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Now that facecamping has been addressed, can we do something about the efficiency of splitting up?
Hello everyone, and yeah, I am serious.
I know that it is an unpopular opinion, but splitting up on gens is way too efficient these days with all the ways the killers repertoire has been shrunk and dumbed down. We lost hook grabs, facecamping and face with survivor basekit BT. All in all this is okay, I support this kind of change, but at least for me, I am reaching my limits, tbh.
Over half of my games have MFT in them, so unless I am lucky, chases become an absolute slog and you often have to run mindlessly around the most trashy of trashloops and purposefully disrespect the pallet, because otherwise the darn thing will never get out of the way.
And all this time survivors are normally working on 3 gens at the same time. I get it, everyone wants to survive and splitting up IS the most efficient way of doing the gens, but ugh, its also putting so much pressure and strain on the killer. Not every killer can be all over the map and pressure survivors and its not uncommon to have a very good first chase and down the survivor quickly, but still getting rewarded with 2 or even 3 gens done in quick succession.
And after this, what are you gonna do? Once the game hits the 2 gens mark its usually in your best interest to get one survivor out of the game pronto. But this can lead to plays were I have to tunnel that one player I found at the very start of the game out in quick succession, just to get some breathing room, because that player can just slam gens like everyone else when spared.
I actually had such a situation where I hooked one player two times in succession and when they ran into me a third time, I actually spared them and just slugged them.
I was rewarded with gens getting slammed and got a couple hooks on all others, but by that the game had slipped past my control. Had I tunneld and killed that one survivor, I would at least have had a chance to play a fun game. Now it was all a very frustrating affaire. I edged out a single kill by very good endgame management, but was pretty hard reprimanded in the post game chat.
And this is not a singular occurance, not some "hur dur a killer lost one game and now runs to the forums crying". This is happening nearly every game, survivors are extremly efficient and put so much pressure on me by being allowed to split up without any repercussion.
So here is my actual demand: give splitting up some kind of debuff, something like anti-proof thyself. Call it "Fear of the Dark" or "Facing the Darkness alone" or whatever, but make doing gens alone not THIS effective, at least not the first three. The games were I actually had fun were the games where the survivors weren't this brutally efficient, where two bunched up on a gen and did it a bit faster, but just one gen at a time, and not 3 gens all over the map.
I know that I will get a lot of flak for just bringing such a crazy idea on the table, but lets discuss: what are your experiences? I wouldn't mind some actuall anti-tunnel basekit, if the survivors couldn't slam gens this hardm but right now games move so fast, there is barely a game left.
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I primarily play the weaker killers such as Myers (no tombstone), pig, ghostie, and deathslinger.
MFT alone has turned one of my favorite games into an incredibly frustrating experience. I have a hard time even talking myself into playing anymore. Ghostie is already weak at chases, and this makes it even worse. Throw on top of that the new ridiculous background player buff that let's survivors cross half of entire maps in 5 seconds, and it's just.....why am I even playing this anymore? Survivors get more powers than even freaking killers do. It's getting silly and frustrating for us m1 killer mains.
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Yeah for the event i am currently running random builds made by a discord bot. Yesterday a match as Doctor against 4 MFTs + Resilience + Hope + WoO in Badham was the worst match i had in a long time, then the survs say “Why am i facing too many Nurses/Blights/Weskers?” or “Why the killer is so tryhard” Thats what i dont like personally of DbD, if you want to have fun, you need to make no failures, bring a meta build as a killer, other way, the match will be unplayable
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I don't think global nerfs is the way to go, MFT nerf is coming I'm pretty sure ? and then I would try small changes like deleting gen repair speed from toolboxes and rework it, maybe gen speed from resislience.. then see how it affects the game but slowly you know, changing 30 things at the same time like 6.1 update was pretty bad
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You are probably right. While MFT isn't the sole reason for this, its a pretty big part of the problem and slimming that one down a bit will definitely help.
I really think that the efficiency right now is way to high, though, and even without MFT, if you make one mistake in your first chase, you already lose half the gens and got nothing to show for it.
One thing that always rubbed me the wrong way with DBD was that there is no catch-up mechanic of any kind for the side that has currently fallen behind the curve. If the killer gets 4 hooks and scares survivors away and they only get 1 gens done in that time, the trial is basically over and just a waste of time 9/10 games. Same if the killer only gets 2 hooks on two different survivors when 3 gens get done. Yes, you can sometimes come back from such a state, but not if the survivors play it save and correct.
