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How do you think the devs should handle the issue of tunneling?
Comments
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This is a viable tactic. You're chasing one, other one comes and takes a protection hit and gets downed. Third person comes to heal that who took the protection hit while killer is chasing the first survivor.
That's three, THREE survivors not doing gens.
Just sit on gens if you see someone being tunnelled and/or camped on hook. You're just throwing your own game if you try to go for a save. And the killer also is throwing their own game if they do it on beginning. Heck, if the survivor getting tunnelled is good looper, worst case scenario is that you also ruin their game, too.
Is that annoying playstyle? Yes. Does it needed to be addressed/nerfed? No
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they shouldnt. the way the game is currently balanced youll have a high chance of loosing if you dont tunnel. more and more killers are just realizing this.
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I think that kinda mechanic killed survivor-survivor interaction in Deathgarden, which made them rush the objectives even more.
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if we were going to do something to ‘stop tunneling’ then I’d personally prefer something besides forced compliance by game mechanic or anti-tunneling perk buffs.
Give more INCENTIVES to not tunnel.
if ‘not tunneling’ isn’t the Killers choice but a punishment for trying to tunnel or a game mechanics forcing the inability to tunnel, then the Killer players are going to hate it.
like if an orb was RNG on to the map every time I hooked a different survivor, after another was unhooked (and only one orb per unhook), then when retrieving orb did something helpful for Killer…be that Gen regression, speed boost, or aura reading then the Killer would have Purpose and Reason to not tunnel immediately because they would benefit.
adjust to not make over-power and orbs have to be retrieved which wastes killer time and attention.
orbs on map has been done before, proposed orb functions are not new and survivors have been dealing with it already, gives Killer momentum for building pressure which could/should be equal or better then tunneling one person out. Just a very basic idea but you get the direction I’m going with. Not everything has to be a punishment, try rewarding the behavior you want to create or be used instead.
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no, that punishes killer for doing his objection. Like, if someone intentionally bites killer by constantly flashlighting, spamming loud actions, bodyblocking etc...? Killer hooks him-other survivors the bonuses and toxic person is the winning one. Amazing. You should reward killer for not tunneling, but punishing just means survivors will abuse it hard.
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Rewarding the killer for not tunneling isn't going to make them not tunnel. You need both the carrot and the stick. Without the stick, there's no reason to take the carrot.
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How about that?
1) The Video is recent and the streak is still going.
2) He is a casual gamer.
3) Pig is arguable one of the weakest killer.
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Yeah basically i dont give a poop about the points or ranks i just want em all dead.If you wish me not to tunnel make me feel powerful
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Reinstate decisive strike to it's full 5 seconds stun.
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it will. When better option appears, it replaces older worse option, even if the latter doesnt change at all. If dev give something that grants same amount of advantage as tunneling, without disrupting other people gameplay (and main problem of tunneling doesnt that it gives too much advantage to killer, but that it gives extremely negative experience to tunelled person, especially if he is lower skill then the killer), most people will use it.
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It won't. Tunneling makes the game easier. It may not be fun for the person on the receiving end, but it is the most efficient way to play the game.
The only way to have killers not tunnel via a reward system would be to have something that is equal to the value of permanent slowdown. There is no possible reward that could be equal to that value while also being balanced.
If you reward the killer for not tunneling with generator slowdown, survivors will quit en masse. But if you punish the killer for tunneling with faster gen progression, killers will quit en masse.
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Was this a video of you getting 500 wins in a row as killer? If not, I'd love to see you post some of your game play so that all of us with a "skill issue" can learn to be a god-level killer like you.
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I play each side about 50/50 and I know how much it sucks to get tunneled. I also know how difficult it is to get even one kill without tunneling against efficient, coordinated teams. so I understand why killers do it. Even 2-man SWF or good solo q teams can coordinate pretty effectively with the HUD info that survivors get now. Survivors have already gotten basekit tools to make tunneling much more difficult. Some players won't be happy unless they escape 95% of their matches and the killer has to get 12 hooks for a win. The devs are smart enough to understand that making these players happy means no more killer players.
