Too many hooks
Just too many hooks
Comments
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There needs to be a lot of hooks, because the killer's main way to kill survivors is by hooking them.
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Sure. But why are we even having sabo mechanics in the game at this point? There's no more point to it if devs decide it's good idea to have a hook every 8m. Sabotaging at this point is pure bait on survivors to take meaningless perks that don't do anything, because even successful sabo results in hook. It's like having successful flashlight save that has 90% chance of not doing anything, because it's good idea to basekit give intermittent lightborn for 4 out of every 5s.
Every map rework goes waaay overboard with hook density. I know many people don't care, because not that many people play sabo, but given current situation they should remove the mechanics, because it's just bait
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Less hooks means more slugging. If that's what you really want...
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Remove sabotages. They are now meaningless. Why keep the mechanics in current broken form?
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You can't have the game setup to be easy to score gens, but hard to score hooks.
With gens being as fast as they are, one successful sabotage can ruin the killer's shot at winning. It might feel really good when you succeed at sabotage, but it can't be made easier, not with gen times being what they currently are.
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But you don't get it. If you get new map, you don't have to ever think about sabotages ever any more. They are now impossible. Even perfect sabotage with breakout and taking hit is not enough, because you will still have ample time to just go to next hook.
Sabotage mechanics is just pure bait at this point. The best use case you can get (if you are lucky with hook spawns) is to deny scourge hook. But you will never deny hook altogether.
Developers are really mean with this one. On one hand they buff saboteur and bg player with increasing wiggle progress with breakout and on the other hand they make sabo saves impossible with hook density. Like what is this stupid thing?
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The Raccoon City Police and the midwich have 14 hooks, but almost 9 or 10 on other maps (revealed in volunteers).
Is this the theory that the number of hooks is large? many? Really?
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Count hook density on saloon, midwitch, new rancid abbatoir or new mac millans. As I said already - sabotages with new remakes (I wonder about shttered square, but given the trend I expect it to have also hook every 5m) of maps make sabotages pure survivor bait. Try it out in customs. I am sure you will conveniently be able to go around 3 hooks without any worries - and 3 hooks means sabotages are meaningless
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saloon 9 (at most 11)
midwitch 14 (If it is divided between the upper and lower layers, if one layer is 7)
new rancid abbatoir 10 (at most 11)
macmillan estate 10 (at most 12)
Counted it. So?
Please tell me why hooks exist every 5m.
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Killers need hooks. I think it's fair. When he downed a survivor he should get the hook. There's no need to play break out or boil over (cuz the killer will still be able to hook) and I think that's fine. It's not the intention of the game to make wiggle off and Bodyblock easy for survivors. You should accept when the killer got you.
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Hooks do exist every few meters. Do you realize what 14 hooks on Midwitch with it's 7000 square meters means? What 9 hooks on saloon with 8700 square meter means? That hooks are never directly in the corner? That wiggle time is 16s which means killer can walk for 59m (covering about 10886 square meters of map if we disregard obstacles and map edges). New MacMillans are also tiny so if it's really 10, 11 or 12 hooks, it still means you have "unlimited" access to most of the hooks.
I will say it again - if survivor goes down under 1 hook, killer does not notice and goes for another hook and that hook gets sabotaged - if killer is still able to get to YET ANOTHER hook, then sabotages are totally and absolutely dead. Because there's no way how to sabotage better. It means killer will always get to the hook no matter what. That's basically equivalent of survivors having safe pallet every (killer pallet breaking time is 2.7s*4m/s of survivor speed) 10,8m. That just means killer has no chance whatsoever.
This is current state of sabotages for new maps right now
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Understand that the hook is separated from the second floor and the first floor.
Also, understand that sabotage is not a guarantee of success in brain death, but only a remedy.
Understand the aim of the killer and predict where you want to hang. Killer wants to hang it on a tactically effective hook, not just trying to suspend survivors on a nearby hook.
"It's a your skills issue"
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I do get that they are separated. Do u understand that the map size is calculated as addition of bottom size and top size? Where bottom is ~4000 square meters and top 3000 square meters? And you have 7 hooks on each floor, but theoretical reach is ~11000 square meters compared to those 4000/3000 square meters....
What I am saying here is, that sabotages should not be guaranteed. But we have opposite problem - sabotages are now guaranteed to fail no matter what. They are pure bait to even try to sabotage with current state of game (provided you don't get one of the old maps where sabotages still work - for now). This does take into account killer making a mistake and wrongly predicting where survivor is going to sabotage hook - because even successful sabotage means nothing if killer has still enough time to go for next hook.
