The Trickster Feedback
Comments
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I posted about it lower down in this thread but the tldr is that the addons are getting way more duration recharge than they should based on how the math is done
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Hello. Trickster main since his release. I've witnessed all his highs and lows.
This update makes me incredibly sad. I spent almost 3 years with the character, and was comfortable with him never getting major changes. But out of nowhere, he gets a surprise update, that reduces a lot of what made him fun. The update was so bad, I didn't feel a need to purchase the new DLC, and I'm putting a pause on my Trickster P100 journey right at the finish line (Prestige 94.)
Trickster was always weird, since he had his own unique form of damage with his attacks, and a lot of other very unique mechanics not seen on any other killer (Recoil, An "Ultimate Ability," Throw Rate Growth, etc.) all of which were added very intentionally to discourage players from throwing at maximum speed all the time, but made it incredibly rewarding for those who COULD manage all those mechanics and hit their shots very quickly.
A lot of that has been taken away, making those previously very satisfying and fast downs impossible now.
As someone who played the very first iteration of Trickster, this current version feels worse than even that. He shoots too slow, has to hit too many times, and has very little time to follow-up his attacks before Survivors can break away, even if they are running out in the open for several seconds. This is a far cry from the killer I learned to enjoy, it's barely even comparable.
I find many of the changes completely unnecessary. Many of the new add-ons are impractical, and the ones that were updated to account for the new Main Event are less useful than ever, since the new Main Event is basically worthless! We already tried setting the Laceration meter at 8, and we already tried making the Laceration Decay 10 seconds, and it didn't work. I don't think we should be retreading that ground, while also making him throw knives at the slowest rate possible!
I honestly suggest going back to many of the previously established numbers and add-ons, and keeping only the mere quality-of-life buffs.
- Keep the changes to Trickster's Movement Speeds. being 4.6m/s and not slowing down while throwing makes him much more flexible in many tiles.
- Remove his Lullaby or considerably reduce the distance. / Reduce his Terror Radius back to the Original 24m. Either of these options works. The current Terror Radius + Lullaby makes it way too easy for survivors to run away from him before he has a chance to close the gap, making him more difficult on enclosed maps, where he was already very difficult.
- REVERT the changes made to Throw Rate, Laceration Meter, and Laceration Meter Decay. The old numbers were perfect, allowing you to very quickly down survivors who made mistakes, while also making it achievable for survivors with good pathing who know how to break line of sight to escape. Additionally, his ammo count was very manageable when it only required 6 Blades to injure, whereas the current number doesn't match very well at all.
- Set Main Event's throw rate back to the original 6kps, return it's duration to 10 Seconds, and remove the Combo Bonus system. In exchange, rework the activation slightly. I suggest making Main Event require 10 Consecutive Blade hits without missing to activate. This makes it more of a skill-oriented ability that can activate very frequently or infrequently depending on your experience with the character.
On top of all these Basekit changes, several add-ons of Trickster's still need reworks, reverts, and other new effects that would fill out his kit. So here are my personal suggestions.
- Death Throes Compilation - Reverted to previous effect.
- Iridescent Photocard - Maximum haste reduced to 5%, to match the reduced Laceration meter.
- Trick Blades - New condition: Blades only ricochet if they've travelled less than 12m.
- Fizz-Spin Soda, Ji-Woon's Autograph - Reverted to previous effects.
- Ripper Brace - New effect: Apply Hemorrhage status effect to Survivors injured by Blades
- On Target Single - Increases time before Laceration meter begins decaying by 5s (was 2s)
- Tequila Moonrock, Inferno Wires - Reverted to previous effects.
- Memento Blades - New effect: Decreases Blade hits required to activate Main Event by 2.
I feel like these changes would be enough to make the character feel good to play again, and would increase his current strength by a moderate amount. I really don't think he ever needed major changes, but even though I didn't like the update, I can still appreciate that there was some effort put in to try.
TL;DR, please consider going back on many of the changes. The old version was extremely fun and I feel very sad that the new version just isn't comparable. Thank you.
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Console Trickster Main here with beginner - intermediate hours, aside from no recoil, Trickster feels like Im playing underwater and his Main Event is underwhelming and not practical in most use case scenerios. The gutting of the skill ceiling and death throes/noReload playstyle (which was not easy to achieve prePTB as people complaining about it dont understand) has left Trickster soulless. A killer that is now encouraged to be a basic m1 killer who occasionally throws knives. Trickster being labeled Moderate is deceptive, and should be labeled Hard, and its being hard (as he is outside of lower mmr) that prevents an overpopulation of people abusing spamming on survivors, not nerfing him. This killer is too unique, with too much potential, to try to force him to be an easier basic killer for general use.
Taking the time to learn accuracy and make good shots actually benefits the survivor, because it means you arent going to spam on them for the easy down. Good tricksters try to be conservative and strategic with knives, and you arent even going to be hitting survivors with a bat when they are in range....giving them a chance to escape. Again because of the pride and rewards that were in place with Main Event prePTB. The heart and soul of Trickster was learning to be accurate, reaching that no reload with Death Throes that could take a year of dedicated practice, or 4k hours was a lot of Trickster's goal...Having rewards in place like this, for being accurate, is what will prevent people from making the matches unfun for survivors, not making Trickster easier/weaker. The changes overall, missed what was rewarding about playing Trickster and nerfed him because the dev team does not understand the best way to use his power. Which is understandable, but researching and asking the right Trickster Mains could have gone a long way.
But no recoil and 4.6 is more welcoming for new Tricksters I admit. I appreciate the no recoil as a console player, its just more healthy physically, but Im not willing to trade his nerfs for it. Ive already proven that you can play Trickster well enough on console with recoil, with practice. So I'd rather have a Trickster I can be proud to play and one that feels good to play.
