Idea for Disincentivizing Tunneling & Incentivizing Anti-Tunnelling
I'm a killer main who will occasionally play as survivor, but the thing that puts me off playing as survivor is when a killer tunnels me, because I'm simply not good enough in chase. There have been too many occasions where I've been killed off the game quicker than the amount of time it's taken to actually find a game in the first place.
I'm not against people who do tunnel, and admittedly I do tunnel when I'm killer, mainly because it's just the most meta tactic. If a survivor is killed with 3 or more gens remaining, even if the other 3 survivors have no hook stages, it is extremely rare for the survivors to win.
So here's my suggestion for disincentivizing tunnelling:
Part 1 (disincentivize tunneling): If a survivor has been killed out of the game whilst the other 3 survivors have a combined total of 2 hook stages or less, then the three remaining survivors get a 10% bonus to repairing, healing, cleansing, sabotaging, unhooking and exit gate opening, plus a 3% haste boost.
Part 2 (Incentivize anti-tunneling): If all 4 survivors have had at least 1 hook stage before any have been killed, then as soon as the 4th survivor is hooked for the 1st time, all the survivors have a 5% penalty to repairing, healing, cleansing, sabotaging, unhooking and exit gate opening, plus a 2% haste penalty. *EDIT* Some have made the suggestion that the last survivor to be hooked should have their aura revealed to the killer until they are hooked, which I also like, to prevent hiding/etc.
The numbers themselves are simply a guide, but if a rework of the game along these lines are implemented, then I think it could lead to a much more enjoyable game for both killers and survivors. It would obviously be a huge rework to the game, but I'd personally love it if these changes came into play.
I'm sure people will find gaping flaws in my suggestion, and I'd be happy to hear them.
Comments
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The numbers are a bit extreme, but I think this is a brilliant idea in general. Hope BHVR see this
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cool idea honestly. The penalty need to be 10% minimum to make any difference tho. The haste changes on both ends are unnecessary. This would definitely make some killers "play fair". Most these anti tunnel system suggestions go into convoluted route of making unhook survivors invincible but this one you propose make perfect sense.
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I'm not against this suggestion but I'd rather they don't play around with Haste. Movement speed is finicky that way. There is a reason that some killers are 5% slower than others and MfT is considered overpowered.
They could turn up the other numbers, or maybe even add something to help the killer find whoever they haven't hooked or hooked twice yet to incentivise going for more hooks and a higher bonus to healing and repairing could also be used to compensate for tunneling.
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Honestly, I wouldn't mess with the haste effect any further
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Yeah, I probably agree with the comments about movement speed. I also like your idea about making the aura of the last unhooked survivor being visible as soon as the 3rd survivor has been hooked.
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I would like see this kind of thing to become perk. But nice ideas overall.
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i forgot to say but after hooking 3 different survivors the last one aura should be reveal. Otherwise people will start hiding the last survivor as a tactic.
100%
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It's a bit like what Grim Embrace was trying to achieve. Although the reward was a bit meagre, there's no reason for other perks to follow in a similar vein for high rewards for spreading the hooks. So having some reward for playing in such a way should be rewarded.
The only thing I'd say is punishing a player for doing their role isn't a fair idea, so disincentivising a playstyle with substantial boosts for the other players will only ever end in resentment and people leaving. Rewarding is the way to go.
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It might work. But i feel like killers have to tunnel cause survivors are too damn efficient. Doing gens is boring and I think most players have gotten better at looping over the last 2 years. Most games that I play on both sides get to end game. Whether I'm playing the strongest killer or the weakest. Even when I put a lot of pressure on a team they still can get through 4-5 gens.
At some point the survivor objective needs to be changed into something else or they need to be given additional tasks to escape. But first maps need to be reworked so all of them are balanced. Then killers need to be buffed/nerfed.
How long that will take is anybody's guess. I wish BHVR would take a year to focus on just rebalancing the game instead of making new content every few months.
Until that happens we are stuck with the current meta of tunneling/slugging and gen rushing.
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Yeah, I like it. It would also prevent those random SoloQ survivors from just crawling around the edge of the map hiding all the time.
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Yeah, that's fair enough. Whilst part 1 of my suggestion was a punishment to the killer, I think part 2 of my suggestion was an incentivization.
I'm a killer main and tunnelling is meta. Whilst there will always be meta strategies, if the meta is not seen as fun, I believe the meta should be changed, including punishing those who make the game less fun. Just my opinion.
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I 100% agree that killers have to tunnel due to survivor efficiency, which is what my suggestions purely revolve around. At the moment, tunnelling make the game less fun, and anti-tunnelling makes it too difficult for the killer. SO my suggestions were to balance that out a little bit.
I also agree with you that there are plenty of other elements of the game that need reworking, including maps/perks/killers/etc.
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This is the kind of rubberbanding/comeback mechanic I think the game really needs. The effects would require a good bit of brainstorming/thorough testing, but incentivizing keeping survivors in the game as well as lessening how hopeless it gets as their numbers dwindle is what we really need.
