Tunnelling is a Joke!
Comments
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Then we should make it possible for the killer to go for as many hooks as possible right?
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Tunnelling is a pain. I don't do it unless I feel it is my only option which does not happen very often. However, tunnelling can be efficient if as many people have said you tunnel the weak link of the team. This slows down the game more then most think. Some tunnellers play normally after that some keep going for the weaker ones until you are left with one or two people. I hate tunnellers as it ruins the fun for me when I play as survivor therefore I don't do it as a killer but I do see the logic behind it. I do think once you get into higher MMR and everyones better you will have a harder time.
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This. Bring back that extra second or two from desisive. Tunneling feels crappy when it happens to you. I hate it. I don't get to play, I lose points pip and time.
When I have a streak of matches where I'm getting tunneled I swap over to killer or just atop playing. It's not fun. It ruins the game.
I get why it's done but it's a game killer for survivors. Wish devs would think of something
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They died perfectly fine before DS/BBQ nerfs (and all the survivor meta perks nerfs and basekit killer buffs). It was just the killers weren't spoiled yet and were better. And yes there was tunneling (camping and slugging too) back then just not even close to this degree.
Yeah bring back old DS, just keep endgame nerf. Or have basekit endurance (or change OTR) when unhooked endurance lasts until someone else is hooked or 180 seconds which ever is longer, being hit does nothing, conspicuous action does nothing UNLESS another person is hooked or game registers a protection hit then endurance goes away.
Reason I say conspicuous action should do nothing is because this was also part of another DS nerf. I get the argument if you have time to do a totem or gen you're not being tunneled but as time has shown killers will pretend to drop chase briefly so survivor touches something only to resume tunneling, newsflash IT'S STILL TUNNELING.
There's very little distinction between loopholes and "mind games" these days.
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Dont you think it is possible? Or rewarding?
But i am always for good killer design tho, if this is what you are implying here. A killer that can go for many hooks are Blight, Billy or Demo, just to name a few. Named killers are overall considered fun killer, by survivor at least.
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Yeah, they shouldn't do this, but as a survivor main who always hates the 'to counter X, just bring Y perk' talking point, I'd laugh so hard at the karma if this happened.
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The closer both sides are in terms of skill level, the more important eliminating one person from the game as soon as possible becomes as mistakes become more impactful on both sides.
If people support the idea that people of similar skill level should be matched with each other, then they also need to accept that focusing hook states on 1-2 people is much better than spreading them out among 4 people.
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Just no. Why should this be acceptabel? Because it is meta right now? Because it is the way it is? There is 0 reason not to change that. Or is it your opinion that the most fun you can have on both sides is to play that way?
The ideal for this game is that killer is going for as many hooks as poosible without camping and tunneling. Would you disagree? If so, what is then more fun then many chases?
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But people of similar skill level isnt happening much, while tunneling is very much. Players don't code MMR variables, but killers can choose to tunnel.
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The ideal for the killer role is to eliminate all four survivors before the trial ends (exit gates open). How that happens—equal distribution of hooks, mori, tunneling, w/e—is inconsequential. Killers aren’t punished (nor should they be) for how they kill survivors. They’re only punished, if you will, for not killing survivors.
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TC is a drive-by master.
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That is true. Killers are not punished for tunneling, which is the problem.
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If the Survivors were less skilled than the Killer, then yes the game can be about chases and hooks instead of getting one person out early.
However the current iteration of dbd doesn’t allow for enough time to go for multiple hooks not incentivizes the Killer doing so. The longer 4 Survivors remain in the Trial, the lower the chances of the Killer making a comeback in general.
If Killers were forced to spread hooks in the current iteration of dbd before they could get a Survivor out of the game, the kill rate will definitely plummet. Low Killer gameplay satisfaction leads to fewer killers playing and 10 minute Survivor queues may make a comeback which no one wants.