-Laceration Meter needs to be reverted.
-Reverting Main Event or making it just a bit shorter and longer duration like the #revertTrickster google doc suggests makes it more viable against good survivors out of low mmr
-His throw rate is awful.
-Leave no recoil, and leave 4.6 if it makes sense- 4.6 helped map traversal but again with accuracy being the goal, it doesnt give an overpowering advantage at loops because you are looking to get downs with knives and to use the bat when its necessary or critical to do so.
-Revert the add-on changes to pre PTB or PTB, with a higher skill ceiling and a longer Main Event, add-on nerfs are unnecessary.
--Talk to Trickster mains on the lacerations leaderboard, they are not just thinking about the comp level or just PC players, but for Trickster mains in general, and even survivors.
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<What we want>
1.Revert old 4.4 trickster with deleted recoil.
2.Know main event is "Trash".
3.Don't force us to use a bat. We want to throw kinves when we play him.
You make playing him boring and you forced us to do camping more.
I wrote the reason at the bottom of this text.
<Reson: Your patch for Trickster>
(we: many trickster users)
*Buff
1. 4.4->4.6(walking speed)
-You think "4.6 speed" makes him ######### strong. But when he use knives, his speed is still slow(no changes). So it's meangless. Buff speed and nerf throwing knives, it sounds that you wanna me not to use throwing knives. Use a bat? Is he Legion? Is he Clown?
Please, you have to know walking speed is not important for him.
2. Delete recoil
-It's the only one good thing of his patch. I heard a lot of opinion of other killer users. Most of them said "I couldn't play him due to recoil.". But you know, when we throw knives, survivors move right and left a lot...So... actually, It's little meaning. It's still not easy to hit them with knives.
*Nerf
1. 12 knives heat(6+6)->16 knives heat(8+8)
-Sigh,,,
2. Laceration time 15s->10s
-Now, when we thorw knives, survivors go to structure(window, pallet, wall, building and the others). And laceration magically disappeared. So fast. we can't make them hurt.
3. Maximal throwing knives' speed nerf(1s: 4kinves->3kinves)/ Delete acceleration
-This speed is very peaceful for survivors. It's symbol of Peace. Nobody hurts. Seriously, you have to fix 4kinves or return acceleration. It's very hard to hit 8 knives with this speed. 3knives? Wow. To click left button of mouse is faster.
when I chased survivors around killer's house(old Trickster), I could hit them. But now I can't hit them there(New Trickster).
4. Total quantity nerf. (16/60->12/44->16/44)
-Do you think the new Trickster is much stronger than Nurse? Are you serious? 16/44?
Newbie killers forgive throwing knives due to lack of that. And they think "why I have to play him? Other 4.6 killer is much stronger! Bye Trickster!"
5. Main event nerf(speed, time)
-> I felt you want us to use main event mainly. But Main event is SO ######### SLOW AND SHORT. When we use main event, its loading time still very long. We can't kill anyone with this skill. I saw a lot of guys who couldn't make survivors hurt in main event time.(can't hit 8 knives)
6.addon changes
-> There are 5 addons we can use. Album(pruple), Trick knife(Purple), Shoes(yellow), Momento knife(brown)
Various playing disappeared completely. Other addons are trash, you know ^^. We can't use them. There is no fun. There is no good performance. He doesn't have anything.
Post edited by sadbill on1 -
Hi BHVR,
At this stage, please revert the Trickster but keep some of the QoL changes, like the 4.6 m/s movement speed changes and change to Iridescent Photocard.
The laceration decay time being at 10 seconds with 8 blade requirements with lacerations is not good, even with no recoil. If a survivor gains distance you cannot punish them with your ranged ability. All this does is encourage a playstyle where you have to run up to the survivor you're targeting, maybe even Bloodlusting them, then taking out your knives for effective gameplay. It's a very boring playstyle and took the fun away from Trickster.
Also, please revert or unbug Main Event. You reworked Death Throes to not reload automatically for you when we had a 6-knife Main Event, and we can no longer achieve that with addons. We also no longer throw at 4 blades per second. The Trickster does not feel good.
I'll take recoil back if it means we do not have to continue playing Trickster in this boring gameplay.
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It's awesome that you revisited this killer but when I played him I immediately noticed how slow and ineffective his power feels all of the sudden. The throw rate has been nerfed so significantly and paired with the laceration decay nerf it doesn't make sense to use his knives most of the time and you are forced to M1. The changes are all good except these two things that make him a lot weaker than he was before. Main event is useless now. I would even prefer old Trickster to this new version. This killer doesn't even feel like Trickster anymore, sadly. I was so looking forward to playing him again but the state he is in is very disheartening.
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His nerfs synergize so well that his buffs don't make a difference ( his buffs are automatically nerfed )
The Trickster shooting 3 knives per second is underwhelming since it takes 8 knives to injure resulting in him having to dedicate 3 seconds of perfect power usage to take a health state.
The 10-second decay would only make sense if he was a 6-knife Trickster resulting in him having to use hit all of his knives perfectly for 2 seconds to get a health state. 4.6m/s is neat but in certain loops is irrelevant since using his power requires him to be 3.86 m/s for a while so he could get the health state without having to use his bat. The more knives he has to hit to injure while shooting slower means, he needs to invest more time having LOS of the Survivor and being 3.86m/s for longer. This gives survivors a lot of distance even more when they vault a window or drop a pallet. Him vaulting the window/ breaking a pallet/ getting stunned is arguably 25%-40% of his decay timer if not more. Resulting in him losing his Laceration progress just before he catches up to the survivor. Rendering his power useless at high wall loops... As players would say if I wanted to play an M1 killer I would play Trapper.
