Is For The People + Buckle Up balanced?

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adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 764
edited November 20 in Feedback and Suggestions

The combo effectively full heals the survivor by giving them 2 extra life states. After hitting one survivor, the one other can tank another hit using their Endurance. The combo almost completely undos a chase that is won. It reminds me of old instant heal syringes but stronger.

Depending on the situation you're in, e.g. under a pallet or at risk of a flashlight save, it may be impossible to avoid it. The main way it gets me is when I'm kicking a pallet, another survivor randomly comes and uses the combo. I usually break the pallet before picking up the survivor.

Post edited by Rizzo on

Comments

  • Hunkulese
    Hunkulese Member Posts: 318

    It's not balanced at all, but it also almost never has a major impact on the game. The survivor also has to commit to shadowing chases to get value out of the combo. You get more consistent value just running around with a flashlight.

  • CrackedShevaMain
    CrackedShevaMain Member Posts: 100

    You admit in your post there is a counter in STBFL. Just because it may not have the strength that you want it to have does not equal no counter.

  • Mew
    Mew Member Posts: 1,813

    No, and ill go a step further and say buckle up is the problem.

    whats the point in ever running WGLF or new MFT when Buckle Up exists?

  • Chocolate_Cosmos
    Chocolate_Cosmos Member Posts: 4,706

    The only soft counter to it is STBFL and soloQ teammates not being well cordinated in timing.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 1,276

    Yeah, Buckle Up is the problem. They overtuned that perk. I'd greatly prefer if it did anything else, they should have buffed the old version instead of replace it.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 915

    nope, it's not.

  • lav3
    lav3 Member Posts: 711

    Far from balanced.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,524

    It certainly is annoying, but is super easy to deal with in the vast majority of circumstances.

    1. It can't be used if the Survivor is injured, so spreading pressure protects the Killer from an unwanted pickup.
    2. If the rescuing Surv is shadowing the chase the entire time, the Killer has 33% gen slowdown. That's better than Pentimento.
    3. The rescuing Survivor has to run during the hit CD of 2.7s, or reach ~11m distance. Outside of Ripley's Light Step, they can be seen and heard (only seen with Light Step), and most times give a free hit in the attempt (either during or prior).
    4. Even in the worst case scenario of the combo going off, the Killer still gets to hit one of them to prevent any other Endurance effect, and the FTP user can't heal for 60s to use it again. As such, simply hit the originally downed Surv after pickup and down them in chase normally again. Alternatively bodyblock windows/pallets/chokepoints and get a free hit or 2. If a Killer is taking ~80s (Broken+Heal timer) to down a single health state in chase, they have greater problems than this combo.

    Should it exist? No. Is it a problem? Also no (assuming the Killer has a modicum of skill/functioning brain).

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 856

    Balanced? Yes. Fun? That's a different question.

    Balance depends on how it impacts the overall game. To reliably use ftp + buckle up the survivor using it needs to devote 2 perk slots to it, and they have to follow the chased survivor around, meaning he's not on gens. Being he needs to be close to the chase, it creates the possibility of getting caught and an easy hit for the killer.

    If the survivor does pull it off, both survivors are now injured and the survivor can't use it for 60 seconds + however long it takes to get a heal. Then the killer can either swing through the endurance, or count to 11 in their head.

    Compare this to other means to try and save a downed survivor. A pallet save or flashlight don't cause a survivor to be wounded. A sabotage play is less likely to succeed, but it eats up far more of the killers time. All of those options require less perk combos to pull off.

    Is it a good combo? Sure, but you have to trade quite a bit for the benefits.

  • smurf8765
    smurf8765 Member Posts: 15

    Honestly I'm all for perk synergies, but Buckle Up's design seems to be against slugging rather than what it currently does with For the People in robbing a down for another 10+ seconds, longer if the endurance can take them to a loop.

    I'd keep the synergy, but make the endurance effect only happen when the dying survivor has been on the ground for 10-20 seconds without getting picked up.

  • blackfox0408_fr_
    blackfox0408_fr_ Member Posts: 21
    edited November 20

    I think a perk whose counter is not to play in a certain way but to have another perk is of bad desing, i think ftp should be nerfed to have the time to have been downed (or standing still if it seems more balanced idk) since 2 seconds or a little more, for the killer to have the time to counter the combo and still being punished if they play in a certain way ...

    And then it's perfectly balanced and nice to verse because of being counterable...

