it keeps the other effects even with endurance gone. And some disadvantages he wanted to give would be a little to intricate.

    Post edited by supersonic853 on
  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,336
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    I think it's a pretty agreeable list, I can see why he'd have these opinions. Many of these parks are okay by themselves but facilitate really unhealthy plays when paired with other perks or killer powers or even just SWFs. And some of these perks are not okay at all in any context.

  • ARTRA
    ARTRA Member Posts: 911
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    Usually agree but this video have a few things that seems weird to me.

    Pantimento as problematic? Yeah 30% its strong dont get me wrong, for that survivors need to destroy a totem, you go light it but survivors KNOW where that totem is because it was broken a few moments ago.

    Face de darkness? I can understand that pig can use that in a mean way but no way that perk its problematic.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,606
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    I don't really agree with it, no.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
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    No disagree with everything except knock out and ultimate weapon, he didn't mention sloppy or franklin for me that's the definition of "unhealthy but no op" perks..

    he asks for OTR nerfs when it's the only anti tunnel perk still in the game, weird video

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,130
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    All hexes when broken will have a loud noise notification for survivors to see. Very rarely do you actually have to worry about survivors cleansing dulls for pentimento.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,336
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    I don't think it's reasonable to expect survivors to memorize where Hex Totems have been broken through a very vague notification system while they're in the middle of doing other things before they even know Pentimento is in play.

  • Evan_
    Evan_ Member Posts: 531
    edited October 2023
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    To be frank, watching the entire thing would have taken more effort than I wanted to dedicate, not to mention reflecting on even just the bits I have heard.

    So let me only pick my favorite: Rapid Brutality, the perk that barely sees play besides a few low-tier m1 killers like Doctor or Clown -BUT- it may going to be a problem in the future. If it gets buffed. Or if a high-tier m1 killer releases. M-kay. Let's envision hypothetical problems, and complain preemptively! How much more far-sighted that is than complaining about problems we currently have! Let's also nerf No Mither in case suddenly Twins become hip and meta!

    It makes me feel OTZ realized that he's popular enough that whatever he says will bring views and revenue, so he just talks whatever. I seriously don't even want to hear what he has to say about Shattered Hope. I'd rather like to remember him as the wise fellow who I got to know when I was a baby-killer.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,130
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    Keeping some map awareness is a key skill for survivors. Having the general idea of where totems where incase pentimento is in play is not asking for a lot.

  • tjt85
    tjt85 Member Posts: 750
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    I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on all of those perks, but Knockout I agree with for sure. Only ever seen Killers slug but never hook when using this perk. Can end a match very quickly.

    Adrenaline is also potentially kinda horrible to play against. I once saw 4 Adrenalines pop at once while playing as Legion. If I saw this in every game, I'd run NOED and I hate NOED. Just spirit crushing, really.

    I would maybe add a few to that list:

    Dark Devotion, maybe? Don't get me wrong, it's very funny to use (I love using it on my spooky killers like Sadako) but it's pure evil against a Solo Q team. Pretty uncommon too, so it's almost always going to confuse Survivors who face it (stopping them from unhooking, picking up slugs, etc).

    Sloppy Butcher is pretty nasty and demoralising to see. Virtually guarantees no heals ever and turns any basic attack Killer into a one hit Killer like Bubba for the rest of the game.

    I also think Lethal Pursuer is kinda unhealthy for the game, too. Speeds the game up way too much and when I suspect the Killer has it, I fully expect to earn 5-10k BP max. Usually means the Killer wants to end the game as quickly as possible. Maybe any perk that speeds the game up too much is problematic, to be honest.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,336
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    I seriously don't even wanna hear what he has to say about Shattered Hope.

    He says that because Boons aren't run anymore since Circle of Healing's nerf that it's a completely worthless perk when no one brings Boons (which is now often) so it has little to no reason to exist, and he suggests buffing it to be usable on Dull Totems for one-time aura reads but not synergize with Pentimento.