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Thew problem is also killers aren't incentivized to not tunnel. The best we have atm is an honor system: we 'hope' they won't tunnel out of good will.
They're goal is to literally kill the survivors. I dont put much hope in appealing to their good nature lol.
This is a fundamental that needs to change in dbd if this 'game' gets more game characteristics such as 'having fun'.
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Cool story. I haven't been tunneled probably in 50 survivor games in a row. Lots of survivors consider everything tunneling now so I don't even trust these posts anymore.
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Billy and Demo cant do that without heavy slowdown, a fitting map for their power and in case of Billy, near perfect execution of his power. I main Demo and a friend of mine mains Billy. Going for many hooks with both of them is not realistic against very decent survivors that make very little mistakes.
Blight is another level. His power is way stronger than most killers, being anti loop and mobility in one package. That this is too strong is debatable. In my opinion it is for the overall health of the game too strong but thats not the argument here.
I say, that going for many hooks is definitely rewarding and possible. But, it is not very realistic to win with many killers against very decent survivors with this mindset. Why not? Overall killer strenght, maps being unbalanced, perks making chases take longer, perks making gens go faster, Survivors playing tiles really good and not falling for mindgames or the simple pre drop shift w.
I main pig (as many know). Therefore i have to commit to chases early on. This can make me lose 2-3 gens. I can still go for many hooks after that, but only because i have the strongest form of slowdown in my kit the game has to offer. A killer like Clown, Wraith or even the mentioned Demo or Billy dont have that.
If we want killers to go for as many hooks as possible, killers like Blight and Nurse can and should not be the standart, but should be toned down. Then, a reward mechnic for multible hook stages could be implemented so that killers that take longer naturally can go for many chases and still have a chance to win a game.
This is my opinion on the matter.
Last but not least, i have to ask. Why do you think is the Hillbilly considered a fun killer to go against by survivors but NOT considered a fun killer to play as?
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Billy is definitely top 3 for me in terms of fun as a survivor. His one shot mechanic is a lot better than Bubba or stalking killers due to the execution needed to play billy. His mechanic is counterable, but one mistake and he can get ya. THATS good design imo. Billy is a blessing in this game lol.
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I mean that goes both ways. I swear like 80% of the time when I play what is considered "honourable" by the survivors and go for the 12 hook, no tunneling, no camping approach i get some teabags at the exit gate, an essay of why this was the easiest Match of their entire life and when im lucky even a "noob killer" comment on my Profile.
From my perspective it makes no sense not to tunnel. You make the game harder for yourself by playing against 4 when u could against 3 and the filthy tunneler comments and teabags for that are replaced by the ez comments and teabags for that.
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I usually have Schroedinger's Unbreakable. Everytime I use it, killers pick me up instantly. And when I don't use it, they leave me to the ground 😂
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I feel like they should add another gen (or 2) that needs to be completed by survivors so it's 6 instead of 5 and then add more to prevent tunneling (and maybe slightly nerfing gen regression perks since survivors will have more to do). That way survivors aren't faced with constantly being tunneled and killers don't feel so much pressure with gens. Therefore tunneling eliminated... ta da... obviously there's more to it then that but to give the general idea.
Although I know a lot of survivors feel like the game is already gen repairing simulator, so maybe there is something else that can be done, but just a thought. I think a lot of survivors who don't feel comfortable in chase/really don't like getting tunneled would feel more relieved.
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Does this include Ping-Pong tunneling as well?
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I respect your opinion even tho i dont agree. Especially the map part. The number of unsafe palets on each map times the number of actual palets... there is no way this will become any lower. The majority of maps come with 9-15 palets on average with at least 30% beeing completly unsafe.
No offense but i think you are exaggerating a little bit. At least you make it sound like it is super hard to win with Billy or Demogorgon. Lets be totally honest with yourself. If you are a strong Demo, and i am sure you are, how often do you really loose a game? Couldnt it be that most times you win and only once in a while you run into those games that feel like unwinable? I have to assume this is the case. When even i can win 20 games in a row with the Trapper not tunneling and camping, for sure a strong Demogorgon has no problem with that either.
