BUFF IRON WILL
Comments
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How is it a bad design, it is a consequence of the only functionality old IW provided. IW had no other aspect than make you silent.
If you assume a killer should always be aware of the location of the survivor they are chasing, then yes that would be a correct statement, but where does this requirement even come from, could you elaborate on it?
I don't like the notion where we fabricate statements out of our own preferences then expect everyone to meet that standard, and it is now somehow part of the discussion. Its a 50/50 so what, you dont like it, but that does not make that a valid point others now have to refute. How about you back it up first with something more tangible.
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Yeah, 100% Iron Will had no other benefit rather than being quiet.
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Here it comes the guy who advocates in favor of tunneling in this forum.
If you are not able to track survivors by following the blood, that’s a skill issue. There are many perks to support tracking for survivors that are not used because your basically don’t need them in the current state of DBD perks for survivors. Making Iron Will 100% will still make possible for killers to counter it with already available perks if they struggle to track survivors.
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Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't say anything about tunneling. Not even remotely. I suggest you actually the read the post before you say things like: "I am advocating for tunneling." I don't think you saw me advocating in favor of tunneling anywhere. I'd be happy, if tunneling was obsolete. But it isn't. And as long as that's the case, killers will continue to tunnel. Especially, when survivors don't use any anti-tunnel perks. But that is material for a different discussion.
The tracking part of Iron Will is only relevant outside of chase and when it comes to mind games. It won't help you escape chase just like that. But you suggested, that the killer should have to use perks just so they don't lose the survivor they chase. This is not how this game works and it never has been. If it did, then we'd have a real problem.
What tracking perks are there, that killers don't use but aren't incredibly bad? Don't get me started on Bloodhound and Predator. Both of these perks are literally useless. They don't do anything beneficial for you. Then there is Stridor. Which is somewhat alright but mostly unnecessary. No, turning Iron Will back to 100% will not make Stridor any more useful. Iron Will counters Stridor, not the other way around. So what tracking perks are there, that aren't used? I really can't think of a single example.
Aura perks hardly qualify. The killer can't reliably use them to keep track of survivors during chase.
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Survivors are not able to you which killer they are going against, not are they able to know your perks. So, your argumentation is somehow flawed.
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I did not quote the wrong post. I know you from your previous posts about tunneling, that’s why I said what I said.
Also, survivors don’t bring up anti tunneling perks because they are very easily counterable and Decisive Strike is not as much effective as before.
Second, I was responding to other posts talking about the ways to counter 100 Iron Will. There are plenty of perks that can be used inside and outside of chase. If you need something useful in both scenarios, there is Bloodhound, which many killers did not use because they preferred to invest on Slowdown perks like Pop, Ruin, Jolt, etc. If you need an extra help, there are a lot of aura reading perks at the moment (nowhere to hide, bbq, hex face the darkness, etc). It is not that much hard to track survivors that have 100% Iron Will because once you have an idea of their location, your can pretty much rely on blood trails and scratch marks.
Also, as I stated in my numerous replies before this one to you, my main killer was Clown and I did not have any problems with Iron Will players. The main problem before 6.1.0 was old dead hard.
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Iron will was popular in combination with dh. It made looping pretty easy on the survivor end. If you can't see the killer : run away with iron will. Killer will never know.
If the killer sees you: dh for distance.
That made chases very long, unfun for the killer role and therefore pretty problematic.
Iron will was not problematic when used for Stealth. It was problematic when used in chase.
You wanna know what's funny? I never have to search for survivors.
They are always in my face. Do I force them to do that? No. They do that on their own. Why? Because it's the most efficient playstyle.
Stealth was never the best way to play dbd. Aggressive plays are (sadly) the best options on both sides.
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A 3 seconds DS is much better than no DS at all. And OTR hasn't changed since 6.1.0. Still, both of these perks aren't used anymore. Can't say I'm surprised that so many people complain about tunneling now. They make themselves vulnerable and wonder why their opponent capitalises on that. The only ways to counter these perks is to not tunnel. And if you don't get tunneled, isn't that good?