    Edit :

    I love how ppl say that and then will say to nerf STBFL because it's too strong, but it's strong because of the endurance meta ...

    And there is no possiblility of adding more counters... cause combo with STBFL would be too strong ...

    Post edited by blackfox0408_fr_ on
  • not_requested49
    not_requested49 Member Posts: 1,970
    edited November 20

    This

    I think they just ran out of ideas on buffing it lol

  • Hermit
    Hermit Member Posts: 326

    It’s ok for solo queue, SWF groups running this are the problem. Coordination is the factor that makes strong perks / combos busted.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 5,375

    we're gonna live forever and MFT are not good anti-slugging perks. they did not run out of ideas. the perk was ineffective slugging perk before. now buckle up works correctly.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,524

    STBFL is common because it is an M1 Killers dream perk. It helps shave all the worthless time in chase, and allows for double hits when the Survivor misplays (bad drop angles or runs into a wall or more).

    If you notice them you take the free hit. That forces them to now spend 16 real time/32 gen seconds healing after they walk over to find someone to heal them. Now you also have the choice of the 2 injured Survivors as to who you want to chase. The chase got longer by taking the free hit, but it got longer by less than the gen progress was lost by the Survivors by having the person shadow the chase and run back and forth to get healed.

    If 3 people simply did gens, you have (chase time x 3) gen seconds. If you have a FTP+BU user (successfully using it), you have (chase time x 2) + an additional chase time x 1, with the added risk of a snowball potential on the Survivor side by having an extra injury, and a grouped gen once they heal (60s later). In the best case the Survivors tie on gen times, (and prevents an early tunneled kill), but in most cases they lose health states for no (long-term) beneficial reason.

    The only circumstance I agree it can be powerful is when people are using it to prevent an early tunnel kill. I go for 6-8 hooks before my first kill though, so I view nothing of value being lost. It helps to improve Killer skill to delay the first kill as long as possible, and it lets Survivors play the game longer, so unless the match is played for money, its a win-win to not tunnel.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 234

    I mean, do you think flashlight save / bodyblocking is worth it in DBD?

    I would say yes.

    Buckle up + for the people makes it guaranteed to happen.

    Thing is when we used it in few games, we basically used it to save resources. Basically instead of dropping shack pallet, survivor greed it like crazy and when got downed we saved with FTP.

    Of course it doesn't work when survivor waits there for a minute watching you chase, but that survivor nearby means I don't have to care about getting downed and can just greed everything and killer can't really stop it.

  • dwight444
    dwight444 Member Posts: 65

    ppl don't consider this and just look at things in a vacuum

    they throw a tantrum that their long chase has to restart and it will take them another million years to down a survivor and it's not their skill blah blah blah...

  • IHSGames
    IHSGames Member Posts: 41

    I think its a fun combo. I don't think its OP or unbalanced. You still get an injure without having to do work via someone using FTP. And the edurance can be quite a hassle but 2 injures with half the work is fine. HOWEVER, it is very much annoying and unfun to deal with.

    The issue resides with FTP synergy with Buckle Up. FTP is already strong as it's literally an insta-pickup. That's why youre injured and broken when you use it because it's effect is so strong. With Buckle Up, it negates the downsides. I don't think Buckle Up is a bad perk. It requires you to pick up someone. Only downside is compared to WGLF, it doesn't have the pickup speed. I think Buckle Up shpuld stay the same.

    FTP should negate all synergy with endurace perks related to its effect, like how MFT is with the perk currently (as MFT doesn't trigger with FTP) if you want endurance on pickups, it should require time and planning such as looping a killer until the survivor can be picked up since they be 99% progress from being picked up. Or using WGLF pickup speed and risking going down to pick up a survivor and gain endurance from Buckle Up. Basically, you gotta risk and work for it, something Buckle-Up-For-The-People doesn't do.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,524

    Flashlight save/bodyblocking worth it - I would say mostly no with a large 'depends'. The majority of circumstances would make it a bad proposition. Bodyblocking post hook (as the unhookee) may induce tunneling, so that hurts the chances of success. Bodyblocking to soak up a Killer's Bloodlust 3 is an excellent use on the other hand. Bodyblocking to effectuate a 4 out also is an excellent use. Bodyblocking to feed Mettle of Man is fun, but ultimately throwing. Bodyblocking to take a hit en-route to hook is also (99% of the time) throwing.

