STOP GENRUSH!!! Enough of favoring the role of survs!!
Comments
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So... what other objectives would the killer have?
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Is it possible y'all could stop being so competitive? Maybe that would help the toxic feelings you all get from the game.
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Since the big med kit nerf, toolboxes are really the only viable item to use now. Keys have been gutted for a long time and maps are useful for very specific objectives.
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So you are in the "we should balance the game around average players" camp?
When are we going to see nurse buffs then?
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I think you're missing the point.
You're free to chase, down and hook survivors. You're still progressing your objective even if you're hooking Mikaela after you just hooked Nea. You don't need to drop chase to immediately go back to Nea and ignore literally everyone else just so you can kill Nea in record time.
Just like you don't need to bring stacked toolboxes, BNPs and genrush perks.
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Poor killers. Survivors have been literally nerfed constantly since the game came out and it's still not enough.
Don't worry, at the rate we are going your wish will be granted and everyone will start the trial with their legs broken.
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I understood your reply to me and what you meant but they still aren't %100 comparable like others said. Because yes, sacrificing survivors is the Killer's objective just as much as doing gens is Survivor's objective. But in your reply you implied using certain strategies to sacrifice survivors efficiently makes others complain. Tunneling and camping are strategies. Simply doing a gen isn't really a strategy. It's just doing your objective. But this is kinda nitpicky I still got what you meant by the comparison.😇
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Ok i´ll rephrase. Current meta is to run MfT. Which only works while injured. So many survivors stack it with Resilience and prefer to push gens while injured. Even when they don´t bring a toolbox with BNP, this is still something that could be considered gen rushing. As they don´t use the chance to heal themselves/each other, but prefer to do gens.
Now the killer comes around, maybe chasing someone who isn´t injured yet and sees the injured survivor doing gens. Smart move is to switch target and go for the injured survivor. NOW said survivor will complain after the match, that the killer is tunneling. When all he did was playing more efficiently by going for the weakest link.
The survivor can not, will not see the mistake he made. But instead complain about the killer. When both played objectively efficient and pursued their only objective.
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See message above.
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If survivors "only" do gens, they will lose the match unless the killer is terrible. I've watched it happen from both sides.
As a solo cue survivor seen a teammate refuse to leave their gen when two people are hooked and I'm in chase with the survivor. I pull them away from the hooks but nope... other survivor plays gen simulator.
As a killer, had people die on first hook because I'm chasing someone and the other two want to pop their gens.
Real gen rush takes a group effort and a great looper.
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Nah, rushing gens doesn´t take much effort. You can see who is doing gens and who is wasting time on the HUD.
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Both can be done out of spite
Survivors doing it how ever mainly affects their fellow teammates
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lmao all good brother
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I can really see it:
"hey you on the hook! *insert angry rant* I´m gonna do this gen!"
All jokes aside. I´ve seen survivors complete gens while 2 were hooked and not even in the basement... They really must have hated each other.
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What exactly made you assume that? Because even a good survivor will have a hell of a hard time with 8% less speed... for example.
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this line
I mean even Team Eternal took quite some time to break the 3 gen in the showmatch and it was almost a 1 hour long match, all while being a comp team with coms and arguably the best dbd players around.Implies that you think that we shouldn't balance around what comp teams can do. Because you said that SM was "problematic" despite the fact that said team was able to beat her.
So question then.
Should the game be balanced around the highest level players? Or the average ones?
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I'm starting to find it incredibly hard to believe that killers still think applying pressure on survivors is still hard in this day and age. When does it come to a point that your level of skill finally becomes a factor in to you losing matches?
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That's a strawman, bud.
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My man, they played not against a comp player playing skull merchant but some random guy with like 1 k hours, and you are seriously telling me that in a somewhat balanced game some random player that kicks gens for an hour should be able to beat the best comp team in the world? Or at least stall for them for this amount of time? In the end it is not even necessarily about them still winning in the end but the fact that the game lasted that long... Also nobody wants to balance around comp level of DBD, that's not even a question, but there is still a difference between experienced/good/really good players and comp players.
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They should take both into account, doesn't have to be one or the other
A killer can also be changed quite significantly at the higher level while barely having an effect on the lower level. Great example of this are the Nemesis changes a while back which buffed his movement speed in tier 3 while holding his tentacle, but nerfed Marvin's Blood. These changes were still impactful at the top level but barely had an effect at the bottom level which is exactly what you want. Newer players don't necessarily care about balance, nor do they understand it.