Old 4.4 Trickster arguably was more threatening since he needed to have line of sight of the survivor for at least ~2 seconds to injure/ down because of his amped-up throw rate while this one needs a lot more than that.
PTB Trickster was fine the only things that needed to be changed were Photo Card and Death Throes Compilation.
Getting ME at 6 knives wasn't the issue nor was 4 knives per second base or 6 knives per second main event. The Iri add-ons were the only issues.
Soda may have looked Overpowered but wasn't. The issue with Soda was that it enabled the effect of Death Throes faster. On its own, it gave him Main Event faster but Main Eventing a healthy survivor was and still is risky since he shot 6 knives a second in it (on ptb) while a health state is 8 knives, if there are enough LOS blockers the survivors could use the speed boost from losing a health state to run around the corner, Trickster would get staggered for 3 seconds and by the time he catches up all his laceration is gone.
Not to mention he's the same walking speed in main event as before which is base walking speed with knives. (3.86m/s)
Every time Trickster ends Main Event he gets a 3-second stagger effect where he can't use his knives. Thus not getting value from it would make it so it didn't matter how fast you got if you didn't use it well. I will admit the decay timer makes Trickster players think about their ME usage more.
The skill expression of PTB Trickster was how effective is your Main Event. Could you manage to take 2 health states with it within such a short time period? PTB Trickster would shoot 6 knives per second for 5 seconds, which is 30 knives. With or without Soda add-on against a healthy survivor when you'd get Main Event you'd need to hit 9-16 out of 30 knives within 5 seconds while the survivor changes his movement speed twice. ( going from normal 4m/s to 6m/s for 1.8m/s when losing a health state and back to 4m/s again). All of that just to compensate for still having 44 knives but your knives being effectively weaker.
Current Trickster's Main Event shoots slower we don't know if it's a bug or not but it makes Main Event effect even weaker.
Current Trickster can have his power actively disrespected ( survivors can aggressively body block him because he can't do anything about it) since he doesn't shoot fast enough base and in ME, takes too many knives to take a health state all while still having 44 ammo.
Examples:
I've had to hit every single knife (18/20) to be able to down them. If Feng was healthy I wouldn't be able to down her. If it was more survivors I'd be powerless since I don't have enough knives to down them (44 knives=5 health states= 2.5 downs with perfect aim) and ME shoots so slow for a short period of time.
Old Trickster would've taken 3 health states if not down them both in the 2nd clip
I've tried to keep it short and sweet hopefully this helped
Post edited by endzej_ on12 -
set the throwing speed to 4 knives per second and lower the laceratio to 6 or 7 but leave the knife decay speed at 10 s
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I think one of my biggest disapointments is aside from one Iridescent add-on many have been made a lot worse, particular ones you can regularly use of lower rarity such as Fiz-Spin Soda.
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My feedback would be:
The speed at which he is going now 4.6 is fine, that IS better I gotta give credit where it's due BUT his throwrate nerf and his mainevent nerf make it so you don't even feel he is 4.6- miraculously he feels even slower now than before. And weaker. His mainevent to us mains is not a key point of his gameplay but the throw rate? that just kills him. Softly. Just not that soft. Actually you hit him with a baseball bat and... he can't get up.
He's on the floor now.
And people who don't main him can't see it because they have no idea what they are talking about. Or how to properly play him.
I had so many Tricksters dc today because they couldn't even get a down and I feel them because- same.
The fun part is you as the Trickster struggle beyond believe but the survivors, yes they actually do that, give up and end themselves on hook despite them winning because they confuse you for nurse.
And you are just standing there- flabbergasted. Because HOW????
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I didn't think it was that good even on the tester server.
Except for attack speed.
However, it was nerfed and applied.
I think these results are natural.
The current Trickster is too weak.
Here's what a trickster needs:
1. Return the laceration duration to 15 seconds
2. Increase the number of bullets to match the injury condition of 8 shots
3. Add-on reorganization
- Iridescent Photocard
Each dagger hit increases your movement speed by 1%. (up to 5%)
Duration lasts 10 seconds, updated each time it is hit.
(Also applies to ‘Main Event’ mode)
(All penalties deleted.. I think the activation conditions and duration alone are sufficient penalties.)
-Fizz-Spin Soda
Main Event Deactivation time reduced by 35%
- Ji-Woon's Autograph
Main Event Deactivation time reduced by 25%
I value variety in settings.
But I also don't want your efforts to go to waste.
There is a need to increase the performance of the dropped ‘Dagger Mode’ again.
There is a need to improve the performance of the ‘Main Event’ mode itself.
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a rough summary of my opinion in this video. takes 9 minutes and I mentioned only the things I thought would be the most critical. Missed a lot of other major points, but there's also the google doc of wacek and endzej_ linked below the video (also refering to it in the video itself)
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Hello, BVHR. I have at least a thousand hours played as Trickster (Prestige 100 and 30,000+ Lacerations) and I thought he was in a perfect place before the changes. This new update made the Trickster horrible to play, in my opinion. I loved his previous addons and base kit. They kinda reminded me of Warframe guns and mods but now the Trickster is just horrible to play.
The new no recoil feels unrewarding and the extra 2 laceration meter plus the 10 second laceration decay are abysmal. The buffed movement speed doesn't help at all, at times the survivor had turned a corner and their laceration had decayed before you could inflict injury. The current fire rate is fixed to 3 blades per second, unlike the old fire rate that increased each throw which you could also modify with Fizz-Spin Soda or Ji-Woon's Autograph. And the worst change was the Death Throes Compilation, that was the most skillful addon and it rewarded the Trickster for being good.
And the Main Event was special and not something you could use in every chase.