I think the sweet spot of balance is 3.25 survivors (meaning 4 survivors are a bit stronger than macro balance, while 3 survivors puts things relatively in the killer's favor) so that would be what I would personally adjust the values to reflect.
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This is actually a solid idea. I would agree that the haste is a little too much and the values need adjusting but the core idea is really good. Thanks for sharing it here, hope the devs notice.
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Part 2 is absolute garbage, because some survivors like to excessively hide, and aren't worth the effort to find them, while there are other survivors that are much easier to find.
SWFs could just make sure there would be 1 survivor that's excessively hiding, or excessively protected, to make sure the killer never gets part 2 happening. Solo q could just have 1 player with perks like Distortion + Calm Spirit, that is excessively hiding and pre-leaving generators.
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The disincentive to tunneling does literally nothing here. Even with a 10% bonus to many actions, the lack of an entire survivor cuts efficiency by far, far more than this bonus.
The main problem with tunneling has nothing to do with repair or action speed, it's about action economy. With 4 survivors, you should have one on hook, one in chase, and one going for unhook, if you're pressuring correctly. That leaves one survivor on gens.
If you tunnel one out, this removes the survivor on gens and leaves no gen progress being completed, since the roles of 'hooked', 'chased' and 'going for save' are literally mandatory for survivors.
Tunneling one survivor out can mean the difference between *any* gen progress, and *no* gen progress, which is why it's so efficient. And it's also why this solution wouldn't change a single thing about tunneling.
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Thanks for the comment. In the earlier comments, some have suggested that the 4th survivor's aura is revealed to the killer until they are also hooked, which will prevent hiding/etc. I've updated my original post just now to reflect this.
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Excellent, overall, suggestion! Some tweakage to the penalties and numbers, for sure
Absolutely the convo that needs to be happening/ heard amongst the community/ Devs.
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Thanks for your comment. Well, if the devs took my suggestion seriously, they will have a better calculation of what the number %s should be to make it to be effective and balanced. The numbers I mentioned were mostly without too much thought; it was the general idea I wanted to put across.
But also, it wouldn't just be a 10% bonus, but a 15% bonus, if you also factor in the loss of the 5% penalty for the survivors should the killer decide to tunnel anyway.
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there shouldnt be a penalty for tunneling. there should be a reward for not. an example is grim embrace basekit
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Also, survivors shouldn't rely on a Decisive Strike buff to come in order to counter such a strategy that causes people to stop enjoying the game. We know it isn't coming anytime soon for whatever reason and so we need to find alternatives like this. A singular perk shouldn't be the only thing to counter such a common and cheap 'strategy'.
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We're talking about tunneling right when the game starts, not tunneling after a gen or more gets completed. It's neither fun to experience or do for both parties. Sure you can reward not tunneling, but most people playing like that have 2,000+ hours and don't need extra rewards. They wouldn't care.
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A reward for playing the game?
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To really incentivize going for that 4th Survivor, the effort required/reward needs to be huge. Either debuff the Survivor(Killer instinct reveal, exposed, windows or pallets get destroyed or blocked every 3 vaults etc), or have a high payoff like undoing 1 completed gen.
Like wise, if someone gets tunneled out before all 4 survivors are hooked at least once, the survivors gets 1 completed gen for free or the Killer gets debuffed (Aura is revealed to Survivors for some time/debuff to actions like attack animation/power cooldown/breaking speed/stun duration etc)
The reward from spreading hooks and punishment for tunneling one Survivor out first needs to be substantial or people will just ignore it and push past the minor incentives or restrictions.
People have been arguing that Killers should be properly rewarded for not tunneling apart from just getting a hookstate lol while others have called for Killers to be severely punished for tunneling.
How about both? Implementing a substantial incentive and damaging punishment would give Killer players double the reason to not tunnel and be properly rewarded for spreading hooks
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"*How about both? Implementing a substantial incentive and damaging punishment would give Killer players double the reason to not tunnel and be properly rewarded for spreading hooks*"
Ummm...the OP's suggestion is exactly this.
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I absolutely agree that metas are a bain on fun, so completely agree with you. I love the idea of incentivising and you have a good idea there.
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Behaviour doesn't see tunneling as a problem, they see it as a strategy so ideas like this will probably never be implemented, no different than ''focusing'' in league of legends were during a team fight you usually ignore the tank and focus the dps.
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So, here is a counter suggestion, instead of buffing the survivors if the killer tunnels,
- how about making gen repairs slower if the killer dont tunnel ? - i see repair speeds as the main cause for tunneling and i think this would be an effictive way to make the killer not tunnel.
- Lets say that the generators take +10 c/s longer to repair for each survivor hooked that have not been hooked before. (as with your example, numbers are just ment as an example)
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I think that maybe going for a unique set of Survivors should be incentivized more; maybe instead of role incentives, we can see Survivors and Killers get rewarded for making better or healthier plays.
Survivors should be rewarded for taking protection hits for teammates, rewarded for protecting teammates who are going to die, and rewarded heavily for progressing the objective. (Old Were Gonna Live Forever.)