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Please answer the question.
- Should the game be balanced around high level players
- Should the game be balanced around average skill players
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The problem is you cannot really go for one of them only, depending on how much bigger the impact on other levels of players is you need to correct things. So the goal should be the most balanced results for players of all skill levels combined.
The problem is if you only balance for really good players you might make it harder for worse players or even for beginners.
If you only balance for the average players you might impact better or worse players much more then intended.
And lastly balancing for completely new players is always hard because those guys have no clue what they are doing but you also don't want to make it so getting started in the game is too hard because then people will just stop playing...
So in that sense your question already makes it seem like you don't understand the problem. Even games like Starcraft 2 and Dota take into account the effects balancing changes have on different skilled groups of players, and those are not asymmetrical games which makes the whole thing even harder, because at least there both sides can use the broken stuff. So no we don't balance for only one group of players, we try to make the game overall more balanced... It is fairly simple isn't it?
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The problem is if you only balance for really good players you might make it harder for worse players or even for beginners.
This is incorrect. There are things that can be done that actually can nerf survivors at a high level without hurting low level survivor players. As well as nerfing killers at a lower level without hurting high level gameplay.
Here is a video that explains the concept for TF2.. Specifically i timestamped the point where the person talks about the B.A.S.E. Jumper item. Yes, this is not for DBD it is for another game, but the concept transfers over as well.
BHVR also has done this before, and done it WELL. The old Ruin, and i mean the old old ruin. You remember the one?
This version of ruin was a NIGHTMARE for low skill survivors. These survivors can barely even hit skill checks at all, let alone forcing them to hit a GREAT skill check or lose 5% progress on the gen. This led to a meta where those of us (i say us because at the time i was one of them) couldn't actually do gens when ruin was up and instead we "gen tapped" to make sure we didn't get skill checks because we just couldn't do them.
However, in high level play, this version of ruin wasn't really that big of a deal. High level survivors pretty much memorized most totem spawn locations and logic, so they could usually find it within a minute or 2 of the match starting, and even if they didn't, they could easily hit great skill checks all the time, meaning that the value of this was heavily lost at high level play.
Enter patch 3.5.0 which change ruin, and for the better.
This version of ruin was actually really good against high level survivors, because, in theory, high level survivors are going against high level killers. And now the killers could use ruin in order to pressure survivors off of gens and actually get significant use out of the perk. It wasn't much long where we got undying as well, which helped against these players memorizing the totem spots.
However, in low level survivor gameplay, the killers weren't as good, and they weren't able to pressure multiple survivors to get so much value out of the perk.
So, there are plenty of things you could do to nerf survivors at a high level. For example, and i'm not saying they should do this, BUT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE:
Imagine a world where shack was nerfed. What would this do? Currently, really skilled survivors can waste 30 seconds or more (if the killer tries to mindgame) of a killer's time at shack before the pallet is dropped. But what are low level survivors doing? They are predropping the pallet, and getting hit anyway. So if you nerfed shack, to maybe be more like say, the dead dog one, where it is a much more balanced mindgameable loop. Or you made it so you can't see through the shack anymore, making actual mindgames possible. Then this wouldn't hurt the low level players, because they are busy predropping the pallet anyway, and the killers they are playing against aren't employing complicated mindgames.
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Not a strawman. Happens all the time. My teammates prefer to finish a gen before even considering healing/getting healed. All run MfT. But when the killer dares to go for them, while they sit on a gen, then they often dc/suicide. Only to stay until after the match and complain about the toxic killer.
Of course, thats only my personal experience on my server/region/mmr. If you get teammates that heal before finishing gens and don´t dc/suicide, then good for you!
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Preach it!
The healthiest slowdown combo we ever had, was Undying Ruin. It didn´t affect survivors that just did gens and only benefited killers that constantly switched targets. I´ll never understand how the community was so against it.
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It's still a strawman. You're picking an argument that I never made to fight against.
Ruin was incredibly impactful, as a hex should be, but Undying could remove the risk of a hex entirely. Ruin having to be cleansed 4 times was overpowered, so Undying got cut back.
From my experience, if someone was on the hook before Ruin was found, the game was already over and the killer had won. Imagine having to find it four times over.
