Tunneling and proxycamping is a must. And it's not even a hot take.
You probably get the idea from a title.
In short: Tunneling in the current gameplay paste is a must-have tactic for some killer roaster to have a chance for at least 2-3k.
You phisically can not take away this tactic from killers without any downsides for survivors.
Now that killers have no face-camping and hook-grabs (thank God), tunneling is not something that developers should go against without fighting the gens speed issue. Yes this is exactly an issue.
So if developers announce something like "Anti-tunneling" mechanic, be prepared for a huge nerf to survivors main objective - Gens, or a huge buffs to killers.
Either gens be much longer to repair, or killers will get some strong perks such as Deadlock or Corrupt, or maybe even Pain rez as basekit.
You can't take away a valuable tactic such as tunneling without any downsides for other side. There will be nerfs to survivors, or buffs to killers to compensate.
Comments
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The thing is; the changes have to happen on the killers that currently "have to" tunnel. Trapper just got those changes and while it doesn't make him S-tier (which it shouldn't in the first place) it does make him a very viable killer across different skill levels.
What if the survivor side was changed by, say, increasing gen times? It would only amplify the gap between already above average killers and the rest. Those who already stomp would stomp even more (and guess what, the only strat against those is to try and break the friggin escape record and do gens asap).
Once all killers have a viable strategy that promotes dynamic and interactive gameplay on all sides it's, imo, imperative that one-sided strategies are removed from what's mechanically possible (and in the long run that includes tunneling and proxy-camping for killers as well as gen rushing for survivors).
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Don't forget they confirmed MFT nerf coming soon and most likely more meta perks like WoO, resilience, adrenaline, it will nerf survivor across the board
i don't see them doing "anti-tunnel mechanics" but DS should be buffed to help a bit, current DS is just pathetic I'm sorry, there are only 2 anti tunnel perks they need to be decent
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"Trapper just got those changes and while it doesn't make him S-tier (which it shouldn't in the first place) it does make him a very viable killer across different skill levels."
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Fun theory: matchmaking works better than the vast majority of dbd players think.
If we accept that as a working theory, we'll find that killers who tunnel need to tunnel, while killers who don't tunnel don't need to tunnel, as both groups will largely get similarly efficient opponents.
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*Trapper just got those changes and while it doesn't make him S-tier (which it shouldn't in the first place) it does make him a very viable killer across different skill levels.*
Trapper is a viable killer just screams to me that you haven't played against a decent survivors yet, if played killer at all.=) Sorry.
I respect your opinion, but recent Trapper's buffs got him nowhere in terms of gameplay, if I can be honest.=)
I don't know about camping, but tunneling yes, I do think I'm right about what I just said.=)
Don't get me wrong here, I do not like this tactic at all, I wish we could get rid of it, but I do understand that some killer roaster just need it in order to just not dissapear.
Without viable tactics to at least "Score something", no one will play anything aside from only strong killers. The game will become boring.
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hens' experiment disagrees
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Blight, Nurse and Spirit (with her best addons) certainly don't. They are so strong, that they can outpace survivors by quite a big margin.
Lower tier killers on the other hand have no way to keep up with the pace of the game, when survivors stop dilly dallying. How do you expect a Trapper to end his chases in 30 seconds or less? And that is what he would need to do when he also has to set up his Traps, reset them and wander around the map. Hitting a survivor is no longer a way to slow down the game. I'd argue it got somehow worse than back in the healing meta. Because now even free hits are worth less than nothing. You grant the survivor 3% Haste and a 9% action speed increase, so you punish yourself for hitting without downing.
The divide between the weaker and stronger killers grows larger and larger despite our best efforts to prevent that. And no amount of band aid fixes to Trapper will fix that. Because band aid fixes to not help with the actual issues. Which in Trapper's case are maps. For Clown it's his lack of mobility and the wasted time reloading. For Freddy it's pretty much everything and so on.
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"Me and many other top tier players"
Other than proving that people with ten thousand or so hours are incredibly good, that experiment has little to no relevance to 99.99% of players. That's less a rebuttal and more, "People who play the game professionally can do it, why can't you?"