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Faster fire rate with reduced laceration meter would be awful to play against. I don't mind 8 blades to injure but he needs to throw faster to compensate. That's why so many people play Trickster is for that rapid fire gameplay which this update killed.
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Personally I feel like the entire update for Trickster should just be reverted.
Before this update I considered Trickster to be one of my chill killers. Someone I had considerable enjoyment with in most games that I would play to unwind or cheer up. It felt satisfying to be good with him and was all round enjoyable.
After this update I can't stomach more than one game. He feels clunky, slow, takes considerably less skill than before (now that recoil being gone means aiming is as easy as following the survivor's movements and holding the throw button) and is generally a hollow shell of everything he was before.
I have to wonder what exactly the point of this rework even was? Trickster felt fine as is. If the point was to improve his kill rates and make him more lethal then why are his chases even longer and slower now? Why remove the increasing throw rate and increase the knives required if you wanted him to get downs faster? If the point of the rework was to encourage more people to play him then why does he feel so clunky to the point that it turns a lot of people off? Even the removal of recoil was meant to encourage more console players to pick him up and after speaking to people on controller even they said he feels bad now.
All this rework did was gut an already fine killer and make everyone that played him want to quit and find a different killer/game and everyone that considered playing him turned away after a handful of games.
Like I said at the start, the whole thing should just be reverted. Take it all back. And if you really insist on making some changes to him then all he really needs is a minor QoL change to his movement speed to make him 115% a.k.a 4.6 m/s. That is the only part that feels good about this rework and you scarcely ever notice it under all the rest of the horrid changes.
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Hello BHVR,
I think a complete revert to how he was before, minus adding recoil back, is the best course of action. A little more in-depth overview:
- Removal of recoil
Only good change to come from all of this. Kind of ironic how recoil was removed to help players land blades in the same rework that made using blades irrelevant.
- Reduced throw rate
One of, if not the biggest change that ruined him. Before this rework I was the type to always use blades over basic attacks, even if it took a little longer, because throwing blades with both speed and accuracy was the most satisfying thing in-game. Now, downing with blades isn't even feasible in most cases.
- Movement speed increased to 4.6 m/s.
If reverting his movement speed back to 4.4 m/s is what it takes to preserve his identity as a long range killer, then so be it. I personally don't find being 115 super impactful in chase (since his throwing state movement speed was unchanged) or out of chase (the best map pressure comes from downing and hooking survivors, which was much easier before this rework).
- Throw Rate, Laceration Meter, and Laceration Meter Decay
I think you guys found the perfect balance for these numbers with old Trickster.
- Add-Ons
Trickster had one of the best range of add-ons in terms of diversity and viability. No one knows or cares about what a combo is. Old Death Throes was the most rewarding and skill-based play style he had. Iri Photocard can stay the same as it is now, or be given current Death Throe's effect.
In conclusion, #RevertTrickster. Thank you.
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Absolutely agree, I meant one or the other but I worded it badly lol
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For me, 4.6, 8 knives, no recoil, and a logical addon pass were all he needed to go from "you need to be a master to be a threat" to being better.
The throwspeed, the main event changes, everything else has made him miserable to play. Absolutely miserable.
The changes made it so that he can patrol gens better, which is cool I guess, but problematic tiles are more problematic thanks to the nerfed decay and throwspeed. If the goal is to make him Less Sexy Clown--an M1 killer with frustrating anti-loop--then you've done it. But he's not the trickster anymore.
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Here I am thinking this would be post saying Trickster is not working as intended and a hotfix would be coming out asap.
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*When I edited this post it disappeared, so I reposted it. The disappearance was temporary, but please refer to the new post below for my comment.
Post edited by JDecker on0 -
Someone mentioned hotfix. I think that would be good, cause he feels so frustrating to play right now. Revert (without recoil) or consider google doc changes. Pls BHVR address soon.
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For now, please revert to 4.4 Trickster.
Current version is too weak.
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Hello. I would like to say a few words about The Trickster. At the moment, the killer feels like he is in beta test. I have little experience playing for him, but the killer's power has become useless. There are good looping spots in many maps, and in many places it will be easier to give m1 a million times than to try to use the slower power of The Trickster correctly. Main event is broken, even the animation. I would also like to mention a moment- since the update with the Singularity, the voice lines of The Trickster is broken. During memento mori, he either doesn't say the first part or the second. The voice lines in his outfit "God of Desires" is also broken. I hope the killer will be fixed in the next updates. It is a pity that Trickster's rare red addons were destroyed. They have become useless.
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[{"insert":"Revert old Trickster!!\n"}]1
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Hello, I am number 1 on the Trickster leaderboard. What I felt while playing Trickster for about 3,000 hours It's similar to when it was first released. This patch weakened Trickster so much that he lost his talent. What I wanted was a special power buff, not a nerf I thought you knew what the problem was, but you didn't understand I don't want this patch If you're gonna do this, give it back
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Welcome to new trash killer. Nobody plays new trickster now! Add-on became trash also.
I think Bhvr hates Trickster :D!!
Trickster only became costume seller, not a killer.
It will be good to give up, when you got Daily Ritual "Play with Trickster, make 4 Laceration." If you are newbie trickster.
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No one loves the current trickster.
We need to announce a return to normalcy as soon as possible.
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Hi! I'm one of the rookie Trickster players who played him occasionally in Korean server. (so please pardon me for my poor choices of words and my grammatical mistakes)
Since I'm not his main, I can't give professional feedbacks like his mains. But I wanna share my experience as a baby Trickster player so I can give you a reference to make his power more new-player-friendly
First, 4.6 movement speed was very good when I roamed the map and looped the tile with m1 where hitting knives are very hard. It reduced the pressure from kicking genrator, seeking survivors and looping hard tile. I really appreciate this change. Thank you <3
Second, Removing the recoil actually helped me some, but there are still difficulites in playing him with controllers. Since his knives' landing spot changes by his left-right hand, and knives have a time in the air before they hit survivors. If survivors move left-right, it was still hard to hit survivors with knives when I played him with controllers. So, if you really want to make him controller friendly killer, could you combine knives' landing spot into the one in the middle of screen? or i think adding cross hair could be helpful for controller users too.