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685
    edited October 2023
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    I disagree with adrenaline. The perk is fine. The rest i dont care about

    Post edited by EmmaFrostyEyes on
  • Evan_
    Evan_ Member Posts: 531
    edited October 2023
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    Then it's nice to hear that only a single completely worthless perk remains in dbd.

    It would be really problematic if we managed to find some more.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,263
    edited October 2023
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    Here's mine

    Edit: I forgot to move deliver to feels bad

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 515
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    Nope.

    Just leave it alone, the more they remove the more predictable and boring this gets.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,889
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    The logic just seems unsound for the reasoning.

    If I were to broadly paint a brush over the concept of the video, is that the game functions with innate assumptions. Otz's claim (taken to the logical conclusion) is that all perks that change these innate assumptions are bad. That means We'll Make It and Resurgence are bad (by that same logic) because it halves the heal timeframe (Botany as well, but to a lesser extent). That means Enduring/Spirit Fury are bad because you are supposed to reach another major structure loop given a stun, and with Enduring they can't. Similar with Spirit Fury but this de-gods god pallets.

    If you go down the list, any perk worth anything changes the innate assumptions. UB allows slugs to pick themselves up, BBQ lets you know where distant Survivors are. All these innate assumptions fall apart with perk, and that is part of the charm of the game. Part of the game (at least to me) is to puzzle out the opposition's perks, and figure out how to outplay/counterplay those perks, while also doing the micro game of chase decisions and macro game of pallet drops and gen pops to outplay your opponent(s).


    A second broad brush concept is that perks design should encourage spreading the pressure, not tunneling. Well the problem there is there is no (direct) benefit to spread pressure, and insufficient penalties for targeting someone out early. Since anti-tunnel has been gutted, there is no threat of penalties for tunneling. Since there is no Devour Hook styled mechanic to keep Killers away from hook or BBQ styled spread hook rewards, Killers don't care and hook whoever.


    I would address anti-tunnel having teeth by buffing DS a separate way (Killer cannot use power for 5s per remaining gen, and allow for 2 uses), and including the current perk version as basekit. Also anti-tunnel endurance effects no longer cause Deep Wound. This means you could basekit BT into OTR into a Styptic or DH. This would be countered with removing collision on unhooked Survivors until they do a CA. That way a Killer can 'shoulder check' a potential bodyblocker, and if they phase through, the Killer can ignore them and know they are wasting their time.

    To encourage spreading hooks, I would reveal the aura of the lowest hooked Survivor for 5s after a hook, and no forms of aura block work while you are the least hooked Survivor (other than Sole Survivor). In the case of ties, the furthest Survivor is revealed. One caveat though is this new basekit effect would never reveal the last Survivor standing, but other effects still could. The Killer also gets a Devour Hope styled speedboost delayed after hook, but this haste ends early on chase/power use/or getting within 12m of a Survivor. This way normal M1 Killers can crossmap safer, but already mobile Killers don't get anything on top of that.

    A final idea is to give the 'Ruin treatment' to all gen slowdown perks (and we could honestly buff Ruin back up to 200%). By that I mean all regression/gen slowdown perks are less effective the fewer Survivors alive there are. This could be as harsh as a dead perk after a kill like current Ruin, or something like half as effective after a kill. Pop would regress 15% current after a kill instead of 30% current from Live, and Deadlock lasts 15s instead of live's 30s. This way you take gen slowdown perks because you want them to function while all 4 Survivors are alive, and it wouldn't be possible to giga-regress gens AND turbo-tunnel someone out at the same time. You could bring all lethality perks and not be perk punished by tunneling people out, but gen regression is reduced. You could also 8 hook safely while maintaining all regression perks, then have a final sprint of killing all the Survivors. I would recommend full effectiveness at 4 Survs, half at 3, and dead perk slots at 2 Survs, but if they wanted to especially encourage spreading the pressure the perk slots could be dead at 3 Survs. Making the perk slot dead at 3 would help further against the proxy camp to prevent all unhooks (or the anti-facecamp Kobe system), but I wouldn't recommend this until(/if) we have an epidemic of this new level of 'facecampers' to necessitate such a change.