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I think tunneling still needs to be addressed, but further basekit changes aren't the way to go. I think buffing DS in exchange for buffing some of the regression perks would go a long way to reducing the likelihood that a survivor will be tunneled for efficiency's sake.
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Gen timers were only extended though.
What actually happened is that survivors went from a full loadout of anti-camp/tunnel/slug stuff to genrush stuff, because BT became basekit, DS was butchered, and UB lost half its value due to no longer pairing with DS, freeing up three perk slots.
Tunnelling got a colossal buff, that's why the issue got worse.
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they just bring pop & pain res each game now
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Maybe it’s you.
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Throw in that the only Boon perk worth anything was thoroughly removed from the game and healing was severely weakened. Survivors literally have no reason to prioritize anything other than gens. Gens aren’t faster; survivors just aren’t ######### around with nonessential gameplay elements anymore.
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Yeah, but boons did allow them to heal a bit faster sometimes, so it's fair that it gets absolutely nuked from orbit. Can't have survivor perks do things that benefit the survivors!
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I got so sick of being tunneled, I went for from full vers to top... I mean killer
Playing dbd ahs never been so good for me
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This is an idea I've played around with. Even if it is just a way that Survivors who die early can signal and 'emote' to other Survivors where to go and what to do and when to run for it or whatever. DBD has a perfect opportunity to introduce a mechanic where Survivors who die very quickly still have a way to interact with the team at the very least. Maybe even give buffs or something.
There are plenty of things they could do. Being tunneled out early is one of the worst feelings in any game I've ever played unfortunately so doing anything to mitigate that feeling would be more than welcome.
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I remember before boons were a thing so many people were asking for survivors to receive like extra quests. I guess what they meant was they wanted survivors to do things that wasted time (passive slowdown for the killer basically) at no benefit to the survivors. Like rummaging through empty chests or something. They definitely didn’t want boons.
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We haven’t received a gen progression perk since gen times were extended. The gen perks survivors use now are years old.
That’s true. But I’ve played for years and noticed no changes in the frequency of tunneling. It’s always been a prevalent strategy—more so than camping or slugging. That’s my insight.
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like they always did, ignore it because it's just salty nonsense.
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The only new 'genrush perk' that really saw any traction, though, was Hyperfocus. Outside of that, it's just perks being freed up due to anti-tunnel/anti-camp/anti-slug getting gutted.
And even then, I'm pretty sure gen times are still considerably longer than they used to be.
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Let them waste their time doing that instead of generators? The system would only punish killers tunneling at five gens, not tunneling in general.
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survivors already rush objective. the old system of hooking would still be present in the game. it would just be called "slugging" with bleed out timers. so you could still "tunnel" slugs and "camp slugs" similar to current hook system with hook regression, tunneling off-hook and proxy camping hooks.
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This is something that merits discussion, actually. Something the player base, in general, seems to forget is that there are consequences to changes.
Self-care was nerfed before CoH got nuked from orbit, and then medkits got nerfed too. Boons didn't really work out as a concept since they were either too powerful (CoH) or too niche (Dark Theory).
There really is absolutely no reason anymore for Survivors to do anything other than gens, and it's as a result of those changes.
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The problem is how out of control 4 survivors can be, especially good ones. Look at why killers do it and fix that, instead of all these basekit skills.
Go try get 12 hooks at high mmr.
You can fix it technically by making DS have a 30 second stun.
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Same as they handle gen rush, gen tunneling etc. They should do nothing. If either side wants to be effective then players must have that option. As soon as you restrict players more this game will lose lot's of players.
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Okay, that doesn't change anything. Gens are still slower than they used to be. The only thing that video references that is new in any way is Hyperfocus.
