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have survivors gotten worse as of recent?
this is a genuine question, and it’s not meant to be harsh. It’s just i’ve noticed how ridiculously popular WoO has become, it was definitely wasn’t an unpopular pick before, but now i see atleast 1-3 of it every match i play.
i’m not asking for it to be nerfed, the perk is completely fine and acts as a decent way for less experienced players too loop/chase decently (and is also a good accessibility option). But i personally don’t run the perk because i feel like it kinda kills a bit of the joy in looping/chase because i don’t feel rewarded for knowing the maps.
i think what really sells the idea of survivors being worse for me is when WoO is combo’d with MFT (this is not hating on MFT, this is more-so just my opinion on the WoO and MFT combo), it’s just basically like playing the game on auto pilot. Like i’m being genuine here, pairing those 2 perks just turns the game into auto pilot mode. And the thing is this combo is extremely popular, why??? There’s so many better perk options than WoO that can also help with chasing. Any Means tells you if a pallet has been used, Alert does aswell, meaning you know not to go there during a loop but they also give you MUCH more info/value.
It just feels a bit odd that i’ve seen so many people complain about fun recently when the most popular builds at the moment are just auto-pilot chase builds. It feels concerning how popular WoO is right now when it’s mainly a beginners steering wheel perk.
(also the fact that a lot of people are complaining about ultimate weapon, an info perk, also says a lot. Would you rather hide the whole match and have the killer run 4 anti-gen perks?)
Comments
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There was an actual state:
"The more you using crutch perks, the far worse you'll get if you lose them."
To put it simply: Both killers and survivors become addicted to some perks, that they completely forgot how to play without them.
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This is me and DH.
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WoO is good when you're playing solo and majority of survivors are solo (I think as high as 60%), which would make sense they wanna run self-sufficient perks like WoO and MFT.
I mean I still play against killers bring 3 slowdowns whose entire plan is to whittle down the resources, that is super hard to deal with as solo survivor. you either have to bring a counter to slowdown/3gen perks or have a super strong early game so as to deny any advantage and chance for them to snowball, and that has not been hard to achieve in a while, especially for killers with decent map mobility.
Players will naturally gravitate towards least challenging playstyles.
UW isn't just an info perk, it's a 3 in one perk. it's an info perk, a disrupt perk and can be a slowdown perk with DMS. It can also be more efficient than bringing other aura perks like Nowhere to Hide or BBQ and Chili. It's also a great counter to solos in general since they rely a lot on aura to find their teammates (I bring Bond for example), and it can easily deny the perk you're complaining about (WoO). No need to be this biased. The only reason you don't see many complaints yet is because people are too slow to adopt it, or maybe cause it has not been in the Shrine yet and some people don't wanna pay money for a single perk that comes from a licensed killer. Let's see after it's added in the shrine and once high mobility killers start running it how annoying it'll be.
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Dev should make WoO basekit!!!
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Tbh that nerf did a lot more good to survivors than bad. Other exhaustions are way more reliable and they don't have to rely on a killer having an acceptable ping. DH was fun no doubt, but many times it failed cause the ping was bad and you can not see the ping in lobby unfortunately.
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oops
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I don't think a survivor running WoO or MFT necessarily indicates that they suck. There are good reasons to run WoO, especially if you are playing in solo queue, and MFT doesn't do much for survivors that suck at the game. It's fine if you think survivors running those perks suck, but it's not a good way of quantifying whether survivors are getting worse at the game.
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Memorizing pallet placement ain't gonna tell me in soloq if someone used it or not.
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Any Means is about resetting loops, Alert is about knowing where the killer is, and Windows is about knowing what pallets haven't been thrown down or destroyed. I don't use MFT, so can't speak on that combo, but I think the sudden popularity of WoO has more to do with solo queue getting harder to tolerate and players feeling like they can only really rely on themselves now. I've been playing for 3 years and for 2.5 of those years I never even considered WoO as part of my build. It had zero appeal to me. It's recently become a staple, I use it often. I can't say exactly what has changed, as after 2.5 years I've got alot of map knowledge up my sleeve already so it's not about that.
I've also theorised before that the recent cutting down of pallets in map reworks may be playing a role too. When there aren't alot of pallets to begin with, and alot more dead zones, people want to know in advance exactly what they have to work with.
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The reason Windows is so good IMO is because it lets you know which pallets your teammates have used
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It's undeniably one of the best perks in the game. Especially for more casual players who don't have the time nor the inclination to learn where the pallets spawn on every map. Anytime I run it it makes me a better looper.
But I usually don't. Seeing those stupid yellow auras all over the place really kills my immersion. I'd rather run right past a pallet and get downed than have WoO killing all the spooky vibes in my horror game.