Bloodhound does not counter Iron Will. Do you even know what these perks do? First you brought up Beast of Prey and now Bloodhound. Both are terrible and don't provide any beneficial effect. Who cares, if the blood is a bit brighter? You still can't see the blood through walls, so it doesn't help when you try to mind game. Which is exactly what Iron Will makes less effective. Bloodhound has absolutely no purpose. There is no situation where Bloodhound would provide any value. You see the blood anyway. And if you don't, then Bloodhound won't help you either. The reason no killer runs it is because it's useless. You might as well use nothing at all.
Reading through your post, I am convinced you didn't read mine. Let me repeat it for you: Iron Will makes mind gaming a lot harder because you cannot hear the survivor to get an idea of their location behind line of sight blockers. This also allows you to leave the loop at just the right moment, so that you make a lot of distance on the killer because they didn't notice that you left. They don't lose you. They just have no way to tell where you are as soon as they can't see you directly. It also allows you to hide in certain spots while you are injured. If you do it right, that all but guarantees you escape chase with nothing the killer can do (other than Oni).
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Shouldn't they take a look at survivor volume instead?
So you don't have extreme difference like Ace vs Jeff for example.
If I remember correctly they were planning on doing it, but looks like they gave up on it for some reason.
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Gotta veto the "Bloodhound is useless"/"might as well use nothing at all" claim.
Yes it's a very underwhelming perk, but it's not nearly as bad as Beast of Prey or Predator, which are indeed useless / detrimental:
It not only makes the blood brighter, which can help alot in some maps with hard to see scratches and blood (most notably Borgo, but coldwind maps as well). It also makes blood pools stay 4 seconds longer, which is alot. It's the only perk that reliably allows you to drop a chase for some seconds (e.g. for applying pop on a gen) and resume with the chase afterwards, bc the perk will effectively navigate you to the injured survivor. With hemo effect (->Sloppy), thats even easier blood tracing. Survivors will think you left them, only for you to pop out seconds later (best with stealth killers).
So again, yes the perk is weak, but with the right playstyle, you can make it work / give you value. Thats far more than you can say about the other worst-perk contenders like Beast of Prey, Predator or Territorial.
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Ok. This particular 50/50 is bad because it reduces skillful interactions at tiles(the most skillful part of the game) and allows for W the least skillful/interactive thing a survivor can do. Running to long wall for example and vaulting, then Wing as the killer attempts any midgame on a strong tile is just dumb. Directional audio isn't even that great through walls in this game, just an indicator the survivor is there. Even now IW is still a good perk that synergizes with the mft build and does it's job good still, it's just not broken to the point of making you infinitely more quite while injured than when healthy.
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i would only agree with removing the exaustion downside it should not go back to 100% .
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Again, 100% Iron Will would address the character inequality that exists in this game in which some are louder than others. Making all them silent during while injured is a healthy balancing measurement to address this issue.
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No, it should bring back to 100% silence. Devs had more than 7 years to address character differences in volume, but they didn’t and likely they won’t. A quick and effective solution is to apply this change in order to make the game more diverse and balanced for people who play certain characters.
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That’s right on point, sir. Old legion could use the bloodhound to search for survivors even with iron will 100%. So, they are just trying to gaslight us with false statements telling that these perks did not have a use before 6.1.0
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I understand your point, but if I further discuss about this, we will deviate the main focus of this discussion, that is buffing Iron Will.
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Again, 100% Iron Will was a great and healthy perk that was used for years without too much complaints besides spirit mains before their nerf.
Iron Will is supposed to be a stealth perk that is versatile in chase and outside chase. That’s why it is not disabled during a chase. However, because of the meta shake up done in 6.1.0 many good and great perks were nerfed to the ground to the point of not being useful anymore.
75% Iron Will is a a huge pile of garbage because characters that have loud moans of pain will still be louder than others (like Jane, Bill, Cheryl, Sheeva, Jill, etc). A killer with a dollar tree headset can still hear then with this perk during and outside chases. That’s why this perk is beyond useless.
Also, as per my last replies, I used to play before 6.1.0 and I have never had an single issue with Iron Will, in fact, that was the least hated perk for me during my gameplays. I used to be more annoyed by bully squads with head on and flashlights than someone using a stealth perk.