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Its like people don´t understand what Ruin does. Ruin ONLY worked when no one was sitting on a gen. You could entirely ignore it and didn´t had to cleanse it 4 times.
Also, its a 4vs1 game. Even IF survivors had to cleanse it, it wasn´t exactly a monster task to cleanse 1 or 2 totems per match. Which still was totally voluntary, as Ruin had no effect on gens that are being worked on.
Furthermore, the 200% regression was 1/2 of what a single survivor would have taken to repair a gen.
Survivors are constantly complaining about camping and tunneling. Guess what a killer that constantly has to move beetween gens, to get survivors off the gens, isn´t doing...
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Ruin undying tinkerer was so boring I'm sorry. It was a copy paste build and every single game was the same killer build. At least we have some diversity now even when it comes to gen perks.
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You mean like the survivor meta that has been stale for years?
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Yes? And that's why it got changed too?
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Oh yeah: Lithe, SB, SC, DH, Adrenaline... So much variety over the last 5 years. Yet they are still in the top 10 most used survivor perks.
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The problem with this version of ruin in combination with undying is something else, it took so long to cleanse/find the totems that the most efficient strategy was just to power through it, which most survivors couldn't do because of way shorter chase time... So even this version was problematic on different skill levels (not because of ruin itself but because of undying in its first version).
Also I don't think there are many survivors these days that don't know how to loop shack and just predrop the pallet ^^
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Lithe and self-care meta 😍
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Only Adrenaline, DH are 2nd chance, SB really help when do Gen in deadzone but still easier to deal against DH.
Lithe for me is never 2nd chance perk
- If you hit survivor when they vault, you hit/down them with or without Lithe.
- If you dont hit survivor when they vault, they will be on the other side of the wall, with or without Lithe.
Lithe is more like giving me a small break mid chase to think what I should do next. Lithe being the most used perk because Exhaustion is always a must for survivors, and it can be used on command without requiring skill as other 2 perks.
Gen perks seem fine currently, still 4 Gens but at least its not copy paste like Ruin/Un/Tinkere/Pop. Current survivor meta is needed a change.
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When I play Survivor role it's the most chill thing ever to do. Usually matches ends at 3-4 hooks from the Killer. I usually play duo or trio with friends. It's something wrong with it. I came back from 1 month break and I decided to play Made For This. This perk is braindead - everyone can use it and make insane value. Just press "W" and Killer can not do anything.
Most of Survivors don't play Killer role and they can not see how hard it is to play Killer at current state of Dead By Daylight.
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You are both missing the point.
Point is, that the killer meta is constantly changing, because survivors complain about boring to face combos. Devs nerf it and yet, the survivor meta hasn´t really changed in the last 5 years. At least according to the official stats.
Complaining about a boring meta on the other side, while the own meta doesn´t move is kinda...
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That's not really fair though, is it? There were also a bunch of busted Killers/Killer Perks that were left untouched for a long time. It goes both ways and it's still continuing.
Anyways I'm going to disengage from this discussion since it's an endless cycle of "but survivors have this, but killers have that" arguments that don't lead to anywhere. But I got your point and respect your opinion! Thanks for the discussion.😇
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Ruin can do all of that without 5 lives. People weren't protesting Ruin. They were protesting Undying.
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We had several changes in the survivor meta as well... We had the endurance meta where people tried to stack as many instances of endurance as possible, we had the healing meta where you tried to squeeze out like 3-5 heals out of a good medkit or heal in like 8 seconds. We had the CoH meta that kind of overlapped with those two. After that we have MDR meta/Buckle up for the people and with ultimate weapon calm spirit is apparently on the rise again.
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And yet, both were nerfed hard. Despite being healthy for the game.
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Oh i´m not denying that there have been some other contestants on the top 10 most used perks. But its certainly weird, how the meta hasn´t really changed a lot in all those years. Tbh, i also find it weird how BBQ is still on the list.
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If you don't consider that much of a change then we have even less of a change in the meta when it comes to killers, there we only have Pop, Ruin, Corrupt, Undying, Tinkerer, BBQ, Pain Rez, Lethal Pursuer, DMS and that's basically it (we could argue about jolt and sloppy but well). Maybe Ultimate weapon now. In the end all that changes is that people switch one game slowdown perk for another and maybe throw in some aura reading once in a while.. I would definitely say that the survivor meta went through more changes in the sense of what those different builds did.