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I'd bet it's more about killers you are playing
Some of them have built-in incentive not to tunnel (Myers, Pig), others are just strong enough to don't need it (Nurse, Blight).
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Yeah, it's always funny to see people bring streamers as an example of the game's balance. "Look, a person with 10000 hours playing against average public games teams is doing fine as a Trapper/Trickster/Clown, obviously they are very strong when they are played right", come on, those people can play perkless, addonless and with one hand tied and they'll still have better winrate than any other person on this forum, because they never get opponents of their level. Show me the winrate of Hens playing Trapper agains survivor teams with 10000 hours on each player, then it will be a relevant example.
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the OP said that tunneling and proxycamping "are a must" in order to win. I provided a sample of games that proves the operative word "must" to be incorrect
the point is that winning without those strategies is possible. if it were not, those results would not exist. the point is not to say "why can't you" because we all know why they can't - some killer players are simply not good enough to win without those strategies (and that's fine! you don't need to dedicate that much time to a goofy asymmetrical horror game. i simply choose to not care about winning, and other people can choose to care about winning but use easymode tactics like tunneling instead of grinding the hard skills). that doesn't mean, however, it's impossible to win without those strats
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If you bringing up a very expirienced player twit, I can simply bring up Tournaments. xD
In which I think you know how everyone play and what normal gameplay is.
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Anyway!
As a Trapper main, I want to say the recent buff has been a fun time working into chases and such. It did knock him up a bit imo.
But definitely not Blight n company level. Also Blight is mid tier.
@Grigerbest OP, I liked your wording and writing. But saying words like 'must' presents you as having a perspective that can't be changed. You're using an absolute, meaning this is fact, and that's that.
I think you're onto something, but no one is probably gonna be on board. Ego, humans, etc etc.
I'll say this: If gen speed takes any longer than now, as its already the most boring part of the game, I'll simply not care about winning and just play chase simulator. F Gens in general, as its a boring mechanic that I'm hoping changes eventually.
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Ok, so could you explain how tournaments existing proves that the pub game experiments Hens wrote about never happened?
because if the pub game experiment happened, that means it's possible to win without tunneling. therefore, to prove that you were right about tunneling being "a must" those games must have never happened. since you think the existence of comp games is proof that tunneling is necessary, those comp games must by necessity prove the Hens experiment did not happen. Otherwise, it's just an example of tunneling happening despite it not being strictly necessary
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@Grigerbest Yeah, see? As @ratcoffee is pointing out like clockwork, your word choice is the issue. Just change it to like "Tunneling is almost/basically/mostly a must."
Just saying :)
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Sometimes I wish these forum killers were matched against some decent and coordinated swfs, just to show them how their tunneling and camping are effective (enjoy your 3stages 1k)
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Yes, I know what they said, and I know what someone being needlessly pedantic and hyper-focusing on one word to discredit the rest of the argument looks like. It looks like you.
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Do you lose every single game if you don't choose to tunnel or proxy-camp every single game? Have you tried it?
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Have you yourself actually played against a decent survivors who's doing their objective as a M1 killer?=) How it went?
Tournaments actually shows you how this game works, if everyone in a match are very expirienced players.
I've no clue what Hens wrote, I'm not checking Twitter. I'm talking from my personal expirience, when I happened to reach this level of gameplay against very strong survivors. Without tunneling as an M1 killer you will end up with 0-1 hook before everyone gets out.
No matter how good you play, what perks you using, what map you are on. The game is falling blatantly on a survivors mistakes. If they don't do mistakes - you're screwed.
Besides 1 word "Must", I have other words, you or @ratcoffee paing too much attention to this 1 word.=)
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No, Im not. Im trying to show you "1 word" can derail your entire thought. This topic is now about that one word you think didn't matter. Trust me, it is So easy to hijack a thread when someone pays 'too much attention to 1 word."
Learn or don't. Good luck.
