The SFTBL Epidemic (Why STBFL Needs A Nerf)
Ever since the Alien chapter (at least what I've seen) There's been a surge of STBFL users. Nothing wrong with a lot of killers using a decently strong perk. HOWEVER, it's not just certain types of killers but they're playstyles as well that makes the perk VERY annoying to go up against. M2 Killers like Demo, Slinger, Wesker, etc etc. These killers usually use STBFL since they can get almost UNLIMITED value off the perk due to them having an M2 attack that doesn't rid stacks since M2s doesn't remove a stack if you hit the obsession's with it. So what problems does this cause?
-Survivors will have a harder time countering a perk as only the obsessions will have the ability to do so. But since killers can M2 attack, the perk is almost uncounterable. All perks should have either a counter or downside and if those can be avoided EASILY I mid you, easily, then the perk is not healthy.
-Killer performance plummeting to the ground. No need to learn useful Demo shreds at loops. No need to find places to trickshot with slinger. No need to go for unique tech bounds with Wesker when all you do is M1 as its easier, less punishing and you get a benefit to your M1 cooldown reduction. Basically you get rewarded for playing safe and easy. No need to even learn how to mindgame loops since you can Zone them with your M2, pushing them from a loop making it easier for you to hit them. This makes killers worse in terms of overall performance as they never learn how to micro and macro game, use their abilities to their fullest potential and lose more often because they spent time micromanaging they're playstyle to a single perk. This brings people to say "X killer needs a buff" when really most are not playing them optimally due to a single perk. This creates boring games which...cmon.
On top of that one midchapter from a year or 2 ago that shortened the cooldown of a killers basekit M1 attack cooldown (basically basekit 2 stacks of STBFL) and a shortened duration of the Survivors speedboost after an attack, it's safe to say that this perk, though not overpowered, can be very problematic to both survivors and killers in the long run.
-How would I nerf STBFL?
First I'd start out with removing 2 stacks, bringing it back to it's original stats before the midchapter that reduced killers m1 cooldown. Second, I'll make it to when the obsession loses a health state by ANY means, they'll lose a stack. Meaning M2s can cause them to lose a stack. No more using M2s to avoid stacks. Third, I'd also make it to wear if the obsessions dies, a random survivor becomes the new obsessions. This will stop the killer from tunneling the obsession out the game in order to gain stacks without having to worry about the obsession taking hits to remove stacks or just worry about losing stacks while in a chase with them in general.
I would also like to BUFF STBFL.
-M2 attacks can ALSO help you gain a stack. Is this controversial? Yeah. But it'll be unfair for killers to lose stacks M2ing and not gain them from M2ing. We want to encourage M2 killers to use their power more in order to make more better, smarter and more skillful killers without a perk hindering them. STBFL still ONLY reduces M1 cooldowns though, not M2s.
All of these changes will still make STBFL viable to all killers, but discourages M2 killers from utilizing the perk while avoiding all the downsides that come with it. These changes will also force killers to use their M2 more as they can't use it JUST on the obsessions to avoid stacks, but they can also use it to gain stacks as well. This change will keep the perk strong but healthy.
Let me know your thoughts below please! Thank you for your time!
Comments
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STBFL is fine. no nerfs needed.
45 -
I think it should go back to how it was pre meta-shakeup.
So, 6 Stacks at the max. Not a huge nerf, because it doesn't need a huge nerf, but something to keep it in line a bit.
14 -
nah stbfl is fine and no changes are needed. resources are better spent elsewhere.
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No its not. Did you not read my post? Its very boring and uncounterable to go up against when in terms of an M2 Killer. It also encourages them to not use their power making their performance bad. Killers stop learning how to win chases/play optimally because of this perk, And when killers start to become terrible, BVHR will either buff them again or nerf loops/maps to compensate when really it's the lack of skill because killers rely on a single perk. I'm not asking it to be nerfed because it's OP. It's really not. I'm asking for it to be nerfed because its harmful in the long run. We're already seeing it with Demogorgons. They rarely shred anymore and it's not fun plus they lose more games micro-managing a perk. It's very unhealthy. But tell me why you think its fine please. Their must be a reason other than "It's not strong."
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It's a number change.