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Half the survivor perks from the 6.1 meta change have been removed completely from the list. That was just over a year ago, so saying the meta has been stale for 'years' isn't true, at least for survivors
Iron will, DS, prove thyself, circle of healing, and BT no longer are even on the list. And with the exception of BT finally freeing up a perk slot, the others are gone because they got gutted as perks.
The killer meta list includes nowhere to hide, but the other 9 perks are all exactly the same, just maybe in a different order. So if anything is stale, it's the killer side. Although about 10 months of gen kick meta filled the gap where we have no stats, so even that shifted recently.
ETA: apparently spine chill was in the top 10 last October, not DS. My point still stands because DS was considered meta, even if not in the list, and spine chill was also nerfed into oblivion and removed from the list.
Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on6 -
Maybe ask yourself why the killer side hasnt changed much.
Survivor has maybe changed in perks but the core idea is still the same. Propably will be forever. Its still longer chases and faster gens. The only thing that vanished is anti tunneling. But thats because it literally gets added to the basekit.
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They've added a ton of new information and chase/utility perks, at least one of each per chapter for two years. Including Ultimate Weapon, which can be one of the strongest information perks right now on some killers.
Killer meta doesn't change because an awful lot of players run 4 slowdowns and then can't find survivors and can't close out chases quickly. Instead of improving at the game, they come to the forums and scream about gen times. There's literally no game where needing an hour to win (by default) is considered skilled gameplay, but that's what players seem to want since chess merchant and gen kick meta are what nearly all killer players are screaming for constantly.
It's 100% a problem of 'I've tried nothing and I'm out of ideas.'
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Killer meta was always slowdown. Why? Maps are too big. Gens, on a mathematical level go too fast, if survivors play smart. Only about 3 killers can more or less reliably play without slowdown. I play Pig. I used surge / jolt before 6.1. I use surge / jolt after 6.1. For me, nothing changed.
As you said, ultimate weapon is good on certain killers. As a 2k hour pig main, i disaprove this perk on her, despite what others say. Its good on stronger killers.
Try it on Freddy and tell me the insane value you get from it.
Sure, there will always some players that crutch on some perks on killer side. Same with survivor side. You cant tell me with a serious face that WoO is only used to learn maps for example.
Also what previous perks on killer are amazing? Leverage? Genetic limits? Most of the released perks are also meh to very situational. Rapid brutality is a good example. Only good on killers that rarely build up bloodlust to begin with and hit with m1. So..... Clown, Doc, Slinger, ..... maybe spirit? There are maybe some i forgot.
Killer will almost always be slowdown and survivor will almost always be faster gens and longer chases.
A fix would be a in game slowdown mechanic for the killer that rewards for multible seperate hook stages. But that is hard to implement.
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Ruin, Undying and TInkerer aren´t on the list of the top 10 most used killer perks though. Which is why i brought said combo up.
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Windows is a great solo perk as well to know which pallets have already been used... You may know the map already, but you won't get that information.
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Not currently of course, but before they changed all of them... If we are looking at a bigger time windows then it would have been in for sure, bc literally everyone ran it on all killers...
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Killers will always say gens go too fast. We heard it even during the CoBruption meta when killers could force every game to go 30 minutes to an hour.
'Gen speed' is the popular outcry for two main reasons: it's easier than admitting you aren't there literal best killer in the game, and the devs seem to consistently make the mistake of listening to killers, so everyone is convinced of they ######### loud and often enough that they'll do it again.
First it was 'gen times', which was increased in 6.1 by request.
Then it was 'dead hard and DS' buy too much time. So they were gutted. Dead hard is such a popular excuse this happened twice.
Then it was 'healing is too strong' and thus medkits and circle were deleted.
Then it was 'prove thyself and BNP are OP' until those were deleted too.
Now we're back to generic 'gen times to fast'.
Seeing a pattern? The only thing most killers haven't considered is their own gameplay. Slap on 4 slowdowns, kick every gen, and wander blindly around the map looking for survivors. Then when you finally get a down 3 minutes into the game, but 2 gens have popped, you come over here and scream about gen times because you think it's been 45 seconds.
Literally any excuse to avoid the thought that you could improve your gameplay in any way. And why should you? Just complain on the forums loud enough and you'll probably get the nerfs you want. Those nerfs won't matter, because A) that wasn't the issue the whole time, and B) you'll just continue moving the goal post every time this happens.
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