Thoughts on new bug fix patch? (Borgo and SM change)
Honestly it sounds pretty awfull. So we went from 8 pallety that is for sure quite low to more than 2x?! 18 my gosh, so we go back to pre-rework pallet city, what the hell... It's like two buttons: make it useless or make it overpowered.
And SM addon change is awfull too. Why? That base cooldown is allready long and this made her more smooth and fun to play, it wasnt any good strong addon, just helped you set up bit faster. Now it is just niche weird addon that makes drones not rotate? Sounds like meme addon what thr hell.
I am disapointed. What are you thoughts guys?
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The amount of pallets doesn't mean much. We need to see if they are all safe pallets or just meaningless filler pallets.
For example the reason The Game map is so annoying isn't because it has a lot of pallets but because most of those said pallets are all safe and there isn't much you can do but to break them each time.
So let's see how Borgo pallets are instead of jumping to a conclusion because of the number increase. Also 8 pallets was silly.
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I think they did the cooldown add-on change to nerf the perma undetectable Skully, though why they didn't replace the undetectable add-on is beyond me.
I will test the new add-on though, it might be interesting as i think you could actually become more consistant with good set-up.
But lets be honest, the most important change is that the WASSSSSSUP mask is back!
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On Shattered Square: To clarify, this is not a guaranteed number, but the absolute maximum. The short version is the game tries to place pallets a certain distance away from each other. If the minimum number of pallets have been reached and there's no more pallet spawn locations available far enough away from another pallet, it will stop spawning pallets prematurely. Or in other words, once the deadzones are filled, it will stop spawning pallets. You are not guaranteed to have 18 pallets spawn- in fact it would be very unlikely to happen.
For The Skull Merchant, Low Profile mode was causing an issue which allowed her to stay Undetectable indefinitely (the cooldown was shorter than the duration of the Undetectable effect). This new version offers a different way to use her drones, letting you set up a static 'scan wall' of sorts rather than a rotating beam.
Post edited by Peanits on10 -
Skull Merchant is still the most hated killer in the game and gets free injuries out of nowhere. They needed to tone it down a little so that is a great change to see. Borgo we will have to see. 18 seems like a lot, but the map was massively empty of pallets so this will bring it up to a similar place as other maps.
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> It's like two buttons: make it useless or make it overpowered.Describe BHVR making any balance decisions in one sentence.
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Does this apply to all maps?
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Ok and the minimum number is...? Because if 18 is the unlikely maximum but the minimum number is 16 there's no difference. If the minimum number is 10 that's another story
Btw it's nice to see another urgent change to something because survivors cry about it
Still wait to see bahdam, garden, mother, the game fixed but no worries it's just a killer issue, nothing urgent
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She's actually fun to play. She's fine since she can't 3 gen
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im just happy this might have been fixed.
edit : it's not fixed...
Post edited by OrangeBear on4 -
I hope it's referring to what we think it is and not one random obscure bug LOL...
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Yeah lol... 😬can't be for sure until i play an entire day without getting it i think.
And whilst i am still talking about it i am happy it might have been fixed but i'm still pretty frustrated and the complete lack of communication around it. It got to the point where i feel like BHVR were completely ignoring it. I replied to their tweets i participated in loads of threads here and i tried to get Mandy's attention and i got nothing. It felt bad considering the problem makes the game pretty much unplayable since the DC penalty could get too high.
That's all sorry if i derailed this thread...
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If the issue with Low Power Mode was the infinite Undetectable, wouldn't a simpler solution to have been either to A) nerf the number slightly so the overlap doesn't happen any more? or B) add a reduction to the Undetectable duration to the effect of LPM?
Either of these solutions would have addressed the infinite Undetectable problem without effectively deleting one of SM's staple addons: LPM was the kind of addon you could run every game and feel pretty good about (the Toy Sword or Engravings of this Killer) and straight up removing it in favour of a new, situational effect is, from the POV of a dedicated SM fan, nonsense.
I don't mind the effect of new LPM, but I do mind that we completely lost old LPM to do it. If an addon had to be deleted to make room for the new non-rotating drone effect, why not remove an addon that's genuinely useless and nobody uses like Adi Valente Issue 1? SM has a clutch of pretty garbage addons and to lose one of the truly good ones feels awful.