Comeback mechanics are unpopular, because players don't want to "get punished for playing good" or even better "the other side getting rewarded for playing bad", but comeback mechanics can make a game more fun and interesting. Right now DBD is mostly "stomp or get stomped" by a throw of the MMR dice.
But I am pleasantly surprised, we got pretty measured responses so far :)
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All in all, BHVR just needs to address the "Permanent" status of Resi,MFT,hope and WOO + 30s of basekit corrupt and maybe 4s of lethal .
I'll never understand why Resi suffers from this big of an identity crisis to the point of being a Gen slam perk + Chase + Totem + Healing + whatever perk.
Revert Woo to 3.0.0 , Revert hope to the 1.3.0 version, and slap a 30s timer on Resi+MFT , this way the "just drop chase lmao" coments would actually be valid.
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I mean y’all wanted Prove nerfed and so it was. Lol. Now you don’t want survivors splitting up on gens.
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I don't think that a debuff is the right way to go, because that would probably be too punishing overall.
Rather, I'd look at the source of the issue. In your examples, you highlight specifically losing three generators in your first chase, and there are only one real reason that would happen if your chase is reasonably fast: The survivors spawned spread out. This, in my opinion, is the single reason that the killer early game can feel so impossible at times, though it must be mentioned that toolboxes make this even worse.
If we were to see an update that contained both a pretty substantial rework to toolboxes and the change "survivors now spawn in groups of either two or four", these issues would be fixed overnight. Survivors who spawn together and spread out are spending some of the time they're trying to gain back travelling to a different generator, but survivors who spawn spread out just get gifted that efficiency for free.
Survivors shouldn't be punished for making the right decision and pressuring multiple generators at once, but they also should be required to actually make that decision to begin with instead of being given it on a platter as they spawn in.
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Against a good team of survivors, playing nice will likely lead to a loss. Unless you get some sort of snowball, the gens will be done before you get three hooks. That's why solo queue teams can be toppled so easily, one weak link can sink an entire team. The lack of communication isn't the biggest problem.
"We lost hook grabs, facecamping and face with survivor basekit BT".
"All in all this is okay, I support this change".
I do think at some point BHVR will have to accept that getting 12 hooks against solid survivor teams without getting your hands dirty is hideously difficult. When I get teammates that are a similar strength to me, the gens go by pretty fast. It's just that solo queue matchmaking is so bad that you end up with teammates that can by themselves sink the entire team.
I think this game would be much easier to balance if the skill floor for playing survivor wasn't so steep. No game should require hundred's of hours before you are competent and no longer a detriment to your team. The gulf between high level SWF and average solo queue survivors is so big, that nerfs to survivor have to be precise. So BHVR should be nerfing the strongest loops, that average survivors can't really use well instead of nerfing healing or gen speeds for example.
Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
Its not "y'all", its me making a suggestion that could be soley a me-problem. But judging from the response , and the nice discourse we got here, I think that I am not the only one who sees the problem at hand.
Thats some good point you make here. One thing thats related to this is killer spawn, too! When I spawn at the edge of the map, I have a pretty good general idea where at least one survivor could be. But sometimes I spawn smack in the middle of the map with gens basically all around me, and thats aweful. Its basically a coin toss in which direction to head and it could very much happen that I patrol two gens, but chose wrong and by the time I head back 3 gens pop without me so much as seeing a glimbs of the survivors. A survivor going down in the first 20s of the match is nowhere as punishing as this, and there is no "git gud" or "game sense" involved, its just a coin toss and if you lose, you lose the match right at the start.
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I'm with you, I want solo'd gens to be less efficient. Sadly some Killers will die on the hill that co-op gens are too fast, despite being slowed down currently... I even showed that a strong event/commodious toolbox basically functions as a co-op member on a gen, so maybe solo numbers should be looked at, but they took it they opposite way to think co-op gens are too fast, solo is fine. You will have to fight through 'your own side' in order to get the changes you want. When that person ignored the blatant math that solo gens are better, I knew I couldn't reason with them using logic, and I'm not the best at appeal to emotion arguments, so I gave up, and considered them a lost cause.
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Slowing gen repair down even more is a horrible idea. If you want to split the game into solo mode where you play only with randoms and friend mode where you play with anywhere from 1-3 friends, it would be more acceptable, but even then I run into so many tunnelers and other trash killers who we barely get a gen done before everyone dies even when playing with a friend because someone gets found early and it turns into a game of the unhooker taking the place of the hooked where it's rinse & repeat and that's just digusting. Or it's because the killer was placed right next to a survivor or uses Lethal and finds a survivor early they wouldn't have and then the entire match goes to ######### like a chain reaction. Or other cases the killer has an insane advantage on a map where it's impossible to avoid them, like a Doctor I played against earlier on Midwich who decided the map wasn't already easy enough with it's 2 floor compressed space where he could easily find us already with static blasts that he decided to tunnel as well.
