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So, when are the developers finally going to do something about stacking premades?
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So, just to be clear: This is a completely different thing to what you said first and what I was responding to. I'll happily respond, but this is a different conversation to the one we started. I'm assuming that just means you don't have anything to disagree with in my post, though.
So, to your question: we get there... either never, or immediately, depending on your point of view. If you think survivors playing well is inherently miserable, you're never gonna see that meaningfully addressed because it's just how things go. However, if you mean being able to leverage aggressive use of mildly unbalanced things (kinda like old locker flashlight saves, for example, or more extremely unbalanced things like old hatch), that's part of what I was talking about before.
As you make "survivor" a coherent role you can balance in one go, part of that balancing will be tuning down the things that SWF players can use to make the game miserable for killers. It's not only part of that effort, it requires that effort for it to be fairly possible.
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What does proof look like? I had a youtube channel where I posted VODs from killer scrims and tourney games that I won, and half the comments were "those survivors are terrible. I play against better survivors". Someone could post a VOD of them playing against great survivors, and if they win, they will inevitably get comments about how their MMR can't possibly be "high". It's not worth the effort to even cobble together proof, because hidden MMR is the ultimate cop-out in these discussions. People aren't looking for proof that meta SWFs can be beaten. They're looking for validation that they themselves are every bit as good as they believe they are, and the game's balance is at fault.
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Well to be fair, nothing has happened in that regard between those years. So why should the complaints suddenly stop?
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Nurse is not hard to play.
You don't need to "master" her to destroy in public matches.
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That's the problem BHVR created by creating swf.
It's super busted if used correctly, but it can't be nerfed without hurting the overall enjoyment of the game.
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According behaviour it was made with the idea of playing with friends.
But yet im waiting SWF patch.
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As a killer main I can sympathise with you. I've often been destroyed by swfs and it usually goes one of 2 ways. either they are chill in end game and we have a good interaction or they are all just kids and try and bully in end game.
However would I want SWFs nerfed that much or even removed...hell no. Its what makes the game fun for me as a killer. Knowing someone is in a swf (which is usually fairly obvious for the sweaty ones in pregame lobby) makes me wanna kick there ass even more to proove i can.
Also once you realize someone is in a SWF then use that to your advantage. For example SWFs will often protect each other more than solo que will. Awesome use that for free hits, "Tunnel" someone off the hook and they will swarm to take hits. Hit one then swap target its just free. Or run perks such as Mad Grit so when they take what feels like 5000 hits with their stacked endurance perks it makes no difference and you sweep.
Anyone complaining about SWFs in this game from a killer point of view kinda needs to just get over themself and take precautions around it.
I myself do the following. 3 - 4 flashlights...lightborn, 2 or 3 p100's...tunnel, clear clan names....just run around and chase 1 person all game to get it over with, 4 of the same cosmetics....Excuse to tunnel because i can't tell them apart XD
I think the only players who should be able to complain about SWF's are the solo que survivors who end up with a team of 3 because 9/10 times they are just abandoned as the swf only look after the SWF not the solo que
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Well, it is obvious that strong SWFs (and these SWFs are real) can destroy almost all the killers, but problem is that there is no way to balance these SWFs properly. I have thought of limiting items so survivors can hold no more than 2 items, but not sure whether it would be enough....
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They've made it very clear they wish all players in either role to run whatever load outs they want to. So I don't ever see them limiting perks, items, add-ons etc. or any crazy tourney limitations at all. So that's out imo.
Straight up removing SWF is also not an option, as it would definitely wreak queue times and likely kill off this game. So nope here too.
They seem to be targeting MMR, and making changes to ensure their system has its best chance to make fair-ish trials. With the recent tests they're looking at the lobbies themselves and when effects of lobby shopping.
Perhaps removing pre-game prestiges needs to happen? Perhaps what is seen and clickable in the lobbies needs to change? The basic idea I believe is to ensure the relative skill levels of the survs (solos or not) get matched with a killer who can handle them. Going after the dodging makes sense to help with that.
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That is with the assumption that the discrepancy in fair matchmaking is solely due to lobby dodging.