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Sorry to say but it's not fixed...
Just got out of a match on borgo. 3 people turned into bots at the start of it and i disconnected from dedicated server again towards the end. 30 minute penalty...
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Uhhh, look how fast they fixed Mastermind's grab Hitbox or how fast they turned around Mastermind's Killswitch because of Anniversary. Or how much tweaks they applied to Singularity after its release. Just examples but they handle Killer crying too.
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We are coming up to almost a year on broken MFT. Yall already said it's being addressed. Takes mere weeks if even that to rush in killer nerfs, why is addressing a permanent speed boost taking so long for survivors? It has really turned the game into a completely bitter experience for m1 killers.
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MfT came out this summer.
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Female survivors vaults are broken again.
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A static scan wall isn't going to help against good survivors, if it takes away the ability for the drones to rotate. Survivors will just run up to the line, crouch walk for the smallest amount of time, then start running again.
The only way this new addon could be useful, is if it caused the "rotate" command to alternate between "stop rotation" and "reverse rotation", so that you could catch survivors trying to do this run/crouch counterplay. (For example, the drones would cycle between "zero rotation", "rotate clockwise", "zero rotation", "rotate counterclockwise")
Changing drone rotation in mid chase, is one of the very few mechanically skillful things this killer can do, and if the new addon completely removes rotation, then it's a massive downgrade for any Skull Merchant players that know how to change drone rotations to catch survivors trying to run through a drone area.
Update: As another example, maybe the drones could start with zero rotation, but the rotate commands would still be functional, but the killer couldn’t stop a drone that’s rotating.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on0 -
I still see a lot of survivors give up still once they see it's a SM. Not that I condone that at all, but I don't get annoyed or upset when people do it. I get why they would. I think SM just needs a full reboot even if it means changing her power completely and replace drones with something else.
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Though people have brought up frustrations concerning her cooldown being unfun to play with. Personally I don't think chaining undetectable is an issue since you have to sacrifice placing drones down in unusual spots since you had just a 0.5s window (2.1s if you ran both LPM and lighting).
Wouldnt the better choice to be nerfing the add on to 15%, or reworking the add on like it is now but reducing the base kit cooldown to either 8 or 9s?
It's a bit of a concern since a lot of the people I talk to and that I know are pushed away from playing smerchant because of her cooldown, similar to new sadako.
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That's good though. Less people playing sm, the better.
Please nerf that failed killer more
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The main problem is the infinite stealth was pretty much the best part of the killer. Against survivors that know how to run/crouch the beams, being required to scan a survivor 4 times before they get hindered is a lot of scanning.
And the infinite stealth was the best part, because survivors excessively hiding and excessively pre leaving generators immediately when the visual terror radius lights up, is the most boring and frustrating part of playing killer.
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Fast vaults are messed up again for survivor 😤🫠
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Really? How?! I am dying inside.
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I haven't seen new SM since the rework released. I imagine since Trapper is more accessible everyone would rather play him. But I imagine a stationary drone sensor would make scans easier to get on jungle gyms or many indoor maps where pathing is tight
As for Borgo, sounds like the added pallets are going to change very little considering the safety of tiles as been reduced.
Just initial impressions.
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I'm still trying to figure out how SM's new addon would be the most applicable. Maybe indoor areas to watch doorways in say Shack or something.
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I agree she's awful, spam drones> hold w with permanent haste> brute force any loop> gg, she's still a free win low effort killer, easiest m1 killer in the game by far, nerf her some more we won't miss it
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Female vaults broken again, prestiges back in pre-lobbies, mostly irrelevant bugs getting fixed while significant ones are still pending, Borgo seemingly back to being a nightmarish map for killers... This is not looking too good.
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For The Skull Merchant, Low Profile mode was causing an issue which allowed her to stay Undetectable indefinitely (the cooldown was shorter than the duration of the Undetectable effect).