If you want to balance the game, program it to punish one side if it's too overpowered or just too advantaged. For killers, adjust their powers & terror radius for maps that are OP for them so that for a Doctor playing on Midwich, the static blast has a much smaller range. Make it so Skull Merchant loses a drone for every gen that is done so she can't just fill the map with drones when the 3 possible gens that can be done for the last gen are left. Ban certain perks on certain killers or make their effects much less on those killers (like sloppy butcher or Thanato on Legion or Oni which just break the game). For survivors, slow them down if X gens are done in under Y minutes. Give killers a choice of temporary hex perks that would serve as a 5th perk and activate & deactivate as needed based on predefined conditions of the match like Ruin or a lite temporary version of Devour Hope that would inflict exposed for a certain time until more time passes or the killer gets another hook or 2 or the totem is cleansed. Consider the same 5th temporary perk idea for survivors as well when things go to hell for them with too few gens getting done. Or if a survivor gets tunneled at 4 or 5 gens, punish killers by bringing that survivor back for another 3 since there is no reason to tunnel someone that early.
All these problems are created due to this game not being split up. DBD was way more fun back before the first RE DLC came out with Nemesis, Jill & Leon. Before killer perks like Lethal Pursuer, Hex: Plaything, Eruption, Call of Brine, Hex: Pentimento, Ultimate Weapon, Face The Darkness, Howhere to Hide and others that get abused and show killers where survivors are for doing nothing that involves hunting for survivors and before survivor perks like the boons (which are now all but dead thanks to the CoH nerf) and Made For This and other new ones. The game should have been split into classic DBD which would have spanned from Trapper to The Twins or Trickster along with Dwight through Elodie/Yun Jin for survivors and modern DBD where it would span from Trickster or Nemesis through all the latest killers & Yun Jin/Leon & Jill to the latest survivors. If it would've been split like this with no mixing of survivors, killers or perks other than universal perks, then it would be much easier to balance and players who enjoy the DBD style they like most can stick to it while those who enjoy both could play both and let the game automatically place them in the proper lobbies based on the survivor/killer they choose.
I'd hate to be penalized for a perk (Made For This) that I don't even have when my solo queue matches have been craptastic enough. The camping thing does nothing when proxy camping is still done and when now you have abuse with Ultimate Weapon where killers down a survivor and then open lockers every 30 seconds to reveal any survivors coming for the heal. I played against a Huntress who did that and it made me want to delete the game which I will do if it becomes a trend. If solo queue is made any more miserable, I have no problem being another one of 1000s who permanently put this game in their rear view mirror. Killer especially is so easy these days that there is very little excuse, though I can see MFT being a pain. I'd gladly kill that perk in exchange for Lethal, Ultimate Weapon, Plaything and the others I mentioned. Or add incentives to play without those perks like double XP (meaning faster buildup of shards) and even triple XP for players playing perkless. There are many things that can be done without punishing players. Maybe even match perkless killers with survivor in lobbies that have one or more perkless survivors. One of the best killers I ever faced was a perkless Hillbilly who destroyed us all in one of the Crotus Penn maps and did it without tunneling or camping a single time. I did the same with Hillbilly against a team of survivors on the Artist map despite that map being more survivor friendly against a team that had some pain in the ass loopers.
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I really don't want to increase face in generator time, its the least fun part of the survivor game.
I'd rather we had a mechanic that forced survivor motion when hooks happen. I don't know what it should look like, but things like ultimate weapon have that effect, so that is a pleasant sign from the developers.
You have rapid brutality in that build though...
No bloodlust, which is the compensation mechanic for those medium sized loops that you might try to tail over, but have wonky hit boxes that block your hits anyway. And just those structures combined with small survivor hitboxes are a problem, adding MFT means I just leave and try to catch someone out of position. Which usually means tunneling.
So, some buff that lets hook trades and proxy camping stay as they are, but ensure that the unhooked survivor gets to be well away, in exchange for longer total generator completion time could work. I guess, just no collision no track marks for like 20 seconds or until any action is taken would be good, and I'm sure that's been suggested a million times before. And just something creative to force survivors to move around after hooks.