    Similar with Flashlight saves. Most of the times they fail against a Killer actually trying, so the time lost in the attempt was worthless. At the same time the time gained on success can be valuable. In my matches as both sides, the Killer is far far far less likely to get hit by a blind rescue and thus the Survivor was throwing in the attempt (in the majority of those attempts). Maybe in lower brackets where blinds have a 99% success rate it is worth it, but not in any match I've been in since my first month or two in the game.

    That's the main issue, in aggregate, Bodyblocking/Flashlight/FTP+BU lose matches for Survivors, but are fun for Survivors when they work. At the same time, it can sting all the harsher when as Killer and you get hit by one of them. I just remember the 38 prior matches of failed blind attempts (that won me the game) when I carelessly get hit by the blind(s) in a match, and carry on with my day. Same with all of those things. As Killer I always have a better option, and it is on me to learn and take it.

  • ghouliese
    ghouliese Member Posts: 4

    Just give Buckle Up the same requirement as gaining a WGLF token. I run FTP and Buckle Up to help combat tunneling in solo and when I'm playing with friends that aren't as experienced as me.

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 714

    Buckle up is broken even by itself insane it hasn't been nerf there is little risk for the user when both get protection

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 501

    This combo is a prime example of why people say "the devs don't play their own game."

    Mere minutes to make a difference before gens are done and you're going to table something like insta-pickup with 10 seconds invincibility for the victim and rescuer...

    Could we please have somebody with more experience with DbD's game flow in charge of making these sorts of development calls? And will you guys please stop stonewalling the killer experience with 'endurance?'

  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 129
    edited November 22

    No. It removes all of the risk For The People originally had and essentially makes both survivors temporarily healthy. Individually, the perks are fine (albeit buckle up might be a bit strong still), but together they're an issue.

  • CaulDrohn
    CaulDrohn Member Posts: 1,504

    In the end game, with a gate remotely in proximity, when the killer cannot afford spreading damage bc that would allow all to run out, this combo guarantees free espapes without any risk. I wouldn't call that balanced.

    What's mind-blowing about that, the devs are fully aware that some effects are too strong in end game, so they safeguard it. DS, OTR, Pig traps, AFC, eben Batteries Included, all disabling in end game. But then they rework buckle and don't seem to think a second what that could mean in end game.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 856

    I'll stick with that this is a fun issue, not balance.

    To be in this scenario survivors must:

    1: Make it to the end game. Not just the survivors as a group, but specifically the one who needs to use this perk.

    2: The survivor with FTP+Buckle Up to be uninjured (meaning that they could not have used the ability within the last minute + how ever long it took to get healed).

    3: The killer to not have seen this during the rest of the game to avoid opportunity to play around it.

    This is like NOED or other end game perks by the killer. The survivors don't have any direct way to outplay them (especially that first NOED hit) other than just never letting the killer be in a position to get value from them.

  • BooperDooper
    BooperDooper Member Posts: 178

    Separately I think they are personally fine, together... it's insane. I downed a survivor at a window, vaulted over and now they're up again and both players have endurance, you'd have to insta pick as soon as you down them. To work for a down just for a survivor to get up instantly and be essentially fully healed for 10 seconds is crazy.

    It would be nice if they could make them synergise less without ruining their individual perk use, but idk if that's possible.

  • CaulDrohn
    CaulDrohn Member Posts: 1,504

    1. Reaching end game is not so difficult for a coordinated team (does not have to be swf necessarily, but they tend to be more coordinated). Esp when the killer plays "fair" and spreads hooks. Only for the survivors to reward this kindness by using a free escape combo.

    2. Sure. But they can plan for it, so what's the point?

    3. You can be fully aware that the perk is present, and still not have the chance to hit the user, bc that would allow all survivors the escape. That's exactly my point.

    The combo creates lose-lose situations in end game for the killrr. DS and OTR do not work in end game to not create such situations, but for "For the buckle" that's fine somehow?

  • Skitten56
    Skitten56 Member Posts: 83

    Buckle Up should only give endurance to the person who does the pickup. That way survivors will have to dedicate a hefty 3 perks and use WGLF in order to have a protected FtP rescue build. Without all those perks killers can then reasonably expect to just hit the person who just got up safely unless the survivor fully commits to the build.

    I think this is fairly balanced because again, uses up 3 valuable survivor perk slots. Also the fact that WGLF has activation conditions so they don't just get it for free and instead have to work for it.

    This compromise allows altruistic players to still enjoy FTP combinations but making them invest/work for it a lot more, while not punishing the killer too much and giving them better options in many cases.