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Flamethrowers Are NOT Counterplay (Or At Least Not A Good One
Ever since Alien has came out, not a single match has been fun with Xeno. I've only won 1 game against her and it was due to it being on the PTB, where people are learning the killer. And it's all because the killer has very ineffective counterplay.
You see, Xeno has Crawler mode which allows him to shoot his tail over most loops to damage survivors. Nothing wrong with anti-loop. HOWEVER, Xeno use his tailwhip INSTANTLY. There no pre-Wind Up animation like Huntress Hatches, Nemisis whip, Wesker's Bound, hell even Victor's pounce. With a single press, Xeno can instantly whip you with little to no time for you to prepare or react. Because of this, its also easy for Xeno to Basic Attack instantly as well. Since theres no windup animation, Xeno doesn't have to wait till that animation ends to Basic Attack like most killers I mentioned, meaning that faking pallets and windows is impossible as he can wait and Basic Attack. If you try to vault the window, pallet stun or vault a pallet, you get hit with her tail. All you can do is pray they miss.
Does anyone not see how problamatic this is? You cant loop her. Youre punished for using the basic fundemental mechanics of survivors. Pallets and windows. Which is supposed to help you either counter or outlast the killer in chase, even for a little bit. And some might say "or just use the turrnets" the turrents are near damn useless.
You see, turrents are supposed to make Xeno come our of Crawler mode. But most games I played, I've barely ever seen a Xeno out of that mode. Turrents doesn't burn Xeno out of Crawler mode fast enough as it can tail whip the flamethrower from a distance or even use Add-Ons to resist the Flamethrowers all together. "Yall need to place flamethrowers by loops" some might say which is very flawed. I have to go and pick up a Flamethrower, become hindered and god forbid if Xeno finds me with it, Place turrent by a loop and god forbid if Xeno destroys it before I gain any value from it, then go back to a gen. It takes so much time setting a turrent by a loop which you couldve used for Gen time instead. And all of that work can be removed in a second with no promise that itll take Xeno out that mode.
But thats not all. I have to loop her around the flamethrower. Looping her around it will buy me distance, but not enough to promise value. Plus she can still destroy it with her tail without it taking her out that mode. Now all that time I used placing a flamethrower down is for nothing. I wasted time setting it down, and I'm still going to go down to its unavoidable Whip/Basic Attack combo. And THATS NOT ALL, if I DO manage somehow to burn Xeno out of Crawler mode, it can easily go back into a tunnel and gain crawler mode back SO QUICK I won't even have time to grab another turrent to prepare. You get punished for looping, vaulting, pallet stunning and the only sort of "counterplay" isn't enough and punishes me for even using it in the first place. AND it also has map traversal so it can be at one place to another quicker than anyone can process.
Mind you, I have 1500 hours in DBD. I'm not the best but I can loop decently. Maybe a 1-2 gen chase maximum. I refused to use Dead (Dash) Hard. I barely use nerfed Dead Hard. I've never ONCE used Made For This and many meta perks because theyre not fun for killer and I'm all for fun for both sides. I don't let my perks carry me so this criticism is coming from a place of skill and not complaining because "Killer not easy to loop"
What am I supposed to do to win against this killer? Even high tier killers have some sort of actually decent counterplay that can help win a match. For Blight, its predicting where he moves as well as his techs. Same thing with Wesker. For Spirit, you can at least use Auditory cues that help out alot despite it not being the best. Even Nurse has counterplay via double-backing or loosing line of sight. And yeah, Nurse turns every chase into a 50-50, but at least Nurss is HEAVILY punished for missing unlike Xeno. And not just that, Nurse is HEAVILY restricted by making her a very slow killer, so at least if theres not good counterplay for her, at least shes restricted enough to not make her super opressive. With Xeno, thats sadly not the case. I really want someome to tell me, out of everything I've mentioned, what can I do against Xeno??
Xeno needs to be changed. Multiple ways in order to make them fair to go up against. First, they need a Pre-Wind-Up animation so not only can Survivors react to their Whip attack, but as well as prevent Xeno's from easily using their Basic Attacks on Survivors instantly like how Nemesis whip works. You shouldn't be able to easily switch attacks like that to make up for a misplay on a whip, or even to zone a survivor.