Unless the survivors are using Hyperfocus, they are taking longer than they used to.
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I don't really think tunneling can be fixed unfortunately.
There are way too many random elements that go into a match of DBD that trying to fix it would end up restricting both sides.
It's unfortunate because it genuinely is a detriment to retaining new players being introduce to dbd by their friends.
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That's terrible idea. This will stomp solo teams even more. All killer will need to keep hook weak line.
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Everyone basically knows at this point that the MMR System values fast queue times far more than you accurately getting matched with people of your rank.
So just because killers are in matches where they are completely outclassed it doesnt mean that they "camped and tunneled" their way to that skill level. Most times its probably just that mmr didnt find a fitting killer for that level and just filled with whoever was queueing.
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They could make tunnelling outright impossible, by making the most recently-unhooked survivor lose collision for the killer until they do a conspicuous action, or until another survivor is hooked. This would mean they can't be hit by the killer, but also couldn't bodyblock or just sit on gens invincible.
However, if they want to make tunneling impossible, they would need to significantly buff killers as a whole. They'd need to make gens take much longer, or somehow make chases much shorter, neither of which survivors want.
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I agree. We already have the stick (Borrowed Time and anti-tunnel perks), but there's no carrot.
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The reasons are myriad and varied. Some will chalk it up to efficiency, others will make excuses by saying gens go too fast.
There is no singular reason why killers tunnel. To fix all of the reasons why they tunnel would make the game significantly worse. Gens go too fast? Slap those bad boys up to 120 seconds. Maps too big for killers without mobility? Shrink 'em. Loops are too strong? Make them weaker.
With just those 3 changes, killer gameplay is improved. Easy 4ks every round, but I guarantee you killers would still tunnel.
Survivors would have to play perfectly in order to escape, while even a baby killer could get a 4k with the minimum amount of effort.
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I would apply the ruin logic for all slowdown/regression gen perks: deactivation after the first survivor died.
It will not really punish tunneling itself, but killers will not have free win anymore in 3vs1 situation (e.g., pop and 3 remaining pain-res stacks, after one guy was tunneled out)
It may promote more endgame perks (noed, nwo) and people would still need to fight to get their escape in 3vs1, but at least, it will not kill the game after few minutes ; an heathy move overall, imo.
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What would a mechanic that makes it impossible to tunnel even LOOK like?
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There's literally no reward that could be given to a killer that is both balanced and equal to the pressure created by removing one survivor from the match.
4 Survivors. One in chase, three on gens. Hook one, now you have two on gens, one going for the save.
3 Survivors. One in chase, two on gens. Hook one, now you have one on a gen, one going for the save.
It takes 90 seconds to complete a gen solo, compared to the roughly 53 seconds it takes two people. By removing one survivor from the equation, you have permanent slowdown.
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I haven't thought of balancing it perfectly but here is one example. Hooking a different survivor than the previous one 4 times in a row causes all survivors to suffer a 25% action speed penalty. This effect deactivates once a survivor dies and only activates when 4 survivors are alive. This effect deactivates after 5 minutes (to prevent 3 gening).
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on2 -
You have to think about how these effects will interact with other perks. So, a basekit slowdown of 25% stacking with, say, Thana (Which has a max of 20%) that's now 45% slowdown just for not tunneling.
25% is equal to one survivor. While this would be an adequate incentive to not tunnel, it would take survivors far too long to do a generator. This wouldn't go down well with survivors.
This is why I say there is no reward that both incentivises killers to not tunnel and is balanced. Anything short of 25% slowdown is going to result in killers opting to tunnel because it's easier.
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The first thing to do is define tunneling and when it should be addressed.
By tunneling I mean the killer targeting a single survivor and eliminating them with the first 3 hooks of the game. Some people have posts talking about tunneling as if its the expectation that a killer needs to 8 hook to not be considered a tunneler. While I've been in games against survivors who will yell tunnel in the end game chat even if I was at 7 hooks before the first elimination, people who are looking for reasonable ways to make the game better are looking at the first.