Oh no. Could you imagine if the killer was able to get undetectable infinitely? It's not like
Wraith, Ghostface, Pig,some killers are already able to do that and have it be a completely fine part of their kit! This is why I am highly sceptical of the devs. Their reasons for changing things are often completely detached from the reality of the game they're developing.This new version offers a different way to use her drones, letting you set up a static 'scan wall' of sorts rather than a rotating beam.
This new effect is worthless. You're cutting down on the ground covered by your drone in exchange for nothing. If you want a specific doorway covered by a drone it's actually better to have the drone rotate since it makes approaching the drone slightly harder than if it wasn't. They're easily avoidable enough as it is by just crouching or standing still. Why did anyone think that making an add-on so the drones were even easier to avoid was a good idea???
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However they all have an audio cue that let's you know they are near, Hens made a video about skull merchant lately mentioning this and said she might be the stealthiest because of not having such a sound cue.
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No they don't. The only audio that any of them produce are their breathing noises when they're literally right behind someone. Wraith has an add-on that completely removes his bell noise. And no one uses Pig's ambush attack so they just un-crouch. For all intents and purposes, they are completely silent until they can land a hit.
But somehow this is a problem with SM? Yeah right!
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It got fixed now because Borgo is literally where their current time and resources are dedicated. It got a rework in the latest major update recently. Why would they place it on the to-do list for later down the track when they are literally in the midst of crossing the T's and dotting the I's of the latest update? They're not going to work on it when they're doing the next map (Garden of Joy apparently) now are they?
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Ghostface's clothes ruffle a little bit and you can hear that at short distance. Pig, as you mentioned, breathes loud enough for close-by survivors to hear her. And Wraith has a snarling sound you can hear once he gets close to you, and has to uncloak. Skull Merchant, as far as I'm aware, doesn't really have anything like that now since they reduced the volume of her footsteps.
As for why perma-Undetectable with Low Power Mode was a problem: The difference compared to other stealth killers was that Merchant could be permanently stealthy with LPM while still being able to both attack survivors and move at normal movement speed, in addition to having a strong chase power. Wraith has to uncloak to be able to attack, which slows him down and is something that survivors can both see and hear (and the addon that silences the bell is Iridescent which justifies it being that powerful), Pig moves slower while crouched, and Ghostface can have his power taken away by survivors, putting it on a cooldown.
The only real downside Skull Merchant had for doing this strategy with LPM to get permanent stealth was sometimes being forced to place drones in awkward locations in order to keep her stealth active, which wasn't a big deal since recalling drones no longer has a cooldown and using the radar doesn't slow you down anymore. No other killer, including stealth killers, can get permanent stealth with all the upsides that Skull Merchant could get with LPM. She still has good, on-demand stealth even after today's update, she just can't get it non-stop anymore, and that's fine because she never should've been able to do that to begin with.
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Yes they do? Ghostface has his cloak making noises, Wraith has his gnarling, Pig has a noise when she is standing up as well, the blade that comes out again makes a noise, so yeah, you re wrong on that...
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I think part of this should also be tile safety. Since you can have in some cases much fewer pallets, but how safe is each pallet? Which in most cases will make fewer but safer pallets a much stronger setup than more but unsafer pallets.
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The only thing that was wrong with my statement was my wording. When I said "The only audio that any of them produce are their breathing noises..." I should have specified that I meant the unique noises that each killer makes. The fact remains that these noises are only audible when the killer is right next to someone and moments away from landing a hit. And none of these killer's stealth are broken in any way.
Which leads me to explain that the claim that SM's stealth was broken is clearly wrong when compared to every other killer that has both easier access to undetectable and additional benefits on top of that.
- Wraith can keep undetectable as long as he wants and gets a considerable speed boost by default. Add-ons only make his cloak stronger with options to increase is action speed, instantly decloak upon breaking something, constant aura reading while cloaked, and completely removing the audio que for him uncloaking.
- Ghostface can keep undetectable until he hits someone or a survivor spots him. And can expose survivors to get insta-downs. The add-ons that enhance his stealth allow him to use it more often or get extra benefits after exposing survivors.