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What I intended to say first, and I still think is the most important point of this conversation, is that survivors keep getting quality of life updates like the survivor HUD, and killers still don’t have an FoV slider, even though it’s the one and only announced quality of life update for them.
And this happens because “solo q is miserable” gets sympathy, but “playing against SWFs is miserable” just gets responses like “you can’t punish people for playing with friends”
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That's an extremely limited view, though. The balance of solo queue versus SWF is important for everyone, it's not "survivors get [x]". If that balance is, y'know, balanced better, things which affect killers can be more potent and effective because they won't be fighting against two separate groups who get affected differently.
Also, those two statements should get the reactions you're talking about. If you say "playing against SWFs is miserable", it hints not only that you've got some confirmation bias regarding specific annoying games, but that you actually want to do something about it. Well, doing something about it usually means nerfing SWF, and that's why the response you lay out is an appropriate one.
Also, killers do get quality of life updates. You're just narrowing the options down to just QoL that affects the shared killer basekit, rather than QoL that affects both sides or that affects a specific killer.
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Wanting quality of life buffs that can apply to all killers isn’t “a narrow view”. There are so many purposely frustrating killer mechanics, like purposely bad FoV, purposely loud chase music, a forced short M1 attack mechanic that can steal hits from the killer, purposely overturned sound occlusion, purposely unreliable footsteps, maps that are purposely red to hide scratch marks and pools of blood, etc.
BHVR could be addressing those, and then make generic number adjustments to fix the kill rate if it gets raised too high.
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No, it isn't. Acting like talking about the difference between SWF and solo queue is only caring about survivors' experience is a narrow view, because it is actually a very important element for balancing the entire game, including both roles.
Yes, they could be doing those things. They could be doing a thousand things that could help the game. All you can fairly say about the current situation is that they just aren't doing those things right now, not that they're neglecting killer players or whatever.
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I agree we're guessing about that. No doubt it plays a part though. We'll see when they put out their test info at some point.
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Balancing the kill rates between solo q and SWF is important for both sides of the game. Giving survivors quality of life improvements is not important for both sides of the game. There is a difference.
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The two things are the same. The only ways to affect the balance of solo queue versus SWF are going to be things that improve their experience, which is a win/win for everyone.
Even if they weren't the same, though, who cares? Everyone gets quality of life improvements, there's no reason solo queue players should be left out in the cold there.
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she doesnt need to be nerfed further. Blight is stronger than her now and she is much slower at map traversal now due to the removal of recharge add ons
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Survivors getting quality of life improvements aren’t a win/win for everyone. It’s just a win/win for survivors. It means that survivors get stuff that affects the vast majority of them, and killers get left in the cold yet again.
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Two things.
1: We are specifically talking about shrinking the gap between solo queue and SWF. That is, overall, a win/win for everyone, as long as you look at the game as a whole.
2: Killers are not left out in the cold. Killer players get QoL improvements too, just not the specific type that you're looking for as often as survivors.
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The solution is showing in end game who is in party with who. So killers who regularly get stomped will finally see that they don't get stomped only by 4 man sweat squads but also by 4 solo survivors, but then they will kinda find something else to blame for their loss as usual
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Even without pre made some killers think everyone a swf when they're not on com. You just ain't good.
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You probably never face those people often enough to make this an issue.
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It would certainly be a solution. But I dont think it would be a good solution. If they dont face a SWF, they would look for another reason why they lost. Perks, Items, the Map...
And IF they face an SWF, it would probably lead to toxicity and they blame the SWF for playing together. Furthermore, I am pretty sure the forum would be full of Screenshots of Killers who lost to 4-mans to show how strong they are (obviously the other 9 out of 10 games where they either win or dont face a 4-man would not appear here).
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Swf especially with comms is an advantage. Weather or not they are just friends chilling or sweat squads. Its still an advantage.
The killers have no compensation for the communication and coordination of a swf. But the swf should not be punished for playing with friends.
The killer players want to opt out of swf. The survivors say, well swf would never get a match. Why do you think that is? There is a disparity there.
I do not know what BHVR could do to even it out. I doubt they will do anything as the survivors are the bread and butter of DBD. They are the majority. In any business you cater to your majority.