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Just for clarification: I am not asking for a general gen time increase, just that doing the first three gens seperately isn't that efficient, as it leads to the kind of games that back killers instantly against the wall ... which leads to tunneling the first survivor ... which leads to ruined games on both sides.
Ideally survivors would do the first gens together, as to give the killer a bit more breathing room and to prevent the popping of 3 gens one after another. I know that if I get what I want survivors would probably optimize everything out of that situation, too, but one gen popping after the next one is way less stressful for the killer, and feels less sweaty.
But your ideas are also good; I always thought that the unhooked survivor bodyblocking for the unhooker was a very unhealthy gameplay element, as most killers, myself included, take that as an open tunnel invitation: if you don't want to get away, but stay in the chase game, be my guest. If a survivor would lose colision and be untargetable, they could (would) just zoom off.
Regarding Rapid Brutality, I have it equipped, because it helps with catching up to MFT users, although the window is pretty small, RB combos well with STBFL. But once that timer runs out, the pain begins. Ugh.
Also as an update: basically every singel game tonight has been an utter sweat fest and the survivors I faced went 100% by "gens before friends" and used every second to push gens; even looking the other way became detrimental and even the smallest mistakes were exploited without mercy.
I havn't seen the inside of the void for like 8 games, because I just got no time. And even before I rarely could effort to free a Haunt, missing out on so much BP.
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MFT just shouldn't be a perk. The effect needs to change. Lose the haste altogether. We're getting too much haste on either side (it's creeping into killer perks too) and it's a rabbit hole I don't trust the devs to responsibly balance on the fly with high level players in mind.
That being said, I don't think an efficiency debuff for survivors is the way to go on gens. It opens up a can of worms in terms of balance when you start to incentivize grouping up on gens, and I don't mean that it benefits survivors. Many higher tier killers thrive on grouped survivors. Nurse immediately comes to mind. My eyes light up when I see survivors doubling or tripling gens early game.
We can debate the fun aspect and lack of viable build variety, but killers do currently have some tools for early game split gen pressure. I see very few killers on NA East run Corrupt Intervention. It's the best early game zoning tool a killer has. It has historically had an obscene pick rate at the competitive level. I would never run without Corrupt if I knew I was facing a competent team, because the worst thing that can happen is having immediate split pressure across the entire map.
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I play without these and loop just fine. I've seen people use those perks and go down quite fast as well. I feel folks will complain no matter what. Can't make everyone happy.
I feel the real issue rn is tunneling. I got a friend into the game and after a day of being tunneled non stop he quit.
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That boils down to the fact nobody runs anti-tunnel anymore and just banks everything on chase perks.
If survivor "basekit" is just run fast + vault fast when injured, nobody is going to think twice about tunneling because its the most effective way to win the game and theres no deterrent, after all, the guy off hook only has 1 healthstate to chew trough vs the unhooker with 2 healthstates.
Couple that with the fact that gens are being done at an alarming speed it leaves killer with no time to waste on a 2 healthstate chase against MFT+Resi builds so tunneling increases.
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I feel like the problem is if killers can get a 12 hook 4k without ever getting their hands dirty imagine the strength of a killer who tunnels, camps, and slugs. Its been 7 years and if they can't make a state of the game where 12 hook games are stronger than getting your hands dirty I don't think it will ever happen. Well just keep getting a bunch of global killer nerfs and some killers will sink while others swim and bhvr will keep making broken perks and leaving them in the game for too long, at this point just increase all killer movement speeds across the board by 3% so mft can't throw off any timings and force survivors to waste perk slots so killers can use their speed differentials properly
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Were you not one of those killer mains screaming for a nerf to Prove..? To your suggestions, at the end of the day BHVR isn’t going to nerf a core aspect of survivor gameplay without concession. You can’t have survivors inefficient on single gens but also inefficient when grouped on gens. You basically just want gens slowed down so you have more time to kill survivors.
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But doing gens with other survivors already has lower efficiency and with your idea so does doing them alone... So what exactly is the point? Then people will just bring proove thyself because you get less efficiency regardless of what you...
Also facecamping was never an effective thing to do, proxy camping was always better... And hook grabs did not work properly anyway because of weird delay or whatever it was, just like gen grabs...
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Doing gens alone is not inefficient, its actually the most efficient way to do gens. When I started my DBD journey in 2021 a typical game would play out like this: I find a survivor, chase, I down them eventually, meanwhile one gen pops, hook. Rinse repeat. This would go on for a while and things would be rather casual till the 2 gens mark, when things got spicy: the playfield had shrunk, the survivors had accumulated a couple of hook stages each, someone might have been on deathhook or not.
