Tunneling and proxycamping is a must. And it's not even a hot take.
Comments
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It's more and more people's take on "winning" the game
MMR only taking Kills and Escapes...Grades not mattering like at all
Gens taking 90 charges to complete... healing taking 24 charges... hooks take 120 seconds to Kill Survivors... Slugging takes 4 minutes
Gens and Hook states need to be added to MMR... Chases would be to hard to grade
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You're thinking "How can we make tunnelling not as punishing for survivors" instead of "How can we reward the killer for not tunnelling"?
Balance being where it is though, you can't buff non-tunnelling to be more than competitive with tunnelling without increasing the winrates for killers, which are currently roughly on par with survivors.
You'd have to pair it with nerfs to tunnelling anyway.
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To be fair, it's easy to see why an MMR system would want to only take wins and losses into account instead of anything else.
Imagine a killer who manages to get a 4K at five gens. You could argue that's not really reflective of any real skill on the killer's part because it was either abusing super OP stuff or the result of the survivors massively messing up, but that killer should still go up in MMR either way to lessen the chance of it happening again.
Or imagine someone who uses Bubba to facecamp people to death (before the AFC implementation, anyway). That killer similarly isn't showcasing much skill... but should still go up in MMR so that they go against survivors who have a better chance of countering it.
Pretty much any situation in which you would want the MMR system to take something else into account wouldn't actually benefit from it. Looking purely at wins and losses works out better and simpler overall.
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Nurse and blight can be left alone they're enough OP to win without help. But everyone else could use a friend and it could be less powerful than the main killer more like just helper. Gens time can be shortened then they take too long now anyway.
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Sounds like one of those absurdly short movie reviews that encourages everyone to avoid seeing.
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They're not a must just tactical tools in the killer arsenal.
Apply them when needed. That's all.
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I'm glad to hear more than mft is going to be nerfed. As a killer player I agree that the anti tunnel should be stronger as conspicuous actions exist now. It's one less person on gens and healing others.
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I just had a killer hard tunnel out first one guy, then the next, then slugging for a 4k, and told me after the game he had to do that in order to win. Game ended with just 2 gens done.
The "have to do" thing is just an excuse to take the easy (yet unfun for opponents) way to a 4k.
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Didnt he say himself that the survs he went against werent the greatest?
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He said that of the matches he didn't show (or maybe only the last or 2nd to last match) in the Youtube vid IIRC, however that is standard DBD matchmaking and shouldn't be discounted.
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yeah; that shouldn't matter though and in fact makes my point even moreso - if one of the top rated players in the world regularly goes against mediocre survivors that means an average killer should also go against mediocre survivors; the average survivor team you go against won't be that great
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Yeah but the difference is you dont have to be necessarily good at the game as survivor when they just increase more and more pallets/strong main buildings or windows to waste a lot of time for the killer. Simply because spreading on gens is a thing a LOT of the killer roster can't compete with to the point where even mediocre survivors could reliably 2-3 out if they focused on escaping.
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It seems that map reworks are producing more dead zones and fewer safe/good pallets. What does that mean for your belief that bad or mediocre survivors can win by wasting time on loops?
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The only map rework to produce more dead zones within the last year has been borgo which is getting its max pallet count increased to 18. The Gas Heaven and Blood Lodge rework just made the main buildings even more accessible by spreading out the fillers more evenly to the point where I played survivor and didn't even try because I could just W to the next pallet before a killer could attempt a mind game.
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Rancid Abbatoir is another. One corner is a massive deadzone, and it's one saving grace was the Harvester but they've gone and gotten rid of the haystack again so the gen in that zone is a death trap.
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but they don't, is the thing. it doesn't matter what survivors are theoretically capable of, assuming they try; if practical experience shows they usually aren't putting in that kind of effort
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Hens is alot better then the average killer and the survivors he's versing in general Arent close to his lvl.
The average killers are also getting the same survivors hens is getting or close to their skill lvl.
Hens can beat them playing like that cause hes alot better but if the skill lvl is close(ish) you generally wont be able to do that. Maybe its not impossible but more so in a more consistent matter to try and win.
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To be honest Hens is a pretty good player. I think we'd have to see an average killer to reach a conclusion.