- Pig's stealth is the only one that can be argued to be worse than SM because it makes her much slower than Ghostface and doesn't give her a quick speed boost like Wraith does when exiting it. But it synergises with her main power very well by allowing her to ambush people around Jigsaw boxes to potentially get free downs.
Now let me explain how SM's "Stealth" works:
- She has to constantly micro-manage drones to keep her undetectable since it lasts for only 8 seconds.
- In doing so she is likely to place a bunch of drones that aren't in good positions and have to be recalled and placed later, which takes more time thanks to her drone's cooldown.
- She can't her keep undetectable up 100% of the time since by default it wears off before she can place another drone to refresh it.
- The only add-on that allowed her to do what 3 other killers already do by default has just been reworked to be quite possibly the most useless killer add-on in the game since Trapper's Padded Jaws.
- With her only useful stealth add-on nerfed, the only add-on remaining that aims to buff her stealth, the Iridescent Unpublished Manuscript, is completely in the hands of survivors in order for it to activate.
There's no valid argument to be made about SM's stealth being broken. It was one of the worst stealth abilities in the game. And with the nerf of her Low Power Mode add-on it's even worse.
But since Hens made a video with a click-baity title that involved him stomping randoms people falsely assumed that something in SM's new kit was redeemable. It isn't. She's still the worst designed killer in the game and removing what limited options she has will just encourage people to continue doing the one thing she's good at; camping.
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the skull merchant add-on change is bad. the add-on made her more fluid to play with cooldown. new add-on is terrible and meme add-on that might as well give 200% bp. She will still be at chasing without add-on. it is just add-on made her less clunky to play.
you still get opening hits with GF if you hit out of cloak most of the time. same is true for wraith. as long there is an object to hide as you uncloak, you normally get hit. no reason for them to change LPM to a joke add-on.
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I don't get what's the problem of "free injuries" from Skull Merchant. Legion and Plague also have powers with free injuries, and less countereable than the skull merchant one in fact, and almost nobody complain about them, well some people used to complain about Legion, but about how boring is to face them not about their free hits.
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Borgo: Still red also i played a game on new borgo and its pallet town awfull(for killer).
SM: Tell me you use a excel sheet without tell me. Most addons are bad,that addon is usefull then got destroyed into a meme addon. Blight still untouched.
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It still allowed him to rather consistently get Gen grabs since there is no sound cue that she is approaching... Yes the others are rather short distance but might still give you enough of a warning to reach a tile by yourself or sprint burst away.
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I mean complaining about having to mend all the time, what people basically did is basically complaining him getting a free tag ^^ But they don't complain that much since to get the down most of the time needs to loop normally, unless he runs never sleep pills, which is still super annoying... Depending on the map
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SM also makes the exact same short-range noises that the other stealth killers make. Except she suffers from all of the drawbacks I have already mentioned. This point doesn't support your argument. Among the others that you haven't bothered addressing.
Also: "It still allowed him to rather consistently get Gen grabs.." is just wrong. Unless the survivors aren't paying attention to the game there's no way to consistently grab them off gens. Especially with how buggy DbD's grab system has always been.
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I don't think she has any breathing noise or foot steps or anything, she does not have sound cues like the stealth killers.
I never said she was stronger, just stealthier, so I didn't engage In a debate about the other points.
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I think you're completely off the mark in understanding where the problem is here.
Wraith can't injure survivors while invisible, he's forced to uncloak, which takes time and slows him before he can swing, which also means he has to drop invis.
Pig similarly has to either stand up and be detectable, or growl loudly to hit. Using her power takes her out of stealth, and she's very slow while stealthed.
Ghostie is the only one who can move normally and attack while stealthed, but it takes several seconds of setup time and survivors can literally cancel it.
SM has full mobility, no slow and can even gain her move speed to be faster, and injure survivors with her normal attacks while undetectable. There's no way to turn off the drones mid chase, which is the only counter play, without giving up a free hit, and you're likely not gonna finish the hack anyway.
Saying these are all identical is misunderstanding the issue at best.
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"We added more pallets but less safe loops" is honestly the worst take the devs have had in a long time..