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I appreciate that. Thank you.=)
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<3
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Thank God I'm not playing against sweat lords all the time. xD
But when I do, and I happen to play as M1 killer, there is no way of even thinking about 2k If I don't tunnel.
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I disagree. I'm a ghostface main and I don't have to camp or tunnel at all. No I dont 4k every single match but I 4k often. I just think players need to realize it's not the end of the world if you don't get a 4k/escape every single match. That's not how games work.
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I agree, but I dont think OP is without agency in what he's saying.
I main trapper and usually get 3-4k, but I dont feel Im really really good, just not the standard. Maybe Im getting crap survivors lol
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It always seems to be the fault of everyone but the killers when it comes to why they can't secure any kills and have to resort to cheap tactics. I see killers get 3-4k all the time without tunneling or camping really (proxy doesn't count since it's not exactly camping still) and this can apply to most killers on the roster. You win some and you lose some. Everyone needs to start getting that
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Same. I go against many killers who ignore the person unhooked and chase the unhooker. They usually get 4K, and yanno, it's actually a solid match.
Sometimes they don't even bother with the two people at the hook and they are busy getting survivors off gens, they still win. Those killers are pretty rad.
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Of course killers can win without tunneling, if they're better than decent & coordinated swfs. Only better.
Because if killers have the same skill to decent & coordinated swfs, it should be 60% kill, where the balance should be. Of course killers with the same skill can 4K if they tunnel.
But 1 match can not tell anything, 1 good play or 1 mistake from either side can be 1 extra kill or 1 extra escape.
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At this point it's a very mixed bag between skill gaps and the ever present moaning of the MMR that matches people with the wrong games often
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I'd say they aren't "must" but "have to" if you care about winning.
Don't know why people try to appeal counterpart's "feelings" when some players just want to win.
"Because of ruining others experience." "DbD is casual game."
Isn't it obvious in game where survivors will either live or die?
Casual? Meta will never stop.
You can think some ways to win are not needed, unnecessary but that's just your opinion.
There's nothing wrong with playing for wins (strong killers, SWF, meta perks, tunnel/camp/slug, gen rush etc) and thinking such players as tryhard or dirty is just an unmature mindset.
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Like I sort of understand the "I have to tunnel" mindset, but the actual form of tunneling isnt just going in the middle of the game "Ok, I need to tunnel this Jake out if I want to win".
"Tunneling" is something you do when the opportunity arises, if you see the person that just saved some one go towards a strong loop while the person just unhooked goes towards a deadzone, theres an obvious pick here and I dont think anyone has an issue with that.
The way I see tunneling, is going after one Survivor and one Survivor only. If the team youre going against is smart this is only a detriment to the killer as youre giving 1 Survivor the resources meant for 4, and leaving 3 Survivors to do gens unoccupied.
The best form of slowdown a killer can get is occupying multiple Survivors at once and keeping them off gens as much as possible. Commiting to chases until some one is downed is actually not the way to go a good chunk of the time, ESPECIALLY in the early game.
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This isn't a fair take. The OP not only uses must in the title, he uses it in the post as well creating the impression that not tunneling isn't viable.
OP quotes:
In short: Tunneling in the current gameplay paste is a must-have tactic for some killer roaster to have a chance for at least 2-3k.So if developers announce something like "Anti-tunneling" mechanic, be prepared for a huge nerf to survivors main objective - Gens, or a huge buffs to killers.Either gens be much longer to repair, or killers will get some strong perks such as Deadlock or Corrupt, or maybe even Pain rez as basekit.OP's post is quite clear that tunneling is a must have tactic without substantial changes. You're avoiding the points @ratcoffee is making by pretending that he is arguing that instead of something being 100% true its only 99% true. He's pointing out not only is not a must, its not even close.
And if we're going to argue that the evidence from Hens should be thrown out because of the 1000s of hours, okay, but then let's also talk about the level of survivors killers actually face.
I find the whole thread a problem because no one has defined tunneling, which people talk about in different ways. I do think the concept is backwards though, because the better the survivors are, the easier a time they'll have dealing with tunneling (such as by waiting to do unhooks, body blocking, staying on gens, resetting in deadzones).