Billy is a fun killer to play against. I never said he is not a fun killer to play as. I guess every killer can be fun to play, especially a mechanically complex one as Billy.
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I have to exaggerate the importance of perks and addons here.
I play Demo with Lethal, bbq, stbfl and huntress lullaby (lol) I have no real slowdown. Demo has a weak early game. Setting up portals takes time. Most maps are really huge. This is the real problem i have with most maps. It takes a long time to find people.
Lethal helps with that, but what if you dont have these perks? Use the purple addon every game? Then you have to set up a bunch. Also takes time. Demos shred is practically useless at most rounded loops in the game. On others its practically a pallet break power. In the open, the Shred mostly works as a zoning tool because its fairly easy to dodge and with the recently discovered (and humiliating) courch-tech even easier to avoid (even if the demo plays it correctly). MFT doesnt help either. Some of the squared loops, where Demo can use the shred are so short that i barely have seconds, where i have the ccorrect distance to hit the survivor. With MFT, these seconds vanish. The survivor makes it around the corner. This leaves us with a killer that has to set up, has a mediocre chasing power that can be outplayed by using MFT, using DH, Maps (rounded loops), the survivor reacting fast and dodging and funny crouching.
Again, i use barely any slowdown. Therefore you could tell me that im setting myself up for losing. I could therefore use pain res, pop goes the weasel, devour hope, deadlock or corrupt intervention. But that would mean i play the perks more than the killer. I very much dislike that.
If you think that on all maps 30% of pallets are unsafe, i would like to introduce you the the Gideon meat plant. That to say, you also have to mention that the pallet is unsafe for what killer. Unsafe for m1 killers? Unsafe for Demo? Unsafe for Blight? Its more complicated than this. I would say that Cowshed, despite its rework in size is still home to the most unfair tiles in the game: Long tiles, shack and cow tree. But again, these tiles are unfair for m1 killers. Not for Demo or Blight or others.
My friend cant play Billy for more than 2-3 matches per day. (He plays this killer for almost 2 years now and has him at p100). Billy is awful to play. He has the combination of being very hard to play and having to be played well to perfom ok. With the introduction of small hitboxes on many maps, killers like Billy became expremely hard and punishing to play. Bumping into a hitbox that you can barely see (with shadowborn) and being punished with a 3 second cooldown that basicly ends the chase it surely fun for the survivor but definitely not for the killer.
To conclude: i lose a lot with Demo. I win like 3 out of 10 matches. Is that because i dont use effective regression or slowdown? Probably yes.
What do you use on your Trapper to win so consistenly?
You also have to be honest with yourself. Some matches are UNWINNABLE. If i run into a 4man deathsquad ( did that 3 days ago with my main, Pig, and didnt even get a down. Yes it was this ridiculous!), you are not prepared (strong killer, strong addons, strong perks and map of your choice) and your game goes like this: Demo with brown addons, one chase, 2 aura and one meme perk and they send me to garden of joy. Your cards are very bad. If they dont make huge mistakes, you are going to lose. Especially if you want to go for many hooks.
But again, this comes down to who wants to win more. Which in this case would be the 4man deathquad.
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Theres a difference between lasting longer than 30s in chase and escaping one. Attempting to escape can (and in my opinion should) be done immediatly after the chase begins. Changes to limit the amount of time chases can be milked or drawn out dont prevent a survivor's ability to act on or use those resouces to escape.
My thoughts on soft caps to chase is that its meant to encourage survivors to break away sooner so as to avoid the killer building that advantage.
As to your last question; how is it your fault? It goes both ways, the killer is responsible for sinking so much time into a pallet dance over simply breaking it. You fault comes from accepting that attention while knowing that the loop will become unviable given enough time.
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You should read it all.