There is no point in even having a pallet if it offers no safety. The amount of times you can throw a pallet, only for the killer to have used the time it takes you to have done it to walk around and virtually be next to you by the time it has dropped is ridiculous at the moment. This is why pre throwing has become a meta; because using them to stun is absolutely a waste of time and a hindrance now.
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New patch broke vaulting and it's still not fixed, making killers get gimp free hits.
So therefore, I hate it.
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The only person whose off the mark here is you.
I made a great effort in explaining how each of these killer's powers are different not identical as you claim. My point was that every other stealth killer had not only better stealth than SM, but also had additional benefits on top of that. I made this point to refute the erroneous claim that SM's stealth was "broken" and in need of a nerf, which it clearly wasn't.
The point you are apparently responding to, and a point I never made, is that every single other stealth killer has the same power and therefore, have stronger stealth than SM. And the disconnect between the reality of the game and your counter arguments attempting to disprove this strawman show.
Wraith can't injure survivors while invisible, he's forced to uncloak, which takes time and slows him before he can swing, which also means he has to drop invis.
You conveniently leave out the fact that Wraith moves considerably faster than a normal killer while stealth'ed and is able to gain additional benefits on top of that speed while cloaked using add-ons. The downsides he has of having to uncloak and slow himself down before he can land a hit doesn't make his stealth worse than SM. It makes it balanced. And even then it easily one of the most powerful stealth abilities in the killer roster.
Pig similarly has to either stand up and be detectable, or growl loudly to hit. Using her power takes her out of stealth, and she's very slow while stealth'ed.
No experienced Pig player uses her ambush attack out of stealth because it is highly telegraphed for the reasons you just mentioned. Instead, they simply uncrouch when they're close enough to land a basic attack or if they can't approach the survivor without being seen. Which is a fact I already mentioned in my previous comment.
Ghostie is the only one who can move normally and attack while stealthed, but it takes several seconds of setup time and survivors can literally cancel it.
What set-up time? GF's stealth can be activated instantly if it's off cooldown! If you're referring to his ability to expose survivors, then you should know it's an ability that compliments his stealth but is still separate from it. Which is just another reason why SM's stealth is inferior to other killers. Speaking of which, I think it's about time I address your incredibly inaccurate description of SM's stealth.
SM has full mobility, no slow and can even gain her move speed to be faster...
SM can only gain speed if someone happens to get scanned by her drones. But is SM using her power for stealth, and thus not actively chasing anyone, there's no reason for her to get a speed boost since survivors can easily avoid getting scanned by her drones! Especially since drones in, and I use heavy quotations for this next term, "Stealth" mode have a clear circle around them that shows their scanning radius.
Unless a survivor falls asleep on top of the W key during a game, (Which to be fair is not an impossibility in a SM game), then there's no reason why SM would be getting a speed boost during stealth!
There's no way to turn off the drones mid chase, which is the only counter play, without giving up a free hit, and you're likely not gonna finish the hack anyway.
This has nothing to do with SM's stealth ability. And thus completely irrelevant to the point you are attempting to respond to.
Ok, serious question, why are you as adamantly defending the nerf of SM's stealth? It was the only part of her kit that encouraged her to do something other than camp. Now that it's weaker, she has even less reason not to do just that since that's all her rework has allowed her to be good at!
Do you just not want the killer you presumably enjoy playing to have interesting decisions to make during a game?
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I dont think theirs are free. With plagues there is counter play to dodge the injury such as juking and ducking puke. You can also choose when to be infected by not interacting with infected items. Legion has a long delay in between injury and leaving power. You can also mind game him to miss or land pallet. Both of those Killers require the killer to do something with their skill. This is not true of Skull Merchant.
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I've played on the new Borgo a few times and here is my initial take after ~7 times playing it. At first, I didn't really recognize much of a difference other than the map being scaled down. The more I played on the map and really started to familiarize myself with the layout it started to seem more visually cluttered and loops were watered down. It's still hard to put my finger on, but the closest comparison I'd make is the new Eerie rework. Still a strong main building, but outside tiles are spawning multiple unsafe loops, gens that spawn tightly together, and small deadzones. It's not the worst rework, not the best, probably right in the middle.
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