Third, increased laceration meter, decreased the time before it decays and slowed fire rate just make him much more difficult than before. Each changes had a fetal effect. And the fact that they all changed at once made me very frustated when I fist played him after patch. It feels like my bad performance got even worse than before although recoil has removed. Even sometimes using m2 even feels like a waste cause it has so small value against high risk. So I hope you revert or buff him quickly but one by one so we can find his new blanced spot.
Fourth, After playing him several times, I recognized playing him is not fun as before. The fun part of playing him that I felt was hitting survivors with knives quckly in a row in the short moment and stacking 1 shot through a small gap. These kind of plays were very hard and there were no many chances to do it but it gave me great satisfaction when I succeed. But after his laceration meter increased and fire rate slowed, there was less chance to do these play. And even I succeed, it didn't makes me feel catharsis like before. So I wish you adjust his laceration meter and fire rate in the first priority if you plan to buff him.
Fifth, Main event. Actually I'm not a very big fan of Main event(Sorry for ME enjoyers 😭). So I can't give you appropriate feedbacks about new ME sorry... Only feedback I can give about ME is there are too many add-ons about ME now. I wish there are more add-ons enhance his basic power.
For the last, this is why I hate ME: It is too strong in the open space (Especially when he camping survivors with it) and too weak if there is at least one structures nearby. It makes both players feel absurd who play Trickster and survivor who play aginst with him. I know his power has exactly same problem and ME is just enhanced version of it. But I wish ME's concept change into the way cover his weakness not strengthen his strenghts.
This is my example of change: After activate Main event Trickster got 5 special knives that can add 4 laceration(half of the maximum laceration) with 1 shot. These knives are can't be repeated and ME ends 15 seconds after activating.
And thank you for providing an opportunity to reflect the opinions of trickster users. I hope he'll change for the better by the experience of users who enjoying him!
Post edited by kokobop on5 -
With this patch, Trickster has lost his original charm. The killer who used to kill survivors with a knife now uses a melee weapon. The throwing speed of the knife is really slow. And his add-ons have become useless. 4.6 speed is not a buff for him. Roll back so I can play him. He says now he doesn't want to be a cheater. It's the worst.
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I do not have the experience with trickster as some of his dedicated mains do (refer to the changes suggested by Wacek and ENdZej_ as they have very insightful perspectives). I probably have only 100 hours on trickster. I cannot express how great trickster felt on the recent PTB. With 4.6 m/s movement speed, 4 knife/s throw rate, and 8 knives to damage, trickster felt extremely smooth, responsive, and rewarding to play. In my mind, the only parts that felt bad (and too powerful) were the free reload addon with the new Main Event requiring so few knives. Main Event no longer felt like a "Main Event" when you receive it so regularly. Before, it was rewarding to purposefully save main event for specific moments. Now, Main Event is largely useless/a detriment (due to a supposed bug making the thro rate extremely slow) and the downtime after it triggers. Main Event is more of a nuisance now rather than something you build up to. That being said, PTB trickster felt overall good besides the constant main event and addon reloading knives.
Now on the patch release, Trickster feels terrible to play. He feels extremely unrewarding and the game feels like it purposefully does not want me to use his power. With a static 3 knives/s throw rate, 8 knives-to-damage, AND 10 second laceration decay it feels terrible using his power. Especially since at 4.6 m/s simply M1 is stronger than his power in most situations. The current trickster is one of the worst feeling characters to play as---he feels sluggish and neutered. I think the team needs to focus on what they would like from a design perspective since all these tiny changes feel to be going in separate directions. Choose a movement speed and go from there. Either have:
- Movement speed: 4.6 m/s, ammo capacity: 60, damage: 8 knives, main event trigger: 30 knives, throw rate: 4 knives per second, laceration decay timer: 15 seconds, slow down while holding knives
- Movement speed: 4.4 m/s, ammo capacity: 44, damage: 6 knives, main event trigger: 25-30 knives, throw rate: 3 knives per second, laceration decay timer: 15 seconds, NO slow down while holding knives, old death throes addon basekit
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Bhvr should have returned the money they had made from the Trickster costume back to him.
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If you're going to weaken the trickster this much,
I would also like a refund.
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Hello, I never thought I would be this disgruntled enough by a change in DBD to make a post but here I am. I'm a relatively newer player to DBD. I only started playing last year around this time and have recently taken breaks here and there but still engage in a lot of DBD content. I've come to really love this game despite never playing anything like it before and the chapter I really grew to love was the All-Kill chapter in general. I main both characters from it and while I play mostly survivor, I love hopping onto killer to play my other main (he was the first killer I picked up despite knowing how difficult he'd be on controller).
Now I just want to ask, what did Trickster do to piss off the Entity?
I can't speak to the logistics since I never pay close attention to any of that. Though I will say that Main Event is kind of a joke now. It feels like more of a sideshow and I'd rather have the original 30 blade activation ME instead of what we have now. However enough people have pointed out the RevertTrickster doc that two Trickster mains wrote up. Personally, I can say that Trickster was better before the rework. I don't understand who this rework was for: current Trickster mains or potential Trickster mains? No one really asked for Trickster to be changed. I saw far more people cry for Twins, Myers, Freddy, etc.