Also it can't be skill issue if there's no way how to get it right. Your "skill issue" is the same as killer's "skill issue" to play around old (total instead of current) boil over when going to old RPD library upper floor. There's mathematical certainty to wiggle out (old boil over) / get to hook (current new maps) no matter what you do
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Saboing is meant to be niche, if you have an area where a hook is already gone from a sacrifice or its a map corner etc then you can do a sabo play every so often. But I beg lets not buff saboing so its actually a viable consistent thing, I just want to hook my survivors please.
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The issue isn't how it used to work. Saboing was niche.
All I am saying is, that with current changes saboing is no longer niche. Saboing is basically impossible now (with exception to getting one of the old maps where it still remains it's old niche).
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Maybe people here don't realize the changes that happened.
What just happened is the same as if killers got new perk that allows them to fully block windows from distance and instabreak pallets (buff to sabotage, breakout, bg player) - but at the same time survivor was sped up to 120% (while keeping killers at 110/115%). Like why bother with such a new perks when you know there's nothing you can do, because survivor can just hold-W for you to never catch him (in case of sabotaging - killer is able to get to next hook no matter how well you sabotage).
I really mean it - if we want to keep sabotages THIS BAD, what's the reason in keeping the mechanic in game? It's pure bait of even trying to play for sabotages. It would be more honest from developers to remove possibility to sabotage altogether
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Stand in an advantageous position. The game collapses when survivors overtake the killer from behind.
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Again. That does not matter. You overtake him. You sabotage hook killer was going for. Killer hits you once and you got away. Now there's nothing more you can do - but killer can still easily go to yet another hook.
What gives? Sabotaging is just dead. Going for sabotages is now throwing. Because hook density
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yep I want that. +unbreakable, at least we can do smthg about it.
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Let's bring a tool box. Even after being attacked, you can surely destroy the hook by destroying it again.
If you bring a Breakout, the survivors who have been carried by the killer can get out.
If you can't solve it alone, another person should solve it. What are the four survivors for?
Do not try to solve anything free of charge. You may be beaten by the killer until you fall, and you can get the time for the survivors carried by the killer to get out.
I know and experienced an example of survivors who have escaped from the killer many times. And it also includes the wisdom comparison with the killer, so if I fail, I am convinced that I am the bad.
You have the freedom to doubt me, but you can find many precedents on YouTube.
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YOU ABSOLUTELY IGNORE WHAT I WROTE.
AGAIN. You overtake killer. You sabotage hook. You take hit. Killer is still able to get to next hook. How does taking quicker toolbox change anything about that one?
Rancid abbbatoir is now so dense that even if u do this AND have breakout, it still does not matter
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This guy failed with the sabo playstyle and now he is malding
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I have a lot over 1000 hours on sabotages alone. I didn't choose meta saves like current buckle up or standard flashlight saves. If you ask anyone what's the most difficult/skillful way how to play altruistically - people will mention sabotages (if they even remember they are in game) - BUT the game was never in this bad state hook-wise.
And sure enough, hook sabotages were meta - but we are talking about versions of the game when permanent sabotages were possible - I am sure you don't even known about those, because it's just that old.
I just don't get why it was important to nerf something, that was already so niche, that most people didn't care about it (that's probably the reason why I am the only person complaining here). What's the point? To alienate a small number of players that do play that? (because that's what these new maps are doing right now)
And yes - I am mad. This was my favorite part when playing survivors so yes - the game has no more appeal to me. I am not going to hold M1 whole game on generator and I find comp playing (after trying it out) super boring.
It's like someone decided to add 30s cooldown to switching between Charlotte and Victor. Most people will not mind (and some survivors would be happy because they don't enjoy playing against Twins ever), because "nobody" plays Twins anyway. But it's still not healthy or reasonable change.
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I think there's too many gens. There should only be five, since only five are needed.
See the problem?
When a killer downs someone, that's supposed to be a hook. Blocking, saboing, Boiling Over, these aren't supposed to be an entire strategy for winning. Stopping a hook is supposed to be an extra thing survivors accomplish, not what they expect to do instead of running.
When a killer finds a way to stop gens completely, that's not a fun game, the basic objective of survivors isn't supposed to be stoppable. Stopping survivors is a bonus, but shouldn't be something that's consistantly do-able, shouldn't even be consistent.