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Its not a great example because gen just being done in 10s as you put it is an example that ignores all of the interactions that take place for someone to be tunneled out early. So its not a great comparison and when you have to go for extreme examples to make your point then you have a weak point. So lets leave that one on the floor where it belongs.
My point is the experience isn't awful.
The high stakes nature of it makes it exciting.
People just need to get over the boo hoo factor of being eliminated early.
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Yeah, this happens with Unbreakable too.
Had a few games where killers slugged, brought UB for the next match, only to not be slugged. My disappointment was immeasurable, and my day was ruined.
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just wait until you reach prestige 100, they tunnel you even harder and then follow up with hate messages.
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No, i made only an exreme example to make it more clear. And yet there is no explantion. Anyway, lets leave it to that.
The experience is not awful? Tons of people complain about that nonstop that the experience is so awful. Of course its aweful, maybe not from your pov but the majority would disagree with that.
It is never a strong argument when it starts with "people need to get over...". Because they dont. Nothing is set in stone, changes can be made. And with the amount of tunneling right now, there is a very high chance they will make changes.
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Nah a 1k in every cimcurstance means the killer got clapped on. Should never be proud for getting dunked on.
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I appreciate that you clarify that they are fun for survivors, because that much is true. However if the survivor team is sentient there is no way a billy or demo can get 12 hooks, if that happens the team had to severely misplay that match as both of those killers are very easy to loop.
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The only way you would get rid of tunneling is if a substantial amount of survivors stopped paying and playing DBD enough where the financial impact is greater then the cost of developing a modified game without tunneling.
Besides that, play the board game. The mechanically superior version of DBD.
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It depends a lot on how coordinated survivors are and how good the billy is of course. I dont play Billy that much, but i do like demo. When i face a very strong survivor team, i am happy to get 6-7 hook stages. But the truth is, there is like one of ten games where i would run into that kaliber of team. I have way more 9-12 hook stage games with Demo then 6-7.
People here always makes it sound (not you spefically, dont get that wrong) that every lobby is full of comp players and it is impossible unless you have a time machine and play Mega blink Nurse. In reality, killer sit on 60% killrate. Where are those kills always coming from if every game is so impossible?
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It didn't really need an example, it was self defeating comparison on its own.
But here goes... Gen repair speed is a measurable mechanic that can be altered up and down, whom the kill player choses to chase is a subjective intangible. This choice is up to the player and then attenuated by decisions made by players during chase. Comparing the two directly is a flawed concept.
If people want to talk mechanics/strats to minimize the chances of early elimination then great (I gave some strats in my first reply), but that's not what's being discussed here at least not what the OP started with. It started with a healthy dose of boo hoo.
Frankly you are never gonna get an objective discussion of "tunneling" as a tactic if people can't get over the boo hoo element first. Because if players are too hung up on the boo hoo they'll never be open or able, to have an objective discussion about early elimination.
My point still stays the same as it always has, The very real threat of early elimination makes DBD exciting to play.
I'd hate to see player choice about who they can chase be removed simply because some players can't take being eliminated early in an elimination game.
Same reason I enjoy MWO, once you blow up you're gone. It forces you to play smart, try not to get caught out, be mindful of positioning. Its exciting. Its a harshly unforgiving thing... but a good thing.
Compare it to COD where people play mindlessly and just run in circles amongst the enemy spraying bullets till they die because they'll respawn and get to do it all over again, there are real no stakes, no real thrill, it kinda sucks.
People complain that the mechanics of DBD are boring. Here's your take on it from earlier "3 people have a snooze fest by sitting on gens (hopefully). No gameplay, no interaction with the killer. I hope everybody agrees on that sitting on gens is the least intersting thing in DBD."
But their solution to that is to try and suck any tangible thrill out of the game by removing the threat of early elimination. If your team mate is being targeted you have the power to get involved and try to stop it. If players choose to sit on gens as a response then tunneling isn't really the problem.
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