Why is it an issue? Well, its not fun for anyone. Even if they win, the other 3 survivors basically sat on gens, while the one chased target either was great at chases, and this was exactly what he wanted, or outmatched and destroyed. If they don't win then you have a one sided match up where the killer slowly picks off the survivors who no longer have a realistic chance.
If something is not considered fun by the overall community, BHVR should address it. How they do it in a balanced way is the question.
I'd absolutely nuke tunneling if I could. Much like the anti-face camp model, if you don't want it in the game, don't address it with perks, just destroy it. If the killers first three hooks are against the same survivor, all other survivors get a 200% boost to gen speeds. This doesn't trigger if a survivor progresses a hook state via not being rescued or bleeding out on the ground.
If the killer hooks at least one other survivor though, the above disappears.
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I think most survivors want their escape rate to be close to 50/50. I just think 100% of survivors want different more fun mechanics to interact with. Dangling from a hook or achieving oneness with the ground as a slug are VERY unfun. If tunnelling is a crutch that killers currently need to achieve any level of success then lets nerf the ######### out of the effectiveness of tunnelling and then rebalance perks, maps, and killer powers until 50/50 escape and kill rate has returned. The game will be better for it.
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I have two ways I would handle tunneling. One way I’ve posted in the Feedbacks and Suggestions board a while back, while another way I thought of recently. I think when addressing anti-tunneling, killer buffs should coincide so you’re not removing an integral part in what allows a killer to win games, without giving anything in return. It’s important to denote that. I don’t recommend either of these 2 ideas unless killers as a whole gain some sort of buff to compensate.
Idea #1:
When a survivor gets unhooked, if the killer so chooses to chase that survivor again, down them and hook them before they hook another survivor first, that survivor will still remain in whatever hook stage they were previously, but just continue the timer from where they were previously.
For example: Killer chases Meg after she’s been unhooked 25 seconds into her first hook stage, downs her and hooks her again, she is still in first hook stage with 35 seconds before she hits second hook stage. She remains in that first hook stage until someone else gets hooked or the 60 seconds pass. If killer chooses to face camp, then that’s when the basekit 100% unhooking mechanic comes into play. It also doesn’t count as another hook event so the killer will still technically only have 1 hook if Meg was the only survivor that they hooked during the game.
To prevent survivors bodyblocking due to hook immunity, if after 10 seconds of being unhooked that survivor takes a protection hit, they automatically go to the next hook stage when they get hooked. I added a 10 second grace period to prevent killers from hitting them directly off hook when an injured teammate rescued them to bypass this mechanic, as 10 seconds is enough time for the unhooked survivor to run away from their teammate and not take a protection hit.
To add to this, a survivor that has been hooked twice in a row will have a base 15 seconds Endurance and Haste as opposed to the standard 10 seconds (of course unless Borrowed Time/Babysitter/etc was in play).
This mechanic could possibly be removed when one survivor has been sacrificed when the game is at a point where it gets more difficult to hook different survivors. Or you can just leave it on if you feel it wouldn’t get in the way.
tl;dr - hooking the same survivor multiple times doesn’t put them in the next hook stage, it only makes them continue the timer from the hook stage they left off on until the killer hooks another survivor. Unhooked survivors who bodyblock due to hook immunity from this mechanic will not get this effect. Survivors also gain 15s Endurance/Haste when they get unhooked after being hooked twice or more in a row.
Idea #2:
If a killer focuses down one survivor and makes it so that one survivor dies before they achieve four hook stages (meaning, they only have three hook stages from one survivor), then generators will take 50s to repair down from 90. This counts even if a survivor kills themselves on hook, since at that point it’s a 3v1 and it will make it more possible for a group of 3 survivors to repair all the gens despite their teammate bailing on them.