If I bring gen progression to a halt, that's an accomplishment. If I bring all slowdown perks to bring gens to a halt, that's not an accomplishment, that's just being obnoxious. I don't want the game to be impossible for the other team, or miserable. I'm not trying to stop survivors from getting points, if anything, I'm piling them on.
And as others said, when a killer can't hook, there's no choice but to bleed survivors. Once a team shows me they don't think I should be able to play at all, that's when I camp, tunnel and bleed people out. If I can't get anyone hooked because they wanted that type of game, I have to make every hook as deadly as possible.
Once it's clear the plan is to not let me get hooks or points, the only thing left to play for is kills.
Don't yearn for a game that's too hard for killers, killers just adapt. I was here when sabos were permanent, I've played when the only hooks left were in the basement. Survivors didn't leave happy, they didn't leave at all. The game is healthier and more fun when basic objectives are possible.
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But that's not the case. We are not in a state where sabo is consistent. We are in state where sabo is no longer viable even under niche scenario. It's like giving everyone basekit unlimited unbreakable and removing bleedout timer, because slugging is not core gameplay.
There's a difference between something being hard and something being impossible. Sabotaging is now going to impossible category
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And I really have to ask you. Did you see new maps? Do you really think sabotages can be called consistent strategy? Do you trully believe it? Or do you think sabotaging as a whole concept (not just a rare ocasion when it works) was OP at say patch 6.1? Answer truthfully please.
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No, I didn't look at any new maps. I'll be extra-truthful, I am not strategically-minded enough to have any idea what the differences will be. I've only played survivor once, ever. I know what strategies work against me, other than that, I'll take your word for it on what is or isn't viable. Also I'm not smart enough to keep track of which patch is which.
But I don't think saboing to win is supposed to be viable. I don't think holding 3 gens for an hour is supposed to be viable, either. I think both sides are supposed to fight back and forth while doing objectives, the winner is the one that gets there first. Other things can work sometimes, but playing for objectives should be the most effective.
Sabo here and there, that's good. Sabo to save someone from death-hook, great play. Sabo every time? I don't know when that is or isn't viable, I don't think it should be. An atypical playstyle shouldn't be consistently viable for either side during any patch.
I often play atypically, but I don't think it should be as effective. It's a long shot, if it works it might be awesome, but it shouldn't usually work.
Coming into a game with the idea that you're not going to be hooked at all because of your build, I don't know if it's ever viable in any patch, but I don't think it should be.
Like I said, I don't know what works for survivors except for my own experience. Saboing to win has never been viable in my games, as soon as I see that's the plan, it's 4k unless the last one gets the hatch. If I can't go for my 12 hook, I'm happy to play for pretend-revenge. Making killers give up on hooking shouldn't be viable, that's what I'm saying.
But I also don't mean to say it's bad or should be penalized like it would be if killers were doing it, variety is what keeps me playing. I like the drama, the struggle and I love it when something different happens. Hook-denial teams can be a ton of fun, but I don't let them win. The only viable strategy against me is outplaying me. Plans won't save you, builds won't save you, you either get away or you don't.
That's how I think it should be.
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I agree it shouldn't work every time. If we disregard several parts of game (most recently boil over fiasko that indeed could make you unhookable), this wasn't the case. I also am not talking about having consistent way how to sabotage - that's why I was concerned with bg player buff.
But I didn't expect hook changes that were implemented. That's the only reason why I am quite frankly very unhappy. If sabotages were as strong as specifically at patch 6.0 (6.1 reduced hit cooldown which changed some crucial timings), I would be super satisfied.
There were some maps that were strong for sabotages and others that made it impossible. You could force some trades if played reasonably well, but even that wasn't guaranteed.
Right now there are no maps that are good for sabo (with exception to parts of selected few maps), but there's growing number of maps where going for sabo is stupid no matter what
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I think I see what you're saying, but it's pretty far into areas I'm not qualified in. I do see what you mean about the other, I was talking about sabo-only strat, and you were saying saboing as a smart play. You're right, saboing to help win should be viable, I don't enjoy it, but I respect it.
What was the change to hooks that messes with sabo? I didn't play last night, and I doubt I'd know it if I saw it.
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As others have said, sabotage does not guarantee a successful escape.
And for example, when a survivor is downed in the middle of the map, are you still trying to sabotage them? The killer can go anywhere from there. Survivors who try to interfere cannot block all paths. The killer's movement is restricted at the edge of the map. Let's understand the situation.
And your claim that there are hooks at 5m intervals has already been refuted. If you've played a killer for any length of time, you'll know that there are many situations in which the hooks used to hoist up survivors are not convenient.