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I'm not avoiding anything. I never set out to respond to any additional 'points.' I wanted to point out how useless it was to essentially say, "You're wrong because players in the top 0.0001% can do it." With further context and explanation at the time, it may have come across as something other than pedantry and lazy point-scoring. However, with further explanation and taking things in the response to account, it definitely seemed like it was nothing but pedantry and lazy point-scoring. I don't think I need to explain myself any further, friend.
Post edited by Raconteurminator on1 -
I don't think this is accurate, personally.
We can start with the big flaw: As a general rule, you get much more value from spreading your pressure and occupying multiple survivors at once. Tunnelling may be easier than this, quite a bit more so, but it absolutely is not more effective.
Another big flaw is that tunnelling doesn't really work as a consistent, must-do-this-if-you-want-to-win strategy? It's something that can be very impactful, but if you try and tunnel someone out and those chases take longer than half a minute each, you're probably going to lose that match because you've left the other three survivors free to do generators for way too long.
Beyond that, I'd like to highlight this comment about the "gen speed issue", as you put it. I'm not sure what you're referring to, so I'll not be too declarative here, but the way you're phrasing this implies you aren't just referring to the outlier scenarios with four stacked toolboxes and teams that spawn spread out-- and that is the only time where there is an issue with gen speeds. If all four survivors brought medkits/flashlights and chase perks, as is the meta right now, there isn't a gen speed issue. Gens are actually pretty balanced right now, as they don't take so long survivors at a huge detriment but they also aren't so quick that the killer can't generate pressure to slow them down further.
I'd also like to call into question the idea that some killers on the roster require tunnelling to stand a chance. Even setting aside that tunnelling isn't what it's cracked up to be here, who exactly are you referring to? Trapper, perhaps, but is anyone beyond him really that bad without putting artificial limiters like no addons and no perks into the equation? Certainly some killers are weaker than they should be, but beyond Trapper specifically (which is debatable even then), nobody's struggling so much they need the magic bullet tunnelling is presented as to win. All killers (with only that one potential exception) are viable right now, and you don't need to tunnel someone out for that to be true.
As a final note, and I'll grant that it's a little off topic but it bugs me a little, why do people act like we don't already have anti-tunnel mechanics? That mechanic being a little weak doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Nearly 2024 and people still claiming this is a must. Killers in a nutshell.
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Watch a tournament game sometime. And i mean a real tournament game, not one that has made up rules and point systems that dictate who wins that aren't just the base "kill or escape" mechanic. And also not one that ties the survivors hands behind their back by limiting their perk and item usage.
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Isn't that like, all of them?
I don't really follow the tournament scene but I definitely got the impression most of the big-name (insofar as that applies at all) tournaments had those rulesets.
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This post smells of that high MMR area pov, and only that. Even being generous this applies to what, 5% of the playerbase? It's widely agreed most things are busted at the top, and certainly they do not consider these players first when making changes to the game. Whether this is the best approach is another thread entirely.
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It depends on a lot of things. The most important factor is definitely player skill on both sides.
An experienced killer could likely win against new survivors as Trickster without using his power or tunnelling or camping. The same is obviously not true against an experienced, coordinated SWF. Especially on a map like RPD where simply holding W is an easy way to waste the killer's time. And thus heavily punishes the killer for not camping.
But speaking from my own experience playing killer, I can usually get away with not camping or tunnelling in most games since random survivors tend to be really bad.
However, a more prudent argument I would like to make is that whether or not you can win a game as killer without camping or tunnelling is Irrelevant. Since even if you could win without doing either of them, you could definitely win faster and more efficiently if you did. Which is an undisputable fact about DbD that has always remained true.
So I think that is what people should be talking about instead: why has the most efficient way to play killer remain effectively unchanged for over 7 years when it often leads to boring games?
Post edited by SirCracken on5 -
I don't know what tiers are you playing at, but if you think tunneling and camping is a fun experience back to back every game every time you try to play survivor, then you know very little about this game and probably should not try to educate others.