  • FrenchBagels
    FrenchBagels Member Posts: 174
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    I’ve always hated Pentimento because it completely invalidates most builds a survivor has that are totem related.

    I used to run Inner Healing 24/7. Was great. Then Pentimento/Plaything became a thing and I realized that they don’t want us touching totems ever unless Devour Hope is in the mix.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,305
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    Doesn't Pentimento just give you more charges of Inner Healing? I'd probably be pretty happy to see Pentimento in a match where I'm running Inner Healing.

  • XshyguyX
    XshyguyX Applicant Posts: 107
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    Literally witnessed buckle up/for the people combo last week in a swf squad. Wow. It really is strong. You have to tunnel someone out to survive the match. Otherwise free endurance for all.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,305
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    Eh, if you're the one who cleansed the totem to begin with, it's only slowing the gens down for as long as it takes to get back over there and cleanse it again.

    If you aren't the one who cleansed it, that's great too, it means that totem wasn't stolen from you.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,387
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    Imo, pentimento was kept in check by boons. You could play around the perk by blessing the (probably plaything) hex totem without activating pentimento.

    But now that boons have effectively been deleted, there's nothing to counterbalance the perk, and arguably the strongest, most desired effect only takes one stack.

  • IlliterateGenocide
    IlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 6,001
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    Yes but its reasonable to expect survivors to know general totem placement, against newer survivors sure this is a problem. but then thats a matchmaking problem not a pentimento problem

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,671
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    I haven't watched the video, yet.

    What was negative about it?

  • ShinySilverfish
    ShinySilverfish Member Posts: 29
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  • lav3
    lav3 Member Posts: 758
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    No. I never thought Pentimento was a problematic perk.

    Also I expected to see Resilience and Deja-Vu in any of unhealthy lines but not in any categories?

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,263
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    It was a mistake, didn't realize i put it in the pool twice

  • OnryosTapeRentals
    OnryosTapeRentals Member Posts: 788
    edited October 2023
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    Don’t get me wrong, I like Otzdarva — he’s one of the few DbD content creators I actually watch.

    But this list is way off base.

    There’s a few genuinely problematic perks here, but most are fine and his rework ideas would just completely gut them…

  • KolbyKolbyKolby
    KolbyKolbyKolby Member Posts: 608
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    I'm not going to subject myself to watching an Otz video, can someone tell me how Plot Twist and Deadlock are bugged? They have seemed fine all instabnces I've seen lately

  • OnryosTapeRentals
    OnryosTapeRentals Member Posts: 788
    edited October 2023
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    • Generators blocked by Deadlock can still lose progress from Pain Resonance.
    • Activating Plot Twist while holding the Lament Configuration will instantly solve it.
  • Kius
    Kius Member Posts: 140
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    The fact that this guy wants to see pentimento nerfed (one of the last few hexes on a decent state but needs pre work before that and a build supporting it) makes it kinda of a joke.. even if the player has 10k+ hours. STBFL and NWO is no where near close to usage.

    This kind of videos and tier lists are a massive red flag specially coming from a big YT such as his.. dev's could be already on the way to nerf pentimento or hell even coup de grace for all we know after watching a video like this..

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,728
    edited October 2023
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    Mostly agree, but instant damage perks like PR should absolutely damage blocked gens. PR is only 4 times a game AND it can literally get 0 or subpar use if the highest gen is below the max PR hit percentage. On top of that, experienced survivors just 99 a far corner gen to eat every PR anyway. If a blocked gen stopped instant hit perks, then survivors could simply use Alliance to nullify every single PR token use and make it do 0%. I feel he's completely off-base when saying PR should give 0% for its token if a gen is blocked. It also means the killer would be punished for ever using other gen blocking perks.

This discussion has been closed.