I think it's overtuned, but not OP.
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It would need to be recalculated though for the same effect... because 30% reduction of 2.7 seconds is not the same as 40 % off of 3 seconds... With 40% off of 3.0 seconds we end up on 1.8 seconds cooldown, whereas with 30% off of 2.7 seconds we have 1.89 seconds. So it is not exactly that...
0 -
Functionally, I doubt anyone would notice.
If they really wanted to though, I suppose they could make it back to 1.8 instead of 1.89
1 -
STBFL is not an actual problem. BHVR buffed the M1 attack CD, STBFL doesn't need to be nerfed to offset a buff that was intended to give killers more power in M1 chases.
17 -
I did read your post. The perk is fine no changes are needed.
18 -
Why would you complain about STBFL on Wesker? That is better for the survivors than for the Wesker. Because STBFL is not a good perk on him. His chase potential is high enough to play around most loops with his M2. For the others, he doesn't need STBFL either. It's pretty much a waste of a perk slot on him because his M2 is way better than going for M1s. And to actually get value out of STBFL, he would need to go for quite a few M1s.
But honestly, go ahead, nerf STBFL and see what happens. A small nerf to its pre 6.1.0 strength, wouldn't change anything (the difference is so minimal, you'd achieve a placebo effect at best). Anything more than that, will amplify the age old M1 killer problem. They are weak in chase because they have a hard time getting the first hit and then have to catch up again (easily 15 seconds worth of time) before they can play for the second hit. Weaker killers = less positive results = less appeal to play these killers. Basically, you'd actively discourage people from playing M1 killers, which at best leads to them playing more of the same killers you already see more than enough. Like Wesker and Blight.
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Most of those killers should not use Stbfl anyway, because the m2 is more usefull than the reduced cooldown on basic attacks, esepcially on Demogorgon or Wesker. Slinger being kind of the exception, since all your hits are basic attacks and the only way not to loose stacks is by making the chain break. So your point considering him and trickshots and what not does not really apply.
Counterin the perk is fairly easy, most of the time, if they cannot hit you with basic attacks they don't get value, and usually basic m1 killers can be looped fairly easily so you are required to use your power to get hits if you want to get them quicker. By looping good alone and forcing the other side to use their power instead of basic attacks or not getting a hit at all you are already reducing their perk value, sure you cannot really take against those killers, but even then you don't increase their stacks by taking hits either, so it is still a good thing to do from time to time.
How people play is for them to decide and I don't think this is an argument for or against the perk with its current strenght, sure you should basically not use it on Wesker or Nemesis, because your m1 is just much better but still, that's for everyone to decide on their own. Saying a killer needs a buff when you're not using his power but only m1 isn't a point either so... yeah that ones not really counting my man.
Yeah did happen with 8 stacks you are currently at a cooldown of 1.62 seconds compared to the 1.8 seconds from before the reduction of attack cooldown, however this is not really 10 stacks of stbfl, more like 9.2 or something... So the increase is not as drastic as people make it seem when saying you have basically 10 stacks now. (10 stacks originally would be 1.5 seconds)
I don't like those changes, basically the perk already gets only run on killers that can avoid loosing stacks, because otherwise it can be really tough and you constantly loose stacks if the people know what they are doing, so nah I don't think the perk would be worthwhile... Same for the 6 stacks thing, because as I showed you before it is not accurate.
The point of gaining stacks from your m2 ability seems neat at first glance but doesn't really do much, because the killers that play properly already mostly use their power and not m1 so the perk is still not really good on them, so this basically only makes it so people keep running it despite it being a bad idea. You cannot say that using this perk makes it so they don't learn the killer spower and then basically encourage them with this change to still run it on those killers xD That does not make any sense...
The perk would be much weaker than it is currently, while it is already only used on a few killers, I don't see it getting used more frequently with those changes, especially more experienced players will probably just drop the perk for some regression. Most Demogorgone players for example have dropped this perk ages ago out of their meta, some even going as far as to say it is terrible on demo, I don't think they would take it back... You see the powers of m2 killers are already superior to m1 attacks, and when you don't or barely use m1 attacks, why would you run a perk that makes m1 better, you're not using that one anyway. Using your power gives you quicker hits + bonuses like infection on nemesis or wesker, or quicker cooldown, for example on demogorgon with addon. It is a nice try, but I don't see a problem with the perk, nor do I think this change would keep it good or make people use it more.