Second, make Flamethrowers more useful. If I'm going out of my way, wasting precious gen time to put down something to helo me with the killer, then it should helo me and not punish me. I have 4 solutions:
1. Whenever Xeno is burned, they can't Tail whip But they can gain back their Crawler mode quickly via tunnels.
2. Xeno will always be burned out of crawler mode but can Tail Whip to remove flamethrower and still has the ability to gain Crawler mode back via tunnels.
3. Xeno remains the same. Flamethrowers doesn't burn her as fast and she can still Tail Whip the Flamethrowers to destroy them BUT once theyre burned out of Crawler mode, they can't speed it up by going into the tunnels. They will have to wait out the full duration of the cooldown.
Please, if anyone disagrees and think Xeno is fair and any of these solutions will gut her down to F tier, I suggest you guys actually hop on survivor and play against a Xeno, especially one that knows what theyre doing and tell me how many matches you won and what did you do against them to survive in chase long enough. NOT beat them in chase...SURVIVE. I don't want killers to get gutted but Xeno is too problamatic. Especially against Solo Q. Please let me know any or your thoughts below!
Comments
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I don't have problems with Xeno. Turrets serve 3 things that's helps survivors. It has a motion sensor alerting you if Xeno is nearby doesn't matter if she's underground or undetectable once it starts beeping fast get running you got a head start. When it does turn off briefly that means Xeno came out of a tunnel somewhere. When Xeno does get burned the killer must decide to be hindered, break it giving you distance or lose crawler mode. Going back into a tunnel just means the killer gave up on chase so congrats.
Her tail I've noticed it really hard to tail strike someone at loops with constant turning around corners or the loop happens to be mostly a circle. Her tail can't turn left or right like Nemesis whip can so don't ever want to run in a straight line or your gonna be easy to strike. Her wind up may be the fastest compared to the others, but it's still there. Try not to vault early and bait it out.
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When you said "But thats not all. I have to loop her around the flamethrower. Looping her around it will buy me distance, but not enough to promise value."
In my opinion that's the point of the Flame Turrets, to buy you time, and not a guarantee crawler to walker mode Xeno.
For change 1 I kinda agree but it's an unnecessary change, For 2 it's unfair to instantly remove a killers power, you could just put a flame turret out in the open, get the killers attention and literally create an area where if Xeno goes, they are punished. For 3, it takes sooooo long to not get into crawler mode, but get in and out of the tunnels. You would've lost chase, if you decided to go into tunnels to get crawler mode.
Also you act as if EVERY SINGLE XENO can effectively use the tail whip, it's a mechanic never before seen on killer, kinda like Deathslinger but not really. It's extremely hard to use
I do agree with the tail whip, but I believe Xeno's tail actually does go back for like a second then attack. But it really isn't enough.
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I generally have good success in planning my route ahead while on a gen and placing the turret strategically. Most people put them in front of the tunnel but the killer expects that. I'll place mine behind an obstacle the killer can't see when exiting the tunnel or from the gen, and in the vicinity of where I plan to run. When they're caught by surprise they're slower to react and generally it's easier to knock them out of crawler mode at the start of our chase.
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Turrets are the thing you use with him tho. If all 4 are placing them consistently, he has a hard time.
It doesn't always knock him out of crawler mode, but it's definitely a henderance.
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I am not reading that wall of text, flamethrowers ARE counterplay
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Xeno is fine. Turrets give you information, remove Xeno's power, hinders them, and if the Xeno dedicates time to destroy them is on cooldown, giving you time to make distance. The point of having a fast M2 and being able to M1 freely is that Crawler Mode is supposed to be powerful, and you are supposed to try and get Xeno out of it. Place turrets on hills, near important loops, anywhere that forces the Xeno to interact with the Turret or lose their power.