Did you spend 1000 hours on sabotage? All you need to do is play the killer for 1000 hours and develop the ability to read the killer's reality and psychology.
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I lost 2 games last night to sabotage, it devastated my momentum and I could not recover in the short amount of time I had to make a difference. There is no objective reason that a crippling maneuver like sabotage should be made easier. If the gen times were not comically short, THEN something like easier sabotage might be realistic, but at the moment there is simply no time to facilitate what you're wanting in a way that is even remotely fair.
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With every map remake hook density goes way up. It started with Midwitch (this one was "justified" as hooks were really terrible there - now it's one of the harder maps for sabotages, but still possible), then they changed Rancid Abbatoir where it's absolutely not viable ever to sabotage (no matter if you are on map edge or anywhere) and now new mac millan variants are like Rancid. And they did nothing with Saloon - which was always very hook dense (and the only possibility of sabo was literally only if you had lucky RNG + the down happened inside gate, or if killer panicked and didn't realize 1 hook down means nothing).
And I will repeat myself - I don't want to have guarantee. I never did. But I don't want to have guarantee sabotage will fail. That's the issue I am talking about. Right now on new maps it's guaranteed sabotage will fail. 5m was of course hyperbole, but what is NOT hyperbole is, that killer can literally go for a hook that will go down right to his face, survivor can take hit and killer still has enough time to go for next hook GUARANTEEING that sabotage will fail. All I want is guarantees to be off for both sides.
Also I do play a lot of killer. So your comment in that regards is meaningless. Also playing as killer (on M&K) I still don't get why some people bring boil over (as it got value against me literally just 1x and even that one was mainly because of successful sabo and last wiggle hitting me on hook instead right next to it so that I could animation lock into it) - but that one is still popular.
Then those 2 games were on one of the old maps. I am 100% certain you either panicked, or you were not in mac millan (new variants)/saloon/rancid abbatoir. My guess is it's the map thing not panic thing
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Use Oak Offerings with your Sabo build
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Really? works for me. (not 100% of the times tho)
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Oak offering is placebo. It does not make any real difference - even if you 4man stack it. RNG is king - you can have map that spawns a lot of hook close together with 4x the offering and you can have map with barely any usable hook with just putrid oak offering.
Tried it on new maps?
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Too many hooks?
"House of Pain" and lower level of Badham Preschool would like to disagree.
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House of pain is guaranteed 2 hooks within carry distance (one in front of it and one behind it). There could be even more depending on RNG.
As for badham main - this I agree is one of complicated spots if you don't have basement there. But if you open breakable walls, you should always have at least 1 hook within carry distance (probably more depending on RNG).
But the topic is a bit different - if devs touched badham now, I am pretty sure main would have 2 hooks on bottom floor, 2 hooks on top floor and house of pain would have 1 hook on each floor too. All the newly touched maps have way too many hooks
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Admitted that i havent tried on the new maps.
I disagree with the Oak offerings, our swf always use them when we play sabo, and we defo see an effect. Also as a former killer i felt the effect.
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sabotaging isnt meant to get saves on its own, its meant to augment team plays. If you want to secure saves by yourself thats what flashlights are for.
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Yes. Sadly this is true. Sabo is no longer usable on it's own. You need whole team to sabo otherwise it's wasted effort while flash save is both easier, more reliable and less costly.
And these are all the results of recent patches where hook density only goes up. This absolutely wasn't the case at patch 6.0. And even though most people didn't care and those that did were admitting sabo is too hard (with ocasional complaint about boil over which I don't really get), we are still getting new maps that are even harder for sabo then previous one.
Why? I have no idea. But looking at this discussion it's shared sentiment that sabotages should be slowly deleted from this game.
I take your word for it. Whenever I tried it, RNG played much bigger role so I didn't keep statistically large enough sample to make informed decision (and basically almost stopped using the offering long time ago).
Still it's quite common to see better hook RNG without any offering then with stacked offering (which can be random fluke, but this absolutely does happen)
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So when basekit agitation then?
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Yeah then killers complain that the hooks shouldn't break/permanently break when sacrificing lol
Saboing is already niche as it is, no need to make it worse
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Exactly, its a mechanic which if too prevalent is just poor design since at the core a killer deserves a hook if they manage to down someone.
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Not enough hooks.
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It’s not necessarily the amount of hooks it’s hook spawns in general that are horrible. Usually 80% of the hooks are on half the map while the other 20% is on the other side.
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Agree. Similarly, there is no need to make it better.
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