You are clearly listening to the wrong people. Please understand Trickster is for a niche set of players. Mass appeal does NOT work. Listen to the people who main him, who appreciate his character both gameplay and lore-wise. It feels like you listen to those who don't care or outright hate Trickster which I feel is a lot of major content creators and the community at large.
Not to mention this rework being thrown into the Chucky PTB felt like a slap in the face. I don't mind Chucky at all and think it is really cool what you did with him (And Tiff) but it really brought to my attention that BHVR really cares more for license content. The contrast between Chucky and Trickster couldn't be more stark. I understand license = bigger revenue but seeing Chucky handled with so much care and attention while Trickster is handled so sloppily is not a great look.
Personally, I would have loved more QoL stuff for Trickster like more voice lines which are bugged currently or even a map or a rework of his perks (how come NONE of his perks or even add-ons cause the survivor to scream, isn't that his whole shtick?). His charm has been lost or maybe the team working on his gameplay and perks never truly had an understanding for his character and personality. It's a shame because looking as a new player to DBD it seemed like All-Kill had a lot of effort put into it in the beginning: from the animated teasers, to the phone calls where we can hear Yun-Jin and Trickster speak to each other (that no one seems to know about for some reason), to the behind the scenes stuff on the music and lore.
I don't get it. Where did that drive go? Even his map got scrapped and seems unlikely to be released ever. It also seems like you all forgot about the K-pop aspect of a K-POP chapter. Cosmetic-wise both Yun-Jin and Trickster have been lacking in K-pop inspired or Korean streetwear inspired clothes (even DBD mobile has more K-pop inspired fits than the core game). Like the Neon Nights collection and Yun-Jin's fit in that. How hard is it to reference Korean fashion? I heard parts of the Korean community are not happy with most of the the All-Kill duo's fashion. Look at the leading ladies and gentlemen in K-pop for inspiration. I know cosmetics is not the point of the post but I feel so frustrated over the handling of this chapter in general in the present day that I couldn't wait for another survey to dump my thoughts there. Anyways, the creativity and vision lacking in such simple things as this is disappointing especially seeing how the actual K-pop industry has a plethora of inspiration to draw from.
Consequently, I want to end with that I do appreciate the space in my life DBD has now taken up and I applaud the team for doing their best to improve the game constantly even when/if they miss the mark. But this rework? This was not it and made me really rethink my stance on BHVR as a company. It's unfortunate because even if Trickster is reverted it probably won't be for another year. I still want to play and enjoy him but I'm not sure and it makes me feel so sad honestly. Trickster isn't Demo or Bubba or Billy who the general playerbase loves, he is NICHE and changes, buffs, QoL, etc. should appeal to the people who play him and love to verse him. I have seen enough of this community to come to that conclusion because people who hate Trickster will never like him no matter what you do. Sorry for the long post and I highly doubt anyone will read from start to finish but it feels nice to give my thoughts in a cathartic way. Thank you.
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These updates to the Trickster have genuinely made him unfun to play as and has deterred me from playing the game any longer, until you increase his fire rate.
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All I've ever wanted is for the Trickster to go normal speed so I can wear a cool skin and hit stuff with a bat -- and this update gave me that, so I'm happy. For me, the character was unplayable before and now he's playable -- I understand why people who enjoyed throwing knives feel differently.
Also, as someone on controller, the knives feel a lot better, now. But I'm still personally happier with bat as the A option and knives as the B option, rather than the reverse.
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(WHILE EDITING MY COMMENT I ACCIDENTALLY PRESSED THE DELETE BUTTON )
His nerfs synergize so well that they automatically nerf the “BUFFS” he received, making them unnoticeable, lackluster…
The Trickster shooting 3 knives per second is underwhelming since it takes 8 knives to injure resulting in him having to dedicate 3 seconds of perfect power usage to take a health state.
The 10-second decay would only make sense if he was a 6-knife Trickster resulting in him having to hit all of his knives perfectly for 2 seconds to get a health state. 4.6m/s is neat but in certain loops is irrelevant since using his power requires him to be 3.86 m/s for a while so he could get the health state without having to use his bat. The more knives he has to hit to injure while shooting slower means, he needs to invest more time having LOS of the Survivor and being 3.86m/s for longer. This gives survivors a lot of distance even more when they vault a window or drop a pallet. Him vaulting the window/ breaking a pallet/ getting stunned is arguably 25%-40% of his decay timer if not more. Resulting in him losing his Laceration progress just before he catches up to the survivor. Rendering his power useless at high wall loops... As players would say if I wanted to play an M1 killer I would play Trapper.
Old 4.4 Trickster arguably was more threatening since he needed to have line of sight of the survivor for at least ~2 seconds to injure/down because of his amped-up throw rate while this one needs a lot more than that.
PTB Trickster was fine the only things that needed to be changed were Photo Card and Death Throes Compilation.
Getting ME at 6 knives wasn't the issue nor was 4 knives per second bas or 6 knives per second main event. The Iri add-ons were the only issues.
Soda may have looked Overpowered but wasn't. The issue with Soda was that it enabled the effect of Death Throes faster. On its own, it gave him Main Event faster but Main Eventing a healthy survivor was and still is risky since he shot 6 knives a second in it (on ptb) while a health state is 8 knives, if there are enough LOS blockers the survivors could use the speed boost from losing a health state to run around the corner, Trickster would get staggered for 3 seconds and by the time he catches up all his laceration is gone.
Not to mention he's the same walking speed in Main Event as before which is base walking speed with knives. (3.86m/s)
Every time Trickster ends Main Event he gets a 3-second stagger effect where he can't use his knives. Thus not getting value from it would make it so it didn't matter how fast you got if you didn't use it well. I will admit the decay timer makes Trickster players think about their ME usage more.