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Yes,lets nerf m1 killers.
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It could use 2 changes imo
Remove 1 stack, just 1 not 2, for people who can do math 30% of 2.7 isn't the same as 40% of 3. Plus at 6 stacks It would be a lot more annoying if you ever go for the obsession 6 stacks to 2 wouldn't feel great or have endurance and completely clean you out of stacks would just incentivize never going for them unless extremely convenient. Current max stacks 1.62s cooldown, max stacks with 2 tokens removed 1.89s cooldown (worse that before the update). Max stacks with 1 stack removed 1.76s (closest to before the update (1.8s).
However I think a more important change the perk could get is just doesn't work within 8m of a hooked survivor and for 5 seconds after. Range and numbers aren't set in stone but thats one of the main pain points of the perk is that the killer can very easily down the unhooker and hit the unhooked survivors bt without even moving if they were at the hook.
slight nerf (very slight) and an adjustment to how it interacts around hooks and its good to go
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The only killers who can do that reliably are Demo and arguably Pig and Nemesis. None of which need nerfs.
And a Demo using STBFL and going for M1s is weaker than a Demo who uses actually uses their Shred. They are pretty much giving up free hits just so they can build their stacks. Demo is honestly better off without STBFL. There is a lot of new Demo players due to the Stranger Things re-release so you would be seeing and influx in STBFL because of that. Once the hype dies down and people go back to their mains you’ll see less STBFL Demo’s.
Nerfing this perk would just make the weaker killers weaker and make more people play Blight and Wesker. Fix the gap between the low and high tier killers first and then see if STBFL needs changes.
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Yeah, STBFL was in the shrine a while back. So that probably contributed to the increased usage. Plus content creators have been talking about how good it is, so that likely contributes to increased usage also.
1 -
If we HAVE to nerf this perk, they can it similar to Game Afoot where the Obession changes into the person you just hit. It'll make Killers more willing to go to other people without completely gutting this perk.
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Bad idea. That would force the killer to play hit and run to build up stacks. So not only would it not work on a good chunk of killers, that would use STBFL but it would also incentivise a play style that survivors tend to hate. Changing the obsession to whoever was unhooked last would be a better idea. It would still keep its purpose but it would also disincentivise tunneling. Which is always good in my book.
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idk it's essentially an m1 killer perk so i'm not a fan of m1 killer nerfs. sure m2 killers can use it too but they don't have value if they m2 then, basically becoming an m1 killer (except slinger). the only nerf that would make sense would be disabling it near hooks but that's pretty much it. (i like the idea of switching obsession to the most recently unhooked survivor too)
if a wesker or demo is using stbfl and specifically going for m1s they are losing potential of the killer. for example i use stbfl on demo but i still find myself using shred even in open areas to save time.
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You guys want to nerf the only perk that gives me desire to play bad killers and then ask why only Nurse, Blight and Wesker in your matches? This is how it works?
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Just because sometimes the obsession doesn't realize that they are the key to the perk's counterplay doesn't warrant nerfing the perk.
The obsession needs to confirm that the killer has the perk, and make themselves an "easy" target and/or take protection hits for others.
The obsession not playing against it correctly isn't the perk's fault.
4 -
Is Hit-an-Run really a problematic play style now? I thought Survivors hating tunneling and not they don't want that anymore?
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Stbfl taps on team play. Kinda like how the Obsession should be doing the healing and unhooking when dying light is in play.
Maybe giving the Obsession a notification that the Killer has stbfl like dying light and Dissolution would encourage counterplay rather than just taking the lazy way out and nerf the numbers?
3 -
I do fine without the perk.
3 -
your problem with the perk is that killer that use the perk tunnel? Is that not a problem with the game having no incentives spreading hooks rather then the perk? this seems like faulty logic to nerf the perk. health-states are too strong for most m1 killers. this perk creates semblances of balance for m1 killers. weakening the perk leaves m1 killer with no mobility gap-close to lose to hold-w forward survivor that pre-drop pallets and heal too effectively.
