My thoughts on 'Tunneling' fixes....
You can't fix tunneling without removing the killer's agency/ability to eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to (ie - the game is going poorly, they need a come back, etc).
Granted, I personally think it is fine if the killer wants to remove someone at any given point in the game, too, as it is an elimination game and the killer has the agency to chase/hit/hook whoever they want at any given time.
All these changes I see just lead to scenarios where the killer would auto-lose without hampering/hindering survivor efficiency (the reason for permanently removing someone) - Where would the incentive be for them to keep playing?
Comments
-
I think it's naive to think that the majority of Killers tunnel because they "would auto-lose" without it.
Most Killers tunnel because it's easy, extremely effective and very difficult to counter without a coordinated team.
20 -
I never said that was the reason killers tunnel.
Thanks for your input.
8 -
"eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to (ie - the game is going poorly, they need a come back, etc)."
You are welcome for the input.
6 -
I said you cannot fix 'Tunneling' without nerfing their ability to 'ability to eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to.'
I did not say "Killers tunnel because of X."
It's not my fault you instantly went for the us vs them/low hanging fruit.
11 -
Hopefully they're focusing on when during a trial this is happening. A single surv who is the only one hooked three straight times with no gens done yet, that's a problem, and of course feels so bad. Unless they've been afk or are brand spanking new to the game, that should not happen. Matchmaking absolutely plays a part here too, but how to address it?
Direct tunneling after a gen or two is popped is more understandable to me, but there's just so many variables to how the match is going to consider. If this game is just about kills (and not hooks for instance) then taking someone out immediately to get it down to a 3 vs. 1 will always be the best option, and there's simply no fixing that.
2 -
The only way to remove tunneling is by removing incentive to tunnel. I highly doubt you can do that without completely reworking the game from scratch.
5 -
Yeah.
I highly doubt we will get anything that takes so many factors into consideration (ie game state, previous hooks, etc).
It would have to be something crazy, for sure, to match a permanent -25% to survivor efficiency.
2 -
Where a lot of the proposed fixes for tunnelling fall is that it results in a lose-lose for the Killer. That's to say they make it so the Survivors will benefit, no matter which Survivor the Killer targets. Punishing the Killer will not work and just push plyers away.
The "Borrowed Time" effect from being unhooked that was granted felt like the best thing for it at the time. However, strong anti-tunnel Perks such as "Decisive Strike" were nerfed in the wrong ways and Killers now just wait out the Endurance.
However, likewise it's questionable in many cases why a Survivor still decides to unhook under the Killer's nose in the first place, when it's not a mad dash to the Exit Gates. Of course a Killer would have a high probability of tunnelling then if it's handed to them on a plate. The Survivors should be punished under that level of stupidity.
If anythingbis to be done about tunnelling, it should be to incentivise the Killer. "Grim Embrace" is an example of this, which rewards spreading the hooks with a mid-trial "Corrupt Intervention". Granted, it's currently not a fantastic Perk, but it is a great way of giving the Killer a reason not to tunnel. Another Perk - "No Way Out" - also rewards the spread.
If tunnelling is to be countered, incentivising is better than punishing a Killer.
7 -
I do not believe my statement was us vs them. Could you elaborate? I do actively try to avoid that.
I view it is a clarification of why people tunnel. This is vitally important to the discussion you are trying to facilitate, as I'm sure you know. If people tunnel out of a necessity because the game is so imbalanced, then that's very different then for example, tunneling to mess with someone or tunneling because it's easy.
I think that's an important thing to state.
4 -
It would need to have something to do with re-balancing the 4v1 and 3v1.
The 4v1 is somewhat Survivor favored, though not as much as it has been in the past. The 3v1 is very Killer favored, which is one of the main draws of tunneling.
8 -
I'm interested to see what they do with Grim Embrace....I'm assuming it will be buffed....maybe they'll let it trigger 2x per match and/or increase the duration.
4 -
It’s hard because there’s no definitive right/wrong solution. What I’m saying is, it’s not and black & white issue in terms of the game rules/mechanics.