The skill expression of PTB Trickster was how effective is your Main Event. Could you manage to take 2 health states with it within such a short time period? PTB Trickster would shoot 6 knives per second for 5 seconds, which is 30 knives. With or without Soda add-on against a healthy survivor when you'd get Main Event you'd need to hit 9-16 out of 30 within a 5-second period while the survivor changes his movement speed twice. (going from normal 4m/s to 6m/s for 1.8m/s when losing a health state and back to 4m/s again).All of that just to compensate for still having 44 knives but your knives being effectively weaker.
Current Trickster's Main Event shoots slower we don't know if it's a bug or not but it makes Main Event effect even weaker.
Current Trickster can have his power actively disrespected (survivors can aggressively body-block him because he can't do anything about it) since he doesn't shoot fast enough base and in ME, takes too many knives to take a health state all while still having 44 ammo.
Examples:
I've had to hit every single knife to be able to down them. If Feng was healthy I wouldn't be able to down her. If it was more survivors I'd be powerless since I don't have enough knives to down them (44 Knives = 5 health states = 2.5 downs with 100% accuracy) and ME shoots so slow for a short period of time.
Old Trickster in this situation would've taken 3 health states AT LEAST.
Hopefully, the feedback helps in understanding the issues with Trickster
11 -
Revert or Refund
5 -
* I'm not good speaking English. When I edited my post, it disappeared, so I'm reposting it.
Trickster's greatest feature as a killer is that he can "rapidly shot projectiles good feel and comfortably".
I think most people who like this killer use it because they enjoy throwing knives lightly and good feel.
Therefore, rather than adjusting the game balance by reducing the fun of throwing knives lightly and good feel, should focus on that fun, while adjusting the game balance in other ways.
Specific proposals are listed below.
Movement of starting and ending knife throwing stance:
Currently: Start = 0.35s , End = 1.25s
-> Start = 0.2s, End = 0.7s
* This allows Trickster to quickly switch between various movements and knife throwing, making it a killer that feels very good to operate. Also, make it easier for him to catch up to looping survivors, because it will reduce the amount of time he spends slow moving while holding the knife.
* It might be interesting to implement an add-on that speeds up these movements.
Aiming:
Among gamepad users, those who are not good at aiming using a gamepad may give up on using Trickster.
As an option for such people, it might be good to have an aim assist function limited to gamepad.
Throw Rate:
Currently: 3/s
-> Increase to within 3.3/s to 3.6/s
Laceration Meter capacity:
Currently: 8 Hits
I feel like 8 hits is just right. (This value may be increased or decreased a little, but I'd like you to consider it based on 8 hits for now.)
Laceration Meter Decay System:
Currently: Decay delay = 10s , Decay rate = -0.5c/s . It takes 24 seconds to decrease from meter 7 to 0.
-> Rework: Once the decay delay time has elapsed and the meter begins to decrease, and then the meter has decreased by one division, the meter will stop decreasing until the decay delay time has elapsed again. Repeat this. The Decay delay should be set to a longer time when the meter is low, and a shorter time when the meter is near full. Also make the decay rate faster.
Example: Decay delay = 14 - MeterCharges (seconds) , Decay rate = -1.0c/s . It takes 77 seconds to decrease from meter 7 to 0. When the meter is 7 the decrease starts after 7 seconds, when the meter decreases to 6.0 the decrease stops for 8 seconds, when the meter decreases to 5.0 the decrease stops for 9 seconds...
* As a result, if the knife fails to hit the target for a while, the survivor's meter will immediately decrease by about one division, but it will not decrease significantly in a short period of time. Therefore, it will be easier to increase or decrease the meter near full during the chase, making it easier for both the Trickster and the survivors to enjoy a heated and thrilling chase.
Main Event:
-> As an additional feature, by press the Main Event activate key during a melee attack, the melee attack movement will be interrupted and the Main Event will be activated! (Like the Cancel Combo in Fighting Game, so he will be possible to perform a combo that activates the Main Event immediately after the melee attack hits! It would definitely be more fun to be able to do it.)
-> The "Score Event Combos" not only increases the duration of the Main Event, also increases the Throw Rate of the Main Event as a new feature!
Score Event Combos:
-> It's too difficult to understand how much the next Main Event will be strengthened by completing a combo, which is unkind, so make it easier to understand with the graphics of the ability icons.
Example: When achieve the "S Combo" and the next Main Event is strengthened to the maximum, "S" will be displayed on the ability icon.
Ultra Rare Add-on "Iridescent Photocard":
-> If the blade shatter by the very rare add-on "Edge of Revival Album" hits a survivor, it will regard "Blade hit (+1% Haste Effect)" instead of "Blade didn't hit (loses Haste Effect)".
* This will make the combination of add-ons more interesting and fun.
Ultra Rare Add-on "Death Throes Compilation":
Currently: The Auras of Survivors hit during Main Event are revealed to you for 6 seconds.
-> Rework: Each time you hit survivors with a knife during the Main Event, one of the following effects will occur randomly on that survivor:
1. The Auras of survivors are revealed to you for a certain time.
2. Inflicts Blindness state on survivors for a certain time.
3. Inflicts Exhausted state on survivors for a certain time.
4. Inflicts Hindered state on survivors for a certain time.
5. Inflicts Mangled state on survivors for a certain time.
6. Inflicts Haemorrhage state on survivors for a certain time.
7. Inflicts Oblivious state on survivors for a certain time.
8. Survivors will scream and be unable to vaulting windows and dropping pallets for the next 1 seconds.（Like The Doctor's Shock Therapy）
Thank you for reading!
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Just going to quote you, because I agree with everything you said, and you explain it much better than I can.