2 -
The sooner you realize that survivors hate it when killers do anything, and that no matter what you do they will be mad at you the better off you'll be.
12 -
Is not that great with Wesker tbh, most of the time you want to injure with his power to keep the survivors infected and pushing them into bad positions.
1 -
Leave STBFL alone. It's fine as is.
7 -
Do you love survivors when they:
- Hold W
- Predrop
- Loops around a rock a few times
- Hit a survivor then they get Deep wound and sprint away
- Sit on a Gen
- Doing a Gen at a death zone, not willing to give a free hit but sprint away
- Vault a window and sprint away
- Body block with Endurance
- Pick up a survivor with MFT and BU
- Stand in front of you with something when picking up a survivor
- Make a totem blue.
- Make a quick rotation
- Whole team attempt to rescue the hooked teammate for 4 escapes
Right, killers dont like survivors doing anything either.
STBFL is used to make the chased survivor to make shorter distance, especially for tunneling and prevent teammates to body block. I dont use STBFL to save 1sec to find another survivor across the map. But 4m of the chased survivor.
3 -
real people use save the best for last on doctor
His faster tap tap on his bat is based
4 -
Okay, slight problem. Slinger isn't exactly an M2 killer. He still M1s to hit you no matter what. I find stbfl to be good for slinger because it let's me shoot you, hit, then reload faster. That's not a skill thing. That's gonna let me shoot more, learn more spots to shoot in. Now, it being stuck at 6 stacks, I could get by, however I think seeing a nemisis whip you like a machine gun might be a problem. Same with pinhead, just never ending chains.
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And I do fine without exhaustion perks and WoO, doesn’t mean they should get nerfed.
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The perk isn't the problem.
It's the clueless obsession refusing to get more involved.
A blendette can easily throw the whole game like such.
4 -
Just like MFT supposedly broke the rules of dbd, stbfl does the same thing but even worse. They shouldn't mess with core mechanics like hit cooldowns, especially when it can be abused so easily (a few stacks would deny even 2 people trying to unhook).
This perk is utterly unhealthy for the game and should be nerfed.
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Problematic? No. Not even remotely. Unfun to play against? No doubt.
But worse than that, how do you play hit and run on Doctor, Trapper, Freddy, Pig, Clown etc? Simple answer: You don't. Because this is working against their power. So you would make STBFL pretty much unusable on them.
5 -
I do think the perk could use a few changes. It doesn't need a huge nerf but it does need a few adjustments.
First - no more conserving stacks on M2. This is the biggest issue with it imo. It removes the ability for the obsession to try to reduce its strength by taking hits since any M2 killer can just use their special attack instead. M1 killers aren't affected by this nerf, but it prevents killers like Demo from just saving stacks for free.
Second - cooldown reduction goes to 4% per token instead of 5%, for a maximum of 32% at 8 stacks. This brings the reduced cooldowns at the higher token levels closer to what they were prior to 6.1.0. The higher token-level cooldown times were fine prior to 6.1.0 and didn't need the indirect buff they got from that update (even though the base cooldown reduction was 100% a good change). The cooldowns with this change will still be faster than they were with 5% prior to 6.1.0 all the way up to 7 tokens, and only slightly worse at 8 (and even at 8, survivors still get less of a speedboost than they used to so it's not really worse). (I like this more than just reducing the number of tokens to 6, so it still requires the same amount of effort to reach maximum power.)
Lastly - if you are within 16 meters of a hooked survivor, and for 5 seconds afterwards, you don't get the cooldown reduction if you hit someone. STBFL should be a strong chase perk. It should not be a strong camping perk, especially in endgame. It's currently too effective for camping as well as quickly downing a rescuer and then immediately slugging them and going straight after the unhooked survivor again.
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Since killers can't camp anymore as effectively, they want to tunnel more efficiently. And stbfl provides them with it.
1 -
I think it’s so ironic some of the people in here calling for a STBFL nerf are the same people on here constantly complaining about always facing nurse, blight, wesker.
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'Save the best for last' is in 4 out of 20 of the top most seen killer builds.
'Made for this' is in 15 out of 20 of the top most seen survivor builds.
There is no STBFL "epidemic."