Just makes sense.
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not nerv swf, buff solo q. Give them all swf things and then balance killer and surv. This is the only way.
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There is nothing that could be done to "even it out". People who complain about swf blame every loss on anything but their own gameplay.
Comms are not the advantage people think it is. Communication is a skill. Being able to communicate effectively is a skill. If you cannot convey succinct, precise information, your communication isn't advantageous.
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So, let's say your playing pallet Freddy. A group of solos will not know that someone fell for a fake pallet. A swf says, hey guys it's fake pallet Freddy. Throw them early. Now the whole team knows and it stops the killers surprise factor.
A killer runs knockout. Solos would have no idea where the downd person is. Swf, hey guys im down at the killer shack.
See. That's the advantage I am talking about. Regardless of skill of either side. It's an advantage that the killer gets nothing in compensation for. They just have to deal with it.
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Ignore them.
Its a huge advantage.
I play with a person sitting next to me in a SWF. Its a whole different world from solo.
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Knockout's strength is that it's a slugging perk. Of course it's an advantage that swfs can communicate their location, but is it not also an advantage for the killer that knockout hides the downed survivor's aura?
As for Pallet Freddy, long-time players can tell which pallets are real and which pallets are extras. Pallet Freddy's advantage isn't in the early game. Pallet Freddy's advantage grows as the game progresses and there are fewer pallets, so it becomes harder to remember which ones you have thrown and which ones you haven't. Early-game, you know which pallets are where.
You're assuming that every swf is a 4-man, when 4-man's are actually few and far between. Trios are more common than 4-man's, but less common than duos, and duos account for the majority of swfs.
Experience trumps communication unless it's a 4-man squad running all meta perks and using the clock callout system to keep tabs on the killer at all times.
Killer doesn't get anything to compensate for swf because it's a balancing nightmare. If you buff killer to be able to handle 4-mans, then the solo and duo experience becomes significantly worse. If you nerf swfs, then you're punishing people for playing with their friends. If you let killer know who's in a swf before the match starts, 90% of killers will lobby dodge.
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It's a huge advantage over solo, sure. But is it as hugely advantageous over killer as EvilBarney seems to believe? No. Just as not all solo's are baby survivors, not all swfs are good at communicating. The assumption is that all swfs are 4-mans, but the reality is that the majority are duo's.
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Never.
The problem you see, is that BHVR has realized that they don't need to ACTUALLY balance their game as long as they can create a matchmaking that gives them an "ideal" killrate statistically speaking.
SoloQ's 90%+ killrate evens out the SWF 90% escape rate and there is enough wiggle room with top 1% killers are lower MMR brackets that they get a 40% escape rate for survivor in the grand scheme of things. They don't give a fog that for the individual it might be because they win/lose 9 out of 10 matches.
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maybe because its an unadressed problem
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There's a reason why 0K or 4K are the highest rates on nightlight for pretty much every Killer. It should be 2k-3k.
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I feel like 99% of the killer mains here just want a single player game so they can embrace a power trip fantasy with constant 4 kills.
I've never seen a community with such a fragile ego and copium techniques.
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it is insanely advantageous in every single match at all skill levels. and will always be. just stop pretending it isn't, there is no point.
doesn't matter if it's a 4-man, duo... the ones with comms, have a huge advantage.
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if they removed swf just to appease a small amount of players who get easily upset over a video game.. dbd would die. Most swfs arent using clock callsouts or using comp strats, theyre just having fun with a group of friends after a long day. Some are toxic ayrun wannabes but most have played for years and are skillful at the game. I mean I go against solo queue survivors that are pretty good at the game. I think we should channel this anger towards map designs and perk imbalances that swfs can capitalize on, not swfs themselves.
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Lol killers be winning almost every game and still be crying they lose 1 match in 20. Here's the simplicity of it, 4 brains working together and being tactical is always going to be superior to 1. End of discussion. Get over your ego. Take your L and love the experience. Then go bully some rando squad before they finish 2 gens.
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Every stat says otherwise
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Unaddressed problem? It’s been spoken on by devs multiple times. It’s not a problem, and SWF is not going anywhere.