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The most fun part about Trickster was to throw knives so fast like a machine gun, but you took that away from him. Now he throws so slowly and Main Event feels lackluster and not worth even using most of time. His new combo addons have so liitle effects that are basically useless. Other than those, pretty great changes. IMO his throw rate needs to be reverted and laceration decay needs to be slower. For bonus point maybe also rework some of his addons.
6 -
Give me my money back!
3 -
Just make him like he used to includes his speed, he didn't need any changes
5 -
What do you guys think people are trying to do when they use buzz-phrases like "this isn't fun to go against"?
Every killer is supposed to be their own flavor of a challenging "trial." Please revert the Trickster changes completely minus the recoil or let your initial ptb alterations run the gauntlet on live for a time, but either way please stop listening to folks who only want every killer's kit to be an ez-cakewalk.
10 -
After playing Trickster some more, I think that this rework got a lot of things right. HOWEVER, the main glaring issue that Trickster has right now that is REALLY hurting him is his SLOW RATE OF FIRE on both his normal knives and Main Event, causing him to injure survivors much slower than before. I think if you were to increase his normal throw rate to 4 per second (making it so it takes only 2 seconds to take a health state with eight knives) and Main Event to 5 (not 6 since you get Main Event much more often now, otherwise it would be oppressive to survivors I feel), I think Trickster will feel much better as a killer. That's all he needs, is a small tweak/increase to his fire rate.
Otherwise, I think this rework is good. The buffs to his recoil, movement speed, and Main Event are all great, and even the increase to Laceration and decrease to decay allow for survivors more room to avoid Trickster's damage. But Trickster needs to be rewarded for constantly putting up pressure and I don't think this current update allows him to do that.
Please adjust. Thank you!
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After playing Trickster some more, I think that this rework got a lot of things right. HOWEVER, the main glaring issue that Trickster has right now that is REALLY hurting him is his slow rate of fire on both his normal knives and Main Event, causing him to injure survivors much slower than before. I think if you were to increase his normal throw rate to 4 per second (making it so it takes only 2 seconds to take a health state with eight knives) and Main Event to 5 (not 6 since you get Main Event much more often now, otherwise it would be oppressive to survivors I feel), I think Trickster will feel much better as a killer. There was no reason to nerf his base fire rate since the only OP aspect of the PTB was the infinite reload add-on. But now that that is gone, you went ahead and nerfed his fire rate for what reason? Please revert it back to 4 blades per second. That's all he needs, is a small tweak/increase to his fire rate.
Otherwise, I think this rework is good. The buffs to his recoil, movement speed, and Main Event are all great, and even the increase to Laceration and decrease to decay allow for survivors more room to avoid Trickster's damage. But Trickster needs to be rewarded for constantly putting up pressure and I don't think this current update allows him to do that.
Please adjust. Thank you!
Post edited by Capa on4 -
Firstly, the reduced fire rate feels downright sluggish, which removes all the fun from his character. One of the merits of playing Trickster was the satisfaction of being able to shoot rapidly, but the current update just makes him frustrating to play with now.
Secondly, the Laceration Meter decay is way too quick compared to the fire rate. Miss the survivor once while chasing and it feels like the meter is immediately back to zero, which prolongs the chase too long and it's practically impossible to get a 4K.
Thirdly, If he's back to throwing 8 knives to get a hit, his maximum knives should also be increased to 60 again. The current update requires players to reload too often.
I appreciate how the devs are trying to make the Trickster a decent killer, but this is not a way to go about it. Rendering his unique power nearly useless and buffing his movement speed instead? You're literally taking away his charm and making him more similar to other killers, making it pointless to play the Trickster.
IMO the PTB Trickster was just fine because he deserves a decent buff after being the killer with the lowest killing rate for nearly three years(apart from Nurse, and that's because she's the most difficult killer).
5 -
I don’t understand why Trickster still has a lullaby, when it takes so long to get through a health state. If a survivor is far away, they aren’t getting “rapid fire” 8 knives before they can react. His lullaby should be removed.
6 -
I have more to say...
I love this character. So Im still playing him. But every match is accepting loss and just practice in the hopes Trickster gets reverted, or play in a way that survivors complain about (though they will complain either way) to make up for his deficiencies. He is worse on console now, if you prefer to be mostly M2 killer, which was the pride of playing this character, it's just so punishing to try to perfect your aiming and practice. Laceration meter and throw rate, on top of main event being too often too short, is literally turning every match into feeling weak, slow, and more punishing for missing knives than before. Console already had enough to try and make up for, now this update added more problems. I'm trying to compensate with weak bandaid add-ons and with perks to mitigate the changes. But there is not enough perk slots or add on slots to make up for already existing deficiencies with console AND the update changes. Chases take longer when you are learning to be accurate, especially on console, and then on top of the new nerfs, its too much. I can't enjoy no recoil because everything else is so bad. I dont want to be a mostly M1 killer. Please don't force it on all Trickster players.
6 -
with all due respect as a trickster secondary. this is a awful change.
Without more knives to compensate i'm losing chases i would have won before. so this rework isn't a net buff.
Slower main event, Slower throw speed, faster movement speed sure but when his knives are out he's still destroyed by high walled loops.
Every change you've made is making it more PUNISHING to USE his power even if used correctly. It's a SHAME!
The only way i get use out of him is by stacking main event add ons but even then it's not much and i lose out on extra knvies and bouncey knives.
This change is awful. he was too powerful on PTB sure i agree but this is NOT the fix you think it is.
6 -
Bvhr tried standard him as ranged killer with huntress. since huntress has lullaby, they put one for him. I think lullaby in general are bad design because they discourage the player from using terror radius perks. It is just another mechanic to over-balance killers and restrict their gameplay choices.
3