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lot of people here are so close to the point it's actually sitting in their lap
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If the point you're trying to make is "average killers are just bad and need to crutch camping/tunneling" then it's not much of a point because people are already telling you that yes, you can win by not tunneling/camping/slugging/3-genning but you'd have to be a lot better than your opponent to get away with that.
Realistically you can't ask for killers to be better/more skillful cause the average is always the majority. Same goes for survivor. People keep saying "omg survivors are so bad no wonder they're losing", while ignoring that the average (solo) survivor lacks a lot of the tools to deal with a lot of those strategies and blaming it on their skill instead of the game's design.
It's also kind of inevitable, the longer people play a game, the better they'll get and they'll optimize it more. You cannot recreate the playerbase as it was 3-4 years ago. The meta was different, the perks were stronger/weaker, items were stronger/weaker etc. And if you were to bring all that back, you would still not be able to force people to play in the way you want cause attitudes have changed.
Just two days ago I had a Mirror Scratched Myers on RPD who was camping just outside the range of the anti-camping mechanic. He was not proxy-camping he was primarily camping. He was staying at a distance waiting for someone to go for the save to get free hits in or hook trades and rarely tried to apply pressure elsewhere when someone was on the hook. As you can see the game's design simply did nothing for cases such as these because this build on Myers also allows the killer to know when someone is coming for the rescue, you cannot sneak in. Now I was the last one alive and we had a little last chase, idk if he was trying less or just not good at it, but he did not catch me until the entity killed me which would explain why he would rather play in that way than have to chase survivors when he's not particularly good. If he was confident in his chasing skills he might not have to resort to such playstyle, but it's also to be expected. Like average survivors aren't good at every single skill survivors need, killers are the same they cannot be good at everything on average. Don't tell me survivors who just pump out gens are doing anything skillful and a team could bring toolboxes and play stealthy, or have just one person get chased and pump out gens.
It's a problem with the game's design that doesn't incentivize interaction or reward it. It's just you see camping and tunneling more, but I see 3-genning a lot which is even worse cause you have long as hell games (yesterday I played against Knight for 30+ mins, two separate games ) and apparently the way to counter that strategy is again coordination but when you're solo good luck with that and telling people we have to start from this gen, or double up this gen and no one even talks about it anymore cause eruption has gotten nerfed, but if you bring 3-gen control perks you can still have such long games.
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It's not "must" - it's just easy mode and human beings tend to choose the path of the least resistance. Simple as. This topic, its title and plenty of posts here are just killer mains' fiction in genre "fantasy"
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I think it's very relevant to note that the statement "tunneling and proxycamping is a must" comes with the caveat "if you desperately want to win but are not very good at the game"
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I mean, I don't know anyone who doesn't wanna win? The difference I see in the degree and the way they want to win. Some want the best possible chance so they play Blight/Nurse, others just want to win with other killers. It feels really silly to say that and similarly when killers say it to solo survivors when we bring up valid points about the game's design.
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Tunneling and Camping... being considered not skillful... is like saying doing Gens and being in chase isn't skillful
Knowing when is a lot more skillful then just doing it... like just fixing Gens isn't the same as spreading out the Gens
Or saving BNP for the later Gens VS. using it on the first Gen... Or Pre-dropping pallets VS. Greeding pallets
Or leaving the area when you the heartbeat or staying around to see if the Killer does come
There's a lot to say... but saying Camping and Tunneling isn't skillful is just ridiculous
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Tunneling or camping when the situation call for it is fine (and harder than it looks if the survivors are good). But if you feel like they are necessary to win then you probably need to work on your fundamentals (Pathing/Spawns/Mindgames/Builds/Pressure/etc).
I think players who default to camping or tunneling as a "must" are doing themselves a disservice. If you do this you will win more but will eventually hit a point where a lot of your opponents are good enough to handle camping/tunneling and you won't have the skills to keep up with them.
Ever notice a killer that does poorly in the match, and it feels like they don't belong in your lobby? To the point where you can accurately predict that they will have noed? That is a similar principle. They won a lot by using a pub-stomping crutch and increased their mmr but never properly learned how to play well.
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You don’t have to tunnel, and proxy camp every game. You don’t need 10K hours either.
It’s about knowing WHEN to do all those things as killer. As you can tunnel/camp and still lose. Survivors will only complain when you tunneled/camped properly!