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Your last point I feel holds some truth and I feel it's also the reason killers get even more frustrated because they're hoping to catch someone move to a deadzone (now that there are more than before) and down them there. If they bring WoO that becomes harder to take advantage of, it's also why they hate SWF, because SWF offer a lot of info about what is going on, but killers wanna deny info.
It's also why many were annoyed survivors were not healing as much after healing nerfs but slammed gens instead. When they asked for nerfs they were hoping it would indirectly mean slowing down the game, but when killers bring Sloppy Butcher, it makes healing effectively unreasonable.
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matchmaking has been changed, and nobody can convince me otherwise. far too often im getting sub 300 hour players in my lobbies.
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The past week I've also gotten quite a few new killers, but I was gone for a little over a month so idk if it's just my MMR dropping or new people are playing cause of the event, or came back.
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Any means and Alert also tell you if a pallet has been thrown down though (any means shows dropped pallet aura’s, Alert gives a sound queue and aura for a pallet or a gen is kicked). WoO is just an easier to use, less effective alternative but it’s not an awful choice, especially with your point about the map reworks, it’s kinda the better option currently with how much they keep changing maps right now lol
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I don't know why, but it seems that pallet are more hidden or less present in some map, and, when you are in two or three dead zone, and try to survive, yeah, having some aura reading perk for seeing pallet or windows is good
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The first month after the DH Rework was some of the best entertainment I have ever had
Watching people try to E for distance and fail miserably was nothing short of peak comedy
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I think characterizing WoO as a newbie perk or crutch perk mostly comes from a less experienced perspective, to be honest. There's nothing unskilled about wanting to account for RNG and teammate pallet usage. That's something a good player knows they need to account for. Take the guesswork out of it and make good pathing decisions.
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I mean it definitely is a crutch perk for a group of survivors. The amount of times I've seen people use WoO but then get blinded and have no idea how to not get mind gamed at a loop is numerous. But other than that it does usually allow for auto piloting by not using your eyes to see if a loop ahead of you has a pallet (and other than that knowing the general location of chases taking place can help with knowing which pallets are most likely thrown) and if you can't have visual on the pallet spawn then thats how the RNG of the game works.
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It’s not because they are new it’s more run for the same reason people run kindred. It tells you exactly what loops are available if you don’t have coms, It runs chases for you, it tells you exactly what pallets spawned, and what has or haven’t been used by your teammates. Same for kindred it tells you exactly where when the killer is camping
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WoO, that's your clue for survivors being worse?
I agree survivors appears to be generally less skilled they used to be years ago, but WoO is certainly not a sign.
I blame every limitation added to the killers they do not have to learn to counter anymore to be efficient.
(Full disclosure : I'm not nor I have ever been a good survivor. I'm average at best, IMHO)
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it is because ultimate weapon is not tremendously outshining other perks. bbq & nowhere to hide are good enough aura perks to not need ultimate weapon. killer do not value blindness at all. if they do, they're likely using knock out. DMS is not outshining pain res, pop, eruption or pain res, jolt, sloppy. it is at least equal for corrupt & deadlock.
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WoO is outshining other perks but the reason being is that it provides crucial swf-type info on your teammates pallet usage. you can get by without WoO but then you have to do some guess work whenever your teammate get chased and assume certain pallets are being broken based off killer TR and where survivor got hooked. many player don't want to do that guess work and run window of opportunity instead and then there is player that run windows because... they're new and they're learning the game with pallet spawns.
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I've unfortunately reached an MMR as my beloved Pig where I hit MFT often, being used by players that would give me a hard time even if they didn't have it... who greed pallets for absolutely ages...
It gets painful when you're hitting BL1 before you even manage to get into the same zip code as the survivor you're chasing 😔
My last game I didn't even catch someone who looped me forever at shack because they never fell for anything I tried, and I kept stubbornly crouching to try and catch them on a different mind game instead of hitting BL3. When I finally forced the pallet out of them, the last gen got done and they had hope, proceeding to literally run a big circle round me for 30 seconds and back towards the gate, and I still couldn't get near them before they made it out.
I should have ditched them way earlier and gone for the weaker players... but by the time I realised how bad I was getting juiced it was already way too late...
I don't like to tunnel, camp and whatever... but Jesus playing against a strong set of solo survivors that can embarress you that hard is bitter....
So in short... no... I feel survivors can still slap me plenty hard when they know what they're doing 😔
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UW is better than Nowhere to Hide and Lethal because it does their job while taking up a perkslot and not being countered by Distortion, it's that simple.
The only reason you probably think it's mid is cause not everyone and their mother is running atm.
But this is the same excuse people used to give about old Eruption, that it's actually not strong and maybe it's problematic when run with Call of Brine and even then you had people defended it saying you can actually counter it etc. etc.
I personally think it'll become a problem in the future.