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Or maybe the other way around: You haven't met a Trapper who has learned how to make good use of the Trapper changes =)
If you want to play Trapper for chase you can absolutely do so and get a decent killrate. Dear Evan just has an actual skillcurve now.
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And I think that is what people should be talking about instead: why has the most efficient way to play killer remain effectively unchanged for over 7 years when it often leads to boring games?Because its an elimination game. Reducing a team's strength by 25% is always going to be a huge gain. The question is how much work the killer has to do to get it.
Most ways to combat this would just lead to even bigger problems. Examples: you could be to give a boost to the 3 survivors when one is eliminated, however, that takes away the incentive for survivors to actually try and save their teammates, which should be something the game stresses. You could make the penalty only apply if the killer hooks the same player three times in a row, but then that just leads to SWFs using the tunneled played as a body blocker. You could do some sort of team hook state, but that would probably make it way too hard for killers to mount a comeback at the end of the game.
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The solutions you proposed are coming at the problem from the wrong angle.
You're thinking "How can we make tunnelling not as punishing for survivors" instead of "How can we reward the killer for not tunnelling"?
Just look at the perk Pain Resonance. It's easily one of the most powerful and most used killer perks in the game. And you can only get maximum value out of it if you don't tunnel.
I think that having a base-kit mechanic added that buffs the killer in some way if they get fresh hooks would be a good way to make tunnelling not as optimal. The buffs could be killer specific as to avoid making the meta killers too strong.
For example:
- Blight's next rush, (Not his subsequent rushes!), after getting a fresh hook is 10% faster and has 15% more turning control.
- Trapper's next 2 beartraps after getting a fresh hook are placed instantly and he receives a 10% Haste effect while someone is caught in his traps, and for 10 seconds after they are freed or picked up.
There's a lot more to making tunnelling no longer the most optimal way to play killer, but I believe this change would be a good start.
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I keep stats on all my games, including campers and tunnellers (purely out of curiosity). There's a tunneller approx 1 in every 12 games, and there (was) a camper approx 1 in every 15 games. Killers win the majority of my survivor games. I feel like plenty of killers do fine without those strats. So while I agree they're effective, and if you feel you need to use those strats then use them, I dont agree they are a "must."
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Besides, they played public matches, didn't they? The people at the supposed top play against whomever the game can find and win almost every game? Shocking. This is the equivalent of me playing perkless at the absolute bottom of MMR and claiming that killers are clearly overpowered because I win every game.
Knightlight and his group do basically the same and somehow we don't consider killers too weak when they get stomped by his SWF.
Post edited by Xernoton on6 -
Omg you should be in charge of Trapper buffs... Wowser!
That said, even as a trapper main, way to stronk lol. He'd be on par or outshine Blight n company. Yeah, I'd wager that!
On topic, rewards do seem to work on most players, so the idea of rewarding fresh hooks seems like a good idea. Lots of work going over each killer but, that's why the devs get paid, eh? (Some would argue :P )
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Recently I dont see much tunnelers/campers, but its not that rare as you. I would say 1 every 6-7 matches. Many of them even 8 hooks before first kill.
The most funny part is those fair play killer mostly 4K or hatch escape. But some tunnelers even struggle for a hook or a kill.
MMR doing its job for me. Those tunnelers are definitely not skilled enough but relied so hard on tunneling/slowdown to reach to MMR they should never be. But fair play killers definitely could easily win against much better team, but they may even prefer 10 hooks/2 kill to drop MMR and play against easier team for less stressful games.
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I have idea for killer buff give killer friend so it's 2vs4. 1vs4 is always going to be unfair unless the less numbered side is completely OP which is not fun for survivors then...
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So ... two Blights? Two Nurses? A Blight and a Nurse? A Nurse and a Doctor (for detection)?
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I can imagine myself reading a game review on DBD saying:
"There is one killer and 4 survivors must escape him, however one survivor will be killed off prematurely in order to make the game "fair" for the killer."
Sounds like a chore as the killer and a waste of time as a survivor.
I don't think I'd buy that game .
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