But now the game is in fast forward mode, the survivor playerbase as a whole learned, opposed to a couple of "good players", that splittin up on gens is way more efficient, so most of the time survivors will look for their own gens at the start of the trial and stay there till its done or the killer chases them off.
In theory there is nothing bad about good play choices, but the game is straining under this ultra efficient gameplay. Even with Lethal Pursuer and a good first chase chances are that two gens will pop by the end of it, sometimes even three. Whats left of a trial at this point? Sure, the killer can always make a comeback, but 1 hook vs the first 3 gens done is a ratio that allows only one response by the killer: tunnel that one survivor who got hooked and leave them no chance to escape, because if they do, they can just sit on a gen like everyone else.
I don't believe that an anti-proof-thyself is the best solution, but thats why I wanted to start this conversation. Against so-so survivors you can sometimes chase them off a gen and they will hide till they don't hear your terror radius anymore, but against good ones, they will jump right back onto it the very second your back is turned. I guess that survivor mains have no idea how much pressure this puts on the killers shoulder and that this leads to tunneling.
Yes, some killers will tunnel at all times, no matter if they dominate or not, but even thouse who actually don't want to and who love the cute little interactions that sometimes occure between killer and survivor, these get pummeled by gens flying left and right and the only solution seems to be to actually become the monster that everyone despises.
The meta will always try to move towards the most optimal playstyle and right now thats the sub 6min game with half the survivor crew never even seeing the killer in person. Everyone always talks about this "we just played the best Billy player who totally tabled us and who didn't tunnel and camp one single time", yeah that can happen, I have had this kinda games myself, but they aren't the norm, they are the big outliers that only happen when the survivors somehow mess up big time, and only against killers who can get fast downs.
Everyone wants to promote the 9 hooks gameplay, but how can we get towards this? I posted a lot of solutions in the past about this, but I am no game designer and I am probably missing parts of the big picture. But right now the game is really straining under the pressure put on it, ie killers tunneling like their live depends on it and survivors efficiently slamming gens like there is no tomorrow. I am as open to a solution to this conundrum as the next guy and I am definitely not the kinda killer main who can't see 5ft beyond their own problems, but I got a feeling that this particular problem here isn't talked about enough.
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Yeah but that's my point, if you make it so there is basically not really an efficiency difference between solo and duo/trio gens then people will just bring prove more even though it will not negate it completely it will probably be more efficient for pure gen time, ofc it is also easiert to interrupt two people if they work the same gen and so on ... I mean if the playerbase as such has just gotten better should that not also apply to the killer? If you don't bring corrupt you will usually loose 2-3 gens during the first chase, that's what tends to happen, unless you have a really good killer that ends the chase fast enough. So either we want to basically re-balance everything or this is what it is... I would rather take a look at toolboxes and decrease their potential in basically halfing gen time if used properly... There was the idea of an early game collapse that would decrease the headstart survivors get with being able to get on a gen immediatly whereas the killer has to find someone first to work towards his objective, but they didn't continue on that idea... However I think just a flatout efficiency decrease is not the way... I would rather have something more thought through.
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Corrupt is good, but I prefer lethal pursuer. Typically 3 people spawn together, and you can break them up easily, but lethal adds value all game. Currupt is good,and the early game benefit can snowball, but I like fast killers and dropping someone in 40 seconds makes me feel sad when corrupt ends
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But then Corrupt has already achieved its purpose... The survivors moved towards the smaller part of the map where the not corrupted gens are... So even though it is limited the perk did not really get that much weaker with the deactivation condition.
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Not unpopular at all, lots of concerns and complaints about it - why is MFT not a temporary effect like the Alien's similar version? Im fine with it being a little longer than Alien's perk, but 15 seconds max. Running all the way across the board when it's so tedious to get bloodlust started (should start the moment you lay eyes on the survivor and start running toward them.)
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Corrupt can be a double edged sword against good survivors though cause it usually push them to the center gens which are the gens survivors should be doing first and save the outer gens that they usually spawn by for last to prevent 3 gens.
Doing the inner gens first so the last 3 are all spread in the farthest corners of the map is the BEST strat and sometimes corrupt will push survivors who don't know that to doing that inadvertently.
I've played in some matches with inexperienced teammates who did the inner gens cause corrupt blocked the farther ones and I'm like YESS that's what you're supposed to do all along to prevent 3 gens.
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That would probably help. As I stated somewhere above, my proposed solution was just a 2min brainstorm and I wanted to start a discussion to maybe come up with something workable.
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plausible! Fair enough!
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