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“A 3 seconds DS is much better than no DS at all.” What a terrible statement. Do you actually think that people should be happy with the actual situation of that perk? It is just 1.5 seconds to reach a safe area. 1.5 seconds… Almost all killers can counter this without any significant punishment. That’s the reason why people don’t use it anymore. Also, only players that tunnel used have a problem with this perk after the conspicuous action rework. However, they changed anyway and killer the perk in the same way they did with Iron Will. They wanted to increase the number of kills for killers by doing such changes, by reducing the resources available for survivor to actually play the game. Last change was with Medkits and Prove Thyself, now both of them are incredible underwhelming, what forces survivors to be injured most of the time (instead of trying to heal in a fast time) and trying to genrush individually.
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You don't balance survivors between each other...
you balance survivors vs killer and there is iron will 100% not ok.
I would be fine with removing exhaustion part, but 100% just shouldn't get back. Mainly because it didn't silence just pain grunts. It might be fine if they fix that, but seems like they can't for some reason.
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Back then the killers chase music and survivors footsteps were balanced way better, you could actually hear survivors footsteps in a chase. But in the state the of the game rn I agree.
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Iron will is still amazing on quiet characters. Ace is basicly 100% quiet.
I think it's more a problem of some survivor being too loud and some being too quiet.
That was something the devs wanted to look into if I'm not mistaken.
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I never said that you should be happy about the 3 seconds DS. I said it's much better than no DS at all. Which is true. If you are getting tunneled by a Wraith, then the 3 seconds DS will do its job just fine. The same can't be said for Nurse and Blight but really, they would get you killed even with a 5 seconds DS.
Your math is wrong by the way. It's not 1.5 seconds. Your stagger time depends on the fall height. Which differs between killers. Since we don't have any accurate information (as far as I am aware) how exactly this works for different killers, I will assume that survivors have indeed a 1.5 seconds stagger time, which implies a 3.75 metres fall height (much higher than would be the case for most killers). However, this does not mean, that you stand still for 1.5 seconds. It takes 0.375 seconds until the survivor starts moving again and then another 1.125 seconds until they reach their normal speed. In that time they accelerate evenly, which means they make 2.25 metres of distance additional to the 6 metres of distance they get in the remaining 1.5 seconds, which equals a total of 8.25 metres of distance. This is enough against most killers as it takes about 8 seconds (didn't calculate the exact time) until the killer has a chance to hit you with a lunge. This would allow you to run 32 metres. You are going to get to another good loop. A killer that isn't ranged or has a mechanic to catch up super quick and hit you again, will still be heavily affected.
You're also wrong about why people don't use it anymore. Not because it's bad. But because there are better perks. Why don't more people use Balanced Landing, Knockout, Vigil and Floods of Rage? These perks aren't bad. But there are perks, that are just better.
DS affected killers that didn't tunnel way worse than killers, who did tunnel. If I am tunneling, then you can't stop me even with a 10 seconds DS. You will die and after that, your team will fall. But if I'm not tunneling, then being forced ignore a survivor that runs up to me and bodyblocks for someone else because they know I can't pick them up hurts. The same goes for people that would run up to me trying to get in my way and blind me only to jump into a locker when I get close to them.
The part about why DS and Iron Will were nerfed is also incorrect. They were nerfed because they had been meta perks for years and 6.1.0 had the main purpose of changing the meta. The kill rates were inflated by many survivors throwing a temper tantrum and killing themselves on hook as well as the base kit buffs. Prove Thyself increased the survivor efficiency too much and needed a nerf. Medkits were nerfed because they were undoubtably too strong. A survivor should not be able to heal themself 4 times with a medkit in less than 10 seconds (in combination with Built To Last) and then have a Syringe or Styptic Agent on top of it. We had a literal spam healing meta where survivors would heal so fast and so often, that killers were forced to overcommit to bad chases because injuring someone was not worth any time investment at all. Killers needed a down or they wouldn't get any pressure. Now we're in a meta were survivors are way stronger when they stay injured, thanks to MFT + Resilience. Medkits are still very decent items. The ability to heal yourself in a timely manner will always remain good.