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I ran that perk once for a Tome challenge and never again. All those Yellow auras are so distracting.
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I think it's more of a "if survivors do gens then it's an easy win" compared to the chasing someone and one of the survivors chasing you with a flashlight for whatever reason. My solo Queue games seem to be me doing gens and the other 3 hiding or doing a random totem.
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I don't run WoO because it'd be using a perk slot for knowledge/sense I already have. It's true it will tell me what pallets have already been used, but to me that uncertainty is kinda fun, and I feel like I still get more value from whatever perk I'm running that would have been used on WoO.
I just don't feel like I'd benefit from it all that much, and all those yellow auras are just a bunch of visual noise I don't need.
My counter might be that NTH doesn't make itself obvious to everyone right away (unless they are running Distortion, which I think everyone should be in the current meta). And lots of people run Calm Spirit thinking it counters UW (it doesn't).
It might come down to personal preference, and for me (I can only hear out of one ear and directional audio is only mildly useful to me) I just prefer NTH. That said, I often run both, lol.
I have developed an unhealthy relationship with NTH, though. It has gotten to the point where I feel slightly handicapped without it, which isn't good.
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It’s this and the fact that BHVR is nerfing top survivor perks. Those that maybe have been, say, the 6-8th most popular are naturally going to rise in popularity as 1-5th are weakened. There will always be some sort of META.
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I find WoO of opportunity annoying too and I already run Bond, so I wanna avoid running 2 info perks at the same time.
True, but on high mobility killers I don't think it matters, cause you can catch up to them, on stealth killers it might be a bit counter-intuitive but I have seen it being used on Myers and even Huntress. I'm beginning to see it a lot more often, just not with the DMS combo yet, but usually with other aura reading perks, which I think kind of defeats the purpose.
I would assume NTH gives you some free hits with unsuspecting survivors hiding close to a gen, that's why you're addicted to it.
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Agree
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It's both sides. We have gotten so used to some perks, that we basically don't know how to play without them. I am 100% addicted to Shadowborn and I even find myself spun sometimes when I don't use it. I guess Shadowborn does have an actual use other than to make the game look better after all.
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My main issues with WoO are:
- The lesser concern: It makes Shift W and predropping pallets too strong. Shift W is already boring enough, but WoO allows optimizing this boring playstyle. At least they waste ressources pretty quickly.
- The major concern: It makes pro loopers near unbeatable! If you chase a player thats already really good at looping, knowing all about lunge distances and power cooldowns, it can already be really hard to down them. If you add perfect knowledge of vaults and pallets onto that, it gets borderline unfair. If I survivor player can already stand their ground for more than one or two minutes in a chase, WoO is just over-the-top.
WoO is often defended with the argument "It's a beginner perk, only newbie players use / need it." Thats total bs in my experience. There are way too many really experienced players that use this perk (and mft, btw) to make themselves near unbeatable / uncatchable. And thats really a problem with the perk.
What could be done about WoO then? I say deactivate it after something like 30s or 45s in a chase, and give it a slight cooldown so you cannot escape the chase for a split second and have another 30s fo aura ready. Could be implemented by the perk dealing blindness itself after using it too long in a chase (so a drawback of "overutilizing" it). Another possibility could be shrinking the range of the perk the longer you are chased. So it looses value over time.
About Mft and UW, both perks just do too much, having secondary effects that are strong enough on their own to be a separate perk. Mft's haste is already very strong, why does it also have endurance on pickup, when buckle up can do the same for you (and the downed team mate). UW first effect gives you info, interrupts and can thus trigger DMS or cancel some channeling actions (totems, box searches), why give it blindness as well? While occasional blindness on its own is not a big deal, with UW you can reliably shut down auras for the majority of the game! Which is devastating for solo Q. The only other option for (near) unlimited blindness is Third Seal, which can be destroyed, and you have to work for it to get it applied to everyone (hitting them with M1). With UW, you just get it for the price of opening a locker, so basically free. If the blindness part of UW was a separate perk, it surely would not be meta, but it would be the best and easiest perk to reliably apply blindness on the survivors. So if you are really fed up with WoO, you could just equip that as a counter.
So what should be done about these perks? Easy, remove the secondary effects. For Mft, we do not even need a separate perk, since buckle up can fill that gap. For UW, put the blindness part into an oncoming killer perk or just add a general perk for it. It does not have to be activated by opening a locker, could be something else, it just should be similarly easy to apply. E.g., it could automatically apply blindness in a chase (hard-counter to WoO, like Mindbreaker hard-countering Fogwise). I know counter-perks are frowned upon, but such situational blindness impacts soloQ way less than general blindness effect tied to TR or alike.
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yes. these two perks need hard nerfed but the devs are trying to avoid that as much as possible.
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