For example, if a survivor is targeted at 5 gens and the killer makes it their sole ambition to get rid of them (ignoring all other players, camping and chasing them straight off the hook, etc), I think we can all agree this is tunnelling? Let’s then say a system is implemented to deter this play style, that’s great on paper, but the game isn’t able to differentiate between genuine tunnelling or players simply strategising with this said “anti-tunelling” mechanic.
What I mean by this is, look at old BT/DS (pre-basekit BT & DS nerf). The very essence of these perks were to punish tunnelling killers and deter that play style, however, survivors soon found ways to weaponize these perks even when they weren’t being tunnelled (body blocking, forcing DS, etc.). So whilst the intention of these perks were good, they in themselves “solved” one problem but then created more. However, that’s not to say these perks shouldn’t of existed because there were two sides of the same coin: some survivors abused them to gain a competitive advantage, whilst others simply got value out of them because they were genuinely being tunnelled. It’s a very circular discussion with a lot of nuance involved.
3 -
I feel like ultimately a lot of survivors just don't want to play an elimination game, but DBD without elimination would be a rather boring game.
4 -
"If anythingbis to be done about tunnelling, it should be to incentivise the Killer. "Grim Embrace" is an example of this, which rewards spreading the hooks with a mid-trial "Corrupt Intervention". Granted, it's currently not a fantastic Perk, but it is a great way of giving the Killer a reason not to tunnel. Another Perk - "No Way Out" - also rewards the spread.
If tunnelling is to be countered, incentivising is better than punishing a Killer."
The problem is that incentives would only work if they would not be available if the Killer is tunneling. But this is not the case currently. In another thread someone said that Pain Resonance is a good Anti-Tunnel incentive, but this is not true if the Killer can tunnel out one person and still get the Scourge Hooks on other Survivors. If we look at Grim Embrace, it is the same. It is a really well-designed Perk (from the design perspective), but not really good. And even if they buff it to be strong, it would just end up oppressive if the Killer is tunneling, if they still get the benefit after they tunneled.
Basically, incentives would need to deactivate once a Survivor is dead or maybe hooked two times in a row. Because then the Killer has to decide if they want to tunnel and not use the incentives to not tunnel, or if they want to make use of the incentive, but cannot tunnel while doing so. Because currently, removing a Survivor from the game early is always the best thing to do for a Killer. Anything else is currently Bonus.
It will most likely be buffed, as I said, the general design is great. BUT - it has the potential to become a really dangerous Perk. A Mid- to Lategame-Perk helps out at a time where the Killer is already becoming stronger, since Killers usually get stronger during the match due to the removal of ressources and health states/hook states. (This is also one reason why Corrupt Intervention is popular, but Grim Embrace isnt...)
So I dont think that they really can increase the duration, if we assume that the game might be a 3v1 at this point, blocking the Gens for a long time can really win a game on its own.
3 -
4 survivors have to be weaker. In return 3 survivors have to be alot stronger, and even stronger the less survivors remaining. Thats when killers will play for 8 hooks before first kill, to keep the 4 survivors alive debuff 2/3 the game.
8 -
I said this before but the more you try to punish a killer for pretty much anything they do, the more they will be willing to double down and brute force through. I guarantee you 15 seconds DS stun would only lead to me tunneling more than I do now. Because the survivors would absolutely use this aggressively (understandably but still terrible) and force me to somehow get behind this brick wall. And when this wall is the great wall of China, then the only option is to break through by tunneling whoever was shortsighted enough to waste their DS that way.
I think, there need to be more incentives for a killer to chase someone other than the one, who just got unhooked. If a killer feels confident, that they can go for many hooks and perform about as well as if there were tunneling, then this should be a more attractive approach than it is now.
2 -
Think the game is just too easy to snowball, especially from the killer side so tunneling/camping is an answer for a lot of killer mains, because it works. This kills the fun factor for the other side because you technically can't do much of anything unless you're in a coordinated SWF.
Same goes for killer when 3 gens pop extremely early and you only have 1-2 hooks. Desperation hits hard. Some games just go way too fast for someone to even keep up.