On the other hand, there definitely is a MFT epidemic, which is why it's slated for a nerf.
This is a baseless 'weaken the killer' campaign thread.
8 -
It should be disabled in end-game. Makes facecamping pretty much uncounterable even if the obsession takes two hits.
Also one day I hope people realize M1 killers can be unfun to play against and usually play in worse ways than the A tiers.
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It does not need to be turned off in end game. Survivors just need to learn when to cut their losses and leave. There's no need for the other survivors in end game to feed a killer more kills if a save isn't possible. It wouldn't stop other strong campers in the end game either, because the strongest campers are ones with a M2 power like Huntress or Leatherface.
4 -
STBFL just needs to lose stacks with M2 attacks, not both nerfs. The perk is just strong, and for me, ok to use with M1 killers, the problem is when its used with M2 killers. And since the perk is named Save the Best for Last, if you hit your obsession with a M2 attack you are not saving the best for last, so you should lose stacks too.
1 -
STBFL just needs the M2 hits nerf. The perk is undeniably strong, and for me, ok to use with M1 killers, but the problem is when its used with M2 killers. The perk is named “Save the Best for Last” and if you hit your obsession with a M2 attack you are not “saving the best for last” so you should lose stacks too.
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Yep i agree this forum is very short sighted, there is one problem with STBFL it enables hard tunneling, just find one of your 3 non obsession target then eat all endurance until they're dead, you're rewarded with early 3v1 and 8 stacks
"obsession should bodyblock" doesn't work if you're not in swf, of course you need to play the game first to realize this, devs wouldn't know
1 -
losing stacks to obsession mechanic is outdated. the perk should be buffed, not nerfed. Instead of losing stacks, it should not give any stacks for obsession hits. the perk tier could scale number of max stacks to 6/7/8.
I still think that survivor gain too much distance for hold-w with health-states. it's kinda silly that you waste 20 second of time for doing one of least skillful actions on survivor. m1 killer should not need to ideally be forced to run a perk to balance second-chancing. So at least 20% of stbfl should be base-kit before any nerfs to the perk happen.
for camping and tunneling off hook, they can simply invent survivor perks to specifically counter stbfl such as increased unhooking speed or a survivor perk that increases killer attack recovery time. I doubt survivor will use it but at least option should be there. I consider this a learn to play issue with bodyblocking however sometimes perks can fix learn to play issues when a player is poor at specific skill in the game.
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No, just...no.
Just nerfing it's max potential is not a good idea, but making M2 gain stacks is even worse since it removes the best trait of this perk.
STBFL is a powerful perk, but it is one of the handful of powerful perks that the monsters (Nurse & Blight) and (most) ranged Killers can barely use and that more mid/M1 Killers (Demo, Nemi, Wraith, Trapper) use to be able to compete.
(Side-note: Wesker is a bad example of ideal STBFL user, a Wesker that goes out of his way to M1 is a pretty bad Wesker).
It takes time to build up (the equivalent of 4 hooks, so 1 kill & 1 hook if playing scummy) and loses tokens quickly if obsession gets in the way.
Nerfing the perk would merely make weaker Killers less able to compete/desirable to use which will do what no one wants: Reduce variety even further. Nobody wants even more Nurses and Blights.
The only acceptable changes would be to deactivate the perk while within a few meters of a hooked Survivor or to make post-unhook BT not give stacks.
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You will only get to higher stack numbers at the later stages of the game and endgame, that would rob it of its value, also the reason m1 killers play that way is because they are far weaker than the better ones, they don't have such a good power to 12 hook and what not...
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Stbfl is top 4 for killer and mft is top 15 for survivor?
That what ur saying? If so, then it should be nerfed.
1 -
You're hilarious.
1 -
I agree. But the fact that this comes from a Blight main is somehow extremely funny.
1 -
It doesn't mean that.
It means that, in the top 20 most common Survivor builds (each of them including 4 perks), MFT is part of the build in 15 of them.
While STBFL, in the top 20 most common Killer builds, is present in only 4 of them.
It's not even comparable and it makes sense: MFT (at least until the nerf) can be part of basically any build and be valuable while STBFL isn't good on every Killer or every Build (eg: Nurse essentially can't use STBFL).
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