For example, if I manage to catch what I believe to be the team’s best runner before the crucial gens popped… I will proxy camp that punk until second phase. 100% of the time. Survs will ALWAYS try to unhook their best teammate. On some teams one player can be as strong as two, maybe even three players combined! You have to be able to discern this, and play accordingly. Don’t chase the best runners at all. Let them go on Gen duty.
DBD is a race against time...
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Keep in mind their matches have special rules that are not realistic in normal matches so that the killer actually stands a chance. Rules such as no duplicate perks allowed for survivors, only one deliverance perk allowed across all 4 survivors, banning certain maps, etc...
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The Coldwind maps, also reworked this year, now include a lot of dead zones. The reworked Eerie has more dead zones than it did prior as well. So no it’s not just Borgo.
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I mean is doing gens really skillful? Unless you're up against impossible skillcheck doctor I don't think it is mechanically difficult. It's also why killers dislike stealthy survivors who bring 4 toolboxes cause you cannot gauge their skill-level but they still win by bypassing the interaction with killer.
Having game knowledge on what gens to prioritize etc. is a different thing, but that doesn't necessarily translate to mechanical skill. That's what people mean when they talk about skill, mechanical skill coupled with game sense.
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The reason I say "desperately" was to distinguish between people who want to win every game no matter what, and people who would prefer to win but are OK not winning so long if they get something else out of the game, like a fun chase or getting better at macro
I think you're confusing this with something else? This was an experiment where a bunch of people played killer pub games without tunneling, camping or using killer powers. Because it was pub matches against randoms, using the built in MMR, there were no survivor restrictions (not like you can force survivors to play by specific rules), just killer restrictions.
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If you place a survivor and killer (Let's say Wraith), with equal experience and skill level - this survivor will run you alone for 2+ minutes (depends on a map).
With 2+ min chases, killer will end up with 2-3 hooks (luckly) and 4 escapes.
Yes, you can just abandon the chase and go for someone else, but here's some troubles:
- You may have 0 idea where the others are. Result in a wasting more time traveling the map.
- The other survivors may have the same experience and skill level, as previous one you decided to leave.
The issue with this game imo - M1 killers, or killers being inefficient with downs. With no matter how many hours you got into the game. It's how those killers were designed.
In a match without tunneling and proxy-camping, the killer should down survivors within 20-40 seconds to be efficient and have a fair chance to 3-4k.
Since those killers cannot afford to down survivors quickly enough, they have no chance but tunnel 1 survivor out as fast as possible, in order to achieve "something".
This is a consequence of having tiers with killers. Unbalancing issue.
One day it may end up in a global pick rate decrease for any M1 killers. They become extremely rare. Which is a VERY bad sign.
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So... mechanical skill is more important them gamesense???
This is just too much... thanks for the insight
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Are you really gonna call a team who brought 4 BNPs and speedran the game skillful?
What is skillful play to you?
Is a survivor who can do gens but lasts only 10 seconds in a chase skillful? How can you evaluate their skill expression when the only time you interact with them they fumble?
I also said that when people refer to skill they mean a combination of both mechanical skill and game sense, it's also why we say Blight and Nurse have a high skill floor and skill ceiling, cause they require mechanical skill to play well. And killers like Trapper are considered not as difficult in comparison when it comes to mechanical skill. Am I saying something revolutionary here or is it only revolutionary for DBD's standards?
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They are crutches used by new killer mains or people that are bad at chasing. You'll never get better if you keep your training wheels on every game and exploit one sided mechanics.
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If you have to tunnel, you just aren't good at killer or you ran into one of the rarest of rare truly sweaty amazing 4 man SWFs (but there aren't as many of them as people like to believe).
Tunneling is simply the desperate act of an unskilled killer.
Watch streams, watch good killer players, and you will see them get 3 and 4ks without using slug or tunnel.
If you are having to tunnel, ask yourself why and if you have to keep tunneling to win then you aren't actually getting any better at the game.
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Not really... it matter more about how they use the BNP's and which Gens they get done (like the order of Gens)
IDK at this point... I feel like Gamesense matters more then mechanical skill
Again if they don't have much experience in chase then of course they won't last long (like me)
No you're not but on one hand playing Survivor is more on gamesense and Killer it's more on mechanical skill... IDK though this is just my opinion
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Isn't choosing gens to do first require knowledge mostly of the map itself and possible gen spawns as well as recognizing possible 3-gen situation? How does that knowledge help me prevent a 3-gen when the killer can also assess the situation on the same level and is not some random newbie. Will knowing how to do gens win me the game against such a killer?