Killers should be rewarded for hooking unique Survivors, using their powers effectively, and for handling chases well. (Old BBQ.)
Old We're Gonna Live Forever and BBQ enforced those ways of playing but players often felt restricted to using the perks since they would lose out on a lot of BP if they didnt use the perks, so I think this bonus should just become a basekit effect.
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This is why I think these sort of ideas should become perks. But, they need to be strong, meta perks in order to affect gameplay in a significant way and act as deterrents to tunnelling.
For example;
- Survivor Perk: For each survivor eliminated, you and any survivors within 4m of you, gain a 15% increase to repair speeds. Almost like a gradual form of Sole Survivor, with a bit of Prove Thyself in there too.
- Killer perk: Hooking all survivors once then slows repairs by 20%, and deactivates once a survivor is eliminated. That's almost as good as a Pentimento, it still rewards the killer for performance (scoring 4 hooks) but also rewards fair play (hooking unique survivors) and is self-limiting (deactivates once the killer is 'winning').
And really, any strong killer perks that A. gain power via hooks and B. lose power via sacrifices, would have this effect.
With enough of these sorts of things in the game, it eventually becomes a coin flip as to whether or not tunnelling is even worth it. Survivor might have DS, OTR, DH, or they might award their team mates faster repairs, or eliminating them early might cost you your own perks, etc. Too many downsides, potential or certain, known or unknown, building upon each other. So it's not just active perks that affect your chases direct like DS/OTR/DH, but all these additional factors too.
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The original suggestion buffed survivors if the killer tunnelled, and nerfed the survivors if the killer didn't tunnel. This is well-balanced imo.
All you're suggesting is to buff killers and nerf survivors.
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Disagree. Tunneling’s an issue; BHVR knows it’s an issue, and one they inevitably will address.
While Devs have maintained a “strat only” stance on Tunneling since DBD released, they’ve recently acknowledged the necessary times in-match to apply the technique. There are absolutely methods for disincentivizing the blatant abuse of inimically offensive Tunneling, and within the next 2 years we’ll see these tactics put into play, in-game, while still upholding the integrity of the timeliness of Tunneling. I’m excited and intrigued to see how they’ll do it!
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Because killers are in a really bad spot regarding gen speeds and anti gen, and survivors need no extra buff in that, this will just make it even worse and killers would have 0 chance, some survivors will abuse it and hide, so killer can only find the one just that were just hooked, to apply a buff on them self. Also that survivor that were just hooked could even do a gens in the face of the killer, while the rest hides, and if the killer hook them, survivors get buffed. Do you really think thats balanced? - i dont.
My suggestion rewards the killer for "playing fair" by giving them a better chance to win with out the need to tunnel, in a way that can not be abused.
Also, Like it or not, but both tunneling and slugging are still a legit strategies, and buffing survivors even more will completley remove that strategy..
Post edited by Unknown2765 on1 -
I like idea of introducing both disincentivize/incentivize mechanics for this.
I am fine with part 1 except speed boost, just not that again, we had enough... Issue is if you make it too good, you will have groups that will try to do it on purpose. Like why should survivors get so much and make killer struggle, when one survivor just gave up and killed himself on first hoook?
I don't think part 2 is good, it's simply boring and again simply makes good killers even better, which is not good thing imo.
I would much rather prefer Grim Embrace effect. It's not really good effect, but better than nothing. It's not going to destroy survivor games, you can't really abuse it with other perks like stacking slowdown. It works same for any killer.
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Btw another thing, with those changes you should display number of hooks per survivor to the killer.
It's not impossible to tunnel someone without noticing, mainly with multiple same survivors, so it wouldn't feel good to get punished for this.
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tunneling is playing the game too so I don't see your point. the reason tunneling is so common is because not tunneling is more of a detriment to the killer.
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Potential Solution to help alleviate frustration from camping and tunneling in addition to the current anti-camping mechanic currently in the game...
Rather than giving an unhooked survivor endurance give them the "Intangible Effect" for 10 seconds, while a survivor is Intangible, they receive no damage from any source and have no collisions with the following: Killer (Including Weapon, Player Model, and Power), and other survivors. Intangible, Endurance, and Haste effects are taken away if a survivor performs a conspicuous action before the effect expires. This would make it so if a survivor gets off the hook by any means BEFORE the gens are completed it is detrimental for the killer to pursue a recently hooked survivor for at least 10 seconds (longer if babysitter or BT are used to grant additional haste strength and/or duration), survivors will also be unable to body block and/or prevent the killer from pursuing and attacking other survivors for the duration of the effect.
Once the Exit Gates are Powered the intangible effect is replaced with the endurance effect.
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''Disagree. Tunneling’s an issue; BHVR knows it’s an issue, and one they inevitably will addres''
No that's not how I said it, behaviour knows tunneling and cammping are pretty hated mechanics, but they have stated they don't see it as an issue because they see it as a strategy, different take.
''I’m excited and intrigued to see how they’ll do it!''
Are they gonna implement something? maybe..if enough people cry about it, is it gonna work? Well, how is the ''anti cammping mechanic going so far? there you got your answer.
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