Now, if a survivor dies when one of four survivors has yet to be hooked during the trial, the generator timer will go down to 70s from 90s.
If the killer has hooked every survivor at least once and then kills a survivor, the timer remains at 90s.
I was possibly thinking of giving the killer a small buff if they hook every survivor at least once (something like making Grim Embrace basekit), and another bigger buff if they have all four survivors on death hook without killing anyone (maybe like permanent aura reading when outside of 32 meters). Something to really incentivize them to not tunnel and being good sports.
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A 25% action speed penalty is actually still weaker than a survivor dying, which is why I think it's balanced. It's a misconception that killing a survivor results in a 25% reduction in gen speeds. The killer is usually in chase with 1 survivor, so 3 survivors working on gens is usually the maximum. Killing 1 survivor results in 2 survivors working on gens, so in reality, killing a survivor actually results in a 33% gen speed reduction. Though, with 3 survivors, you usually have 1 survivor on a hook, 1 survivor unhooking and healing, and 1 survivor on a gen, so the actual gen speed is lower.
There's the question of why not tunnel if it's still stronger? The outcome of tunnelling is stronger but the method to achieve is weaker. Tunnelling is much harder than just chasing another survivor. Tunnelling requires you to stay near the hook and chase survivors into parts of the map with completed gens, uncleared pallets, and strong loops, which means you can't pressure gens and the chases are harder. You also can't change targets to someone who is easier to down.
Overall, I think the change I suggested is close to tunnelling a survivor out and killers would choose it over tunnelling since it's easier to just hook another person. This change won't end tunnelling but it will significantly reduce it.
You mentioned Thana but you need 4 survivors injured for that, which is extremely diffficult even for Plague and Legion, which is why they don't run the perk. I also mentioned a 5 minute limit to prevent the survivors from being 3 gened.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on2 -
Nothing really nothing will fix tunneling because there's too many times where killers should tunnel to provide pressure
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There are some problems with these ideas:
What do you do if you get a very immersed survivor squad that is also on comms and makes callouts where you are? Chances are that on a big map you would probably search your ass off for the last person while all the gens go.
What happens if you for example down a meg on RPD main hall, hook them there and then go to the left to check for gens while all survivors are either hiding or working on gens on the right? You go check all the gens on the left meanwhile the meg gets unhooked, healed up and has like 30 seconds on a gen in main hall when you come back and is alone there. Your only choices are to either ignore her or slugg her which means u either lose the gen right away or u lose it after she picked herself up with basekit unbreakable OR you go for her and give the last 3 survivors a huge buff.
For me at least in this situation the killer didnt really tunnel. They made an effort to find someone and just didnt and came back to the meg on a gen and need to stop it yet they would still get punished by that system. Tunneling at least for me would be if you get unhooked and the killer is immidiately glued to you again and doesnt make an effort to find someone else
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People have asked for a 'second objective' for a long time. But that objective apparently:
- Must be mandatory to escape. (Because we have chests already)
- Can't benefit survivors for doing it. (Tried this with boons)
- Can't be a detriment to the killer in any way (tried this with totems/hexes)
- Can't interact with the killer power (tried this with Singularity, Xeno)
So at this point, 'second objective' is just a different way of saying 'more gens'.
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the game is team game to some extent. for killer to tunnel 1 survivor out of the game, you can leave survivor on the hook for whooping 6 minutes. When all your hooks have been used, killer still ultimately needs to down you to kill you out of the game.
This makes it harder to tunnel people out of the game because when you find a weak link/bad survivor on the team, it is much easier to tunnel them out of the game to create early 3vs1. Often when this happens, killer can sometimes have like 3 gens remaining for entire 3vs1. The only bad part is that if your teammate suicides on hook, then you'll lose all hook-states however survivor might be less likely to self-suicide on hook. At that point, if your team suicide at 5 gens, your probably not suppose to win as survivor anyway. if you hook all 4 survivors, everyone dies.
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