Can a killer who is good mechanically win without game sense? Aren't we going back to my point that being both mechanically skilled and having game sense make up what people call "skill"?
For survivors I understand there are less ways these days to express their skills, but isn't hitting clutch flashlights as well as flashbangs count as skillful, cause you also need game sense and a lot of knowledge of the map to do those things successfully. Or the survivor mind gaming the killer shows skill, cause it's about making a lot of small decisions in the span of a few seconds? I'm not against survivors having more mechanical prerequisites (although I'd claim that playing survivor on keyboard is more mechanically demanding as opposed to a controllerbut allows you more possibilities) but I think BHVR doesn't wanna give survivors such tools either because they want survivor gameplay to be highly accessible or to avoid having survivors who can solo carry games but outperforming everyone.
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At this point yes we are... LOL
I have pretty decent gamesense but worse mechanical skill (I am my own worst critic)
I think we are agreeing but from different perspectives
Also the fact that this game is just different overall... or is that just me
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People consistently fail to understand what this experiment is about. It's proving that it's a skill difference issue when people struggle to kill. Demonstrably, if you are good enough, you can win the vast majority of your matches without camping and tunnelling, and even do so while refraining from using a killer ability altogether. These players are in the same public matchmaking pool with the same MMR system that anyone complaining about killer being "impossible" and such is. Yet they prove that it is possible to basically never lose as killer, the determining factor being skill. And of course, there's a universe of difference between "killer is impossible" and "winning every match without camping and tunnelling as a pure M1 killer". People can freely camp, tunnel, and use the strongest of killers and loadouts every time. And those good players in that case can go on wrecking sprees of hundreds and thousands of matches in a row. Average players even without putting in thousands of hours surely then can at least arrive at a place where the game is not "impossible".
The best thing anyone can do if they struggle as killer is to try to improve, reflect critically on their matches, watch guides and better players play, practice specific things, play more, use different builds and strategies, and so on. It is not a game balance issue ultimately, because provably, you can overcome any such potential balance issues with skill, to the extent that you will basically always win. This is of course in no small part due to matchmaking, but the matchmaking simply is what it is, without it changing in ways where it is no longer provably true that you can become good enough to handedly and decisively win the vast majority of your killer matches by being good at the game, the best thing to do if you want to win will always be to ty and improve your gameplay, not to demand the devs make the game easier.
Which isn't to say there aren't balance issues left to address, including moderating the strength of SWF (coordinated, voice communication-using SWFs are as blatant a balance issue as Nurse and Blight) and improving some of the relatively weaker killers. But the balance state of the game absolutely isn't the biggest issue when it comes to players that lament the difficulty of succeeding as killer. The only "issue" good killer players maybe have is that they can't keep up a 4k at 3-4 gens streak for too long, because sometimes it actually happens that survivors get 2-3 gens done before they inevitably all die...
For the record: For anyone that is struggling on killer, I would absolutely recommend tunnelling. As soon as the first survivor you hooked is unhooked, drop whatever it is you're doing to go back and chase them again, until they're out of the match. Too few of the too many players that allege that the game is impossibly difficult do this, yet they would realize that even just this one simple strategic adjustment will drastically change the dynamics and results of their matches. Survivors hate this one simple trick!
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I dont see why I should play the most fair way possible only to be matched against hardcore teams while people tunnel get weaker teams.
I would not agree on that. Let those people who take shortcut to win more, matched against people who take shortcut to win more.
The idealist of the Devs for MMR is perfect.
It only encourage people to tunnel more because that reward them more than fair playing.
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10-12 hook games without tunneling happen if the Survivors are less experienced/weaker players than the Killer. However when the Survivors are much more closer in terms of Skill level, there is lesser room for mistakes as Killer. An unfavorable map/swf comms/bnp tollboxes or syptic medkits are more likely to sway the game in the Survivors’ favor unless someone messes up really bad.
For example, I do double/triple vaults on Shack window occasionally as Killer. If I see a Killer do that when I play Survivor, I know I would just leave shack altogether. That doesn’t make me a more experienced player than the Killer, I have a similar knowledge/experience level as them which led to me buying more time in chase.
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