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Yeah, they did wanted to check it up, but they never did. So, I propose a easier solution that can fix the problem.
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But that's just a band aid fix for something that needs to be looked at.
Band aid fixes more often than not make things worse.
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not a all. That’s has been the case for more than 6 years of the game, and nobody complained about it. They just wanted to increase the number of kills by making a bunch of survivor perks useless. Iron Will is not an exception from this crusade.
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That's very one sided.
First: killer perks got nuked as well.
Also, we see how problematic ban aid fixes are when we look at basekit bt. Instead of making killers be rewarded for hooking different survivors and going for many hooks, they only made it harder to tunnel. Encouraging tunneling in the process.
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When they nerfed IW I made a post about how bad this change is for certain characters as not all characters have the same volume when injured.
The Devs said that they want to level out all the screams, but they didn't so far....
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THIS! That’s why it is useless to run this perk for loud characters. I stopped playing Laurie Strode bc she can be heard across the map. They need to bring it back again to what it was or make survivors almost completely silent without exhaustion feature to make the perk universally useful for all characters.
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that’s how balancing works. Kill rates are above 55% while escape rates are below 50%. When one side is over performing, the other should receive some attention.
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Do we know the kill rates right now?
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As a Jeff Main, I have learned to live with it. But I wish they would finally do something.
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Yeah. I mean, I want to play bill, Jane, Laurie, Jeff, etc. but they are too much loud!
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I don’t remember the last time they showed us right now. I need to check it up. Could you help me search for it? I remember that the last time I checked, the kill rates were above 55% and survivor rates were lower than 50%
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Kill rates are extremely misleading and require significant game knowledge to interpret correctly.
For example, last years killrates would lead anyone to believe nurse is the weakest killer in the game, yet anyone with basic game knowledge knows that nurse has a steep learning curve and as such the lower mmr players are tanking nurses real killrates.
A better metric would be the number of gens done.
While a 4k at 5 gens and a 4k a 0 gens *look the same* they are fundamentally different matches.
The ideal balance state would be an average of 4 gens popped per trial, a good match for both sides that came down to the wire, with everyone coming out with 15k+ bp.
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The last time I remember getting kill rates from BHVR is after 6.1 which was over a year ago.
Could be wrong though.
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From what time is this graphic?
Oh... Sorry..... Me dumb....
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Unless you’ve forgotten, killers play in first person, they can’t look around corners without actually looking, they can’t mind game the same way as survivors. Audio cues are a needed part of the game, as scratch marks can be altered and unreliable, if audio was a factor survivors could and would just run away from loops and you’d have no counter until it was too late. Mind gaming is only possible when you can hear, otherwise it’s a complete guess.
It wasn’t balanced by any means, and at best was trying to fix an issue some survivors being louder than others, which will be addressed later as stated by the devs. Oh and footsteps are not a viable argument as chase music is usually enough to cover that up.
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I think they should also balance survivor audio. I play Sheva because most of the other survivors injured sounds give me a migraine and then I've got to turn off the game.
When I'm injured with her I don't even realize it heh.
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This is an opinion on how it helped killers to nerf it, and yes it is correct from that point of view, it simply is not a strong enough argument to make it a decisive result. It is just as easy to argue that was the point of the perk for several years and it was just fine.
So let me give an argument along the same lines:
Unless you've forgotten survivors need more options to play the game other than just running in loops whenever spotted, and some of them might want to elect a perk setup before entering a game that gives them other choices of losing a killer. Otherwise their only options are looping them until caught or until the killer gives up on them, whichever comes first, which leads to monotone, repetitive, and boring games. It is also providing some cover to survivors who are injured for a long time because for whatever reasons in that match had no option to heal up and want to keep a low profile while trying to survive or move around.
Seems like a solid reasoning right? It has the condescening, lecturing start, then it offers a perspective and some argument that leans into being anecdotical but still easy to follow along and feel like there is some truth in it.
Sadly, i'm too cynical, and my suspicion for the nerf was nothing like this, they simply wanted to give room for new perks that offer complete silence while injured but only conditionally and in a temporary manner, like the new Lucky Star perk.
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