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The way to solve the SWF communication problem is by first buffing Solo Queue Survivor and ONLY Solos so it nullifies the SWF comm advantage and then buffing killers to match that strength after.
(The game already knows and tracks when players are in a SWF and when they are Solo when joining a lobby.)
So you either give basekit perk info ONLY to players joining lobbies alone, add a emote/chat wheel (with enough choices to communicate effectively), or just add a global voice chat for Survivors with a mute option for the players that don't want to use it. Just like every other multiplayer game that needs teamwork to be successful has used.
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The first would be effectively punishing players for playing with friends and if there's a duo and 2 solos, the solos have added an advantage for the duo.
The second again makes it seem that play with friends is being punished if the emotes are only accessable to solos. Admittedly it might work out the best though if for all.
The 3rd would be a nightmare to have. Either it's on and you're listening to grownup children yell for petty reasons or you mute them and have them become the worst teammates you can have out of spite for muting the chat.
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No, a punishment for playing with Friends would be nerfing or removing SWF. They already have a comms/information advantage. Adding comms for Solos doesn't hurt friend groups at all.
The emote/chat wheel is for all players not just solos..
Almost every multiplayer game has a voice chat with mute options and it works just fine. (This game will never be worse than old Call of Duty lobbies.) You mute and/or report troublemakers. If they get mad and throw the game because of that they are immature and the outcome of the trial would be exactly the same as it is right now..
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How does adding base perks only for solos not punishing playing with friends? That's making something exclusive to one type of play.
We're going to hard disagree on matches would be the same. This game may not be as bad as old CoD lobbies, but it's unnervingly close. There WILL be a massive uprising of tossing for petty reasons. This may be a doomsday crazy talking but it has a lot of evidence to make it seem REALLY plausible.
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they can't just disable playing with friends, and they definitely shouldn't nerf survivor perks/items because swfs can abuse them (except very abusable and almost swf-exclusive stuff like boil over). i'd say some perks should be limited for use only by 1 person in a swf but the only contender to be such a perk would be ftp buckle up combo which already needs a nerf so.
but undoubtedly swfs are more challenging so it would be nice if they gave killers a bp bonus or something for facing a swf.
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The devs (or anyone in this thread who just... can't... think of any ways to improve Solo Q) should watch a SWF play on youtube or whatever, and take a note of every time they share info that a Solo player wouldn't have.
Once all of those are in the HUD, we can have this discussion again.
If you can't think of a way to communicate those things in a HUD, please quit your job designing videogames.
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Because using the logic you're using, Solo players are already being "punished" for simply not playing with other people. A SWF group already has the advantage by being able to communicate with each other.
Giving Solo players the same information that a SWF group already has does nothing to the group but help coordination that is lacking between the two right now.
I do agree with you that voice comms for all could be used for harassment at first. But by reporting and simply muting/blocking, or actually being able to speak to each other and hear the emotions of other people, would help overall.
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I like this take. I just want people to admit that SWF with Comms IS an advantage. Does not matter the context.
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While somewhat true, there's an important detail that's being left out. The biggest advantage is coordination which almost always comes from a source OUTSIDE of dbd itself.
Currently the only real info that we can think of (in trial) is where the killer, where survivors are, how close the door to being opened is, and what's been used (pallets and boxes). Everything else is effectively covered by the hud (and the door is a good guess away). Adding something like base kit bond would give more info than a single call out, NOT humoring base Object, base kit windows would make normal windows useless. Idk if we're missing something but it kinda goes like that for our eyes.
As the voice chat, should we go down that rabbit hole, bhvr would be swarmed with reports for years. MAYBE after that time it could help, we won't argue that, but that's after causing a mess that's avoided simply by not being added. Overall we're going to disagree on adding this, but that's just our opinion on it.
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I agree the HUD is useful but just knowing where the killer is and knowing where other survivors are from a simple voice call out is the most important advantage a SWF has.
Why should only SWF groups have access to that important information for free? Just because they are friends or found each other on a SWF discord group? Solo Survivors are playing the game the way it was meant to be played. They shouldn't be punished for that, they should be rewarded and given an incentive to play Solo because it is miserable and has been for a long time.
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