"Please, if anyone disagrees and think Xeno is fair and any of these solutions will gut her down to F tier, I suggest you guys actually hop on survivor and play against a Xeno, especially one that knows what theyre doing and tell me how many matches you won and what did you do against them to survive in chase long enough. NOT beat them in chase...SURVIVE. I don't want killers to get gutted but Xeno is too problamatic. Especially against Solo Q."
I don't think assuming that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't play Survivor at all. I survived my last 3 Xenos by putting the effort to put turrets in important spots before getting to gens, planning my run and thinking carefully instead of just relying on looping.
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You just need to learn where to place your turrets where it's going to help you and hassle the killer the most. It's absolutely worth the few extra seconds to get your turret in a good spot.
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All your wall of text are "not placing the turrets correctly" symptoms.
I agree he is "problematic" against soloQ, but he is not the only one, Cenobite is even a more powerful against soloQ due the Lament Configuration, but it is not a problem of the killer really, it's just a stupidity problem of people who refuse to use the counters and only want to stick to the gens.
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Xeno's fine. I think some of his addons are a bit too strong, but nothing major. You can loop the xeno, it's harder than other killers and requires changing how you play. God pallets are not nearly as strong, but weaker pallets with shorter loops become more powerful if you have something to circle around. You need to leave loops more frequently, the crawler mode makes it hard to see him, but also allows a jump when running from a loop.
Turrets aren't meant to give the survivor who places them some form of absolute protection. As a survivor place turrets to help your teammates, if being chased head for the turrets. Even if they don't knock the killer out of crawler (and I agree they should be a little better at it) that time they slow the xeno down is critical. Even with the cooldown on destroyed turrets, the survivors will always get more.
If the xeno gets knocked out of crawler and jumps in a tunnel, keep running, you'll get plenty of distance.
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sounds like a genuine skill issue.
if you and your team dont constantly put new turrets & build a path in a such a way that xeno is constantly made to eat turret value, you're playing against xeno wrong.
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@ Xeno supporters, did you play a round on Hawkins against him? I am just curious, where did you place the turrets there? 95% of the map are a turret-no-no zone. Same goes for Larry's. If the map restricts the counterplay so heavily by offering me only bad poistions for the turrets then the counterplay is not a counterplay, as it is dependent on the map. My biggest problem with xeno is that you can't dodge his tail on flat loops unlike nemesis via crouching. The Tail shoots above you,he just does some camera-magic and you still get hit while not having an animation like nemesis. Really cool.
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That's more of a map problem as it hasn't been updated since 2021, killers like Knight are even worse to play against on that map.
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That is Hawkins issue, not Xenomorph issue at all. I wouldn't say that was good claim to blame Xeno.
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So the intended counterplay does not work everywhere, so it's the external factor to blame and not the counterplay design?
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Of course. You should ask devs that turrets to work in Hawkins. As you know, Hawkins is the map that came back, and Xeno is released after the delete of Hawkins, so turrets don't work well in some places there. Similarly, Wesker cannot use his power in some location of Hawkins.
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Xeno to me basekit is fine. The turrerts are good counterplay being able to know where she is even when she is undetectable or under the map. She should be having a strong power so she just won't be a m1 killer all game. I think if people were a bit smarter facing xeno she'll be fine. I use her a lot and you can get her out of her power easy if you know what to do. I just think the problem is how some of her add-ons remove or make her have less counterplay. Her power base-kit wise is just fine as is. For the maps. It's more of a map problem for sure. Also just make her turrets more placable in those maps it's not xenos fault; Just the maps fault. But in reality, she's fine as is.
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K unlike some I read your text. It seems that the bigger thing your annoyed at isn't the turrets themselves, but the tail attack. In this? I agree. It isn't telegraphed enough. In any other killer there is a telegraph before the attack. I think the window between the attack and the hit should be slightly adjusted. I am thinking half a second or less. To account for some people not having a high enough reaction time.
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Honestly, Alien is powerful in the right hands, but the flamethrowers aren't supposed to just delete the Xeno's power everytime.
This guy (one of the best Xeno players around) made a whole video on it.
The Hawkins issue is because the map is years outdated and unchanged from the time it got removed, many Killer powers have issues on this map due to the outdated design and layout.
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