It would be fine if everyone had a chance, a real chance at playing the game without gimmicks most of the time. Unfortunately that's not how the game is designed or will ever achieve a state of. So I don't believe ultimately survivors don't want to play an elimination game, I feel players all around (survivor and killer) just want better balance in said elimination game.
3 -
This is actually a good idea but it would just boil down to making survivor feel more sluggish and/or punish a killer for getting a kill. Also it’s still possible to kill a survivor without tunneling before you reach 8 hooks. The only way to kill tunneling would be to make Pain Res/BBQ (you’d have to disable it for Nurse, Blight, and mobility killers in general) and 5-second DS basekit, but that wouldn’t fly well with the community.
3 -
This is a stupid quote: but Rewarding for getting a kill is why killers tunnel
To make killer not tunneling, you have to reward for not tunneling, while at the same time punish for doing so, and still give survivors 40% chance to win.
I saw people saying if a survivor get hooked once, get 33% debuff then 66% if hooked twice. They didnt think the problem on survivors side if killer manage multiple hooks early, even without debuff, its already no chance for survivors to win.
No, that idea doesnt fix the fact survivors would rush Gen even harder before they get their 33% debuff. Its either 3 Gens first chase, or guaranteed lose
The game isnt about finding a way so killers dont tunnel, you still need to keep that 40% chance to win for survivors.
Killers do less than 6 hooks for 3 kills is the reason the game balanced around killers making 6 hooks.
1 -
They should just buff DS back to 5 seconds or more and be done with it. Maybe even throw in hiding scratch marks / blood / grunts of pain for like 5-10 seconds on top of it after the DS happens.
In a lot of cases it's basically the only way you even get a chance to buy your team some time before you die and with the current pain res + pop meta your team might have to effectively complete ~7+ generators which is insane to think about when you realize you are supposed to survive long enough for that to happen when you are getting tunneled at 5 gens by a lethal pursuer Nurse or something
Off the record is too easily bypassed and a lot of killers like Huntress / Pyramid head / etc can basically burn it without any real penalty if they are proxy camping you on top of tunneling you
4 -
That would be my thinking too. Improve the benefits by spreading the hooks.
0 -
Unfortunately, that is the case some Killers will continue to tunnel throughout because it's the simplest way to win. Sure, as they face tougher MMR Survivors they'll quickly find they are completely outmatched, but that doesn't help.
The difference with incentivising over nerfing tunnelling is that at least there's a carrot dangling to encourage improving their game and getting extra for it, rather than further creating problematic scenarios where Killer mains will simplt leave because of the continuous pushing. Or it will encourage even less fun plays such as slugging.
In most cases, the player either adapts or leaves to nerfs. Incentivising at least offers a fresh alternative. Getting BP bonuses or extra Shards from time to time for splitting hooks and prolonging how long Survivors are in game may have a more positive effect and encourage Killers to improve their playstyle or simply have fun, rather than stick to simplistic tactics.
0 -
You can't fix tunneling without removing the killer's agency/ability to eliminate someone from the game when they NEED to (ie - the game is going poorly, they need a come back, etc).Where would the incentive be for them to keep playing?Where is the survivors incentive to keep playing when a survivor is eliminated and there are still 4 gens to go?
Yes, DbD is an elimination game. If you define tunneling as any attempt to target a specific player its going to be impossible to fix. I'd like a system that makes it much harder for a killer to target a survivor from the very beginning of the game. If the killer can get at least one other survivor on the hook, no problem. But games where one survivor is eliminated very early are not really fun games to be in.
3 -
i'd love "blatant", ruthless tunnelling to be fixed and killers to be balanced around kill rates without that.
3 -
If survivors got a gen speed repair buff each time a survivor was eliminated it would punish tunneling.
If survivors also got a gen speed repair debuff each time a generator was completed and, as the second part, a separate survivor had been hooked it would reward spreading hooks around and make the game more manageable for Killers.
No idea how large the buff or debuff would need to be but it would rework how matches work.
Incentives can work (eg BBQ when it increased BP, Ruin when it was at 200% regression and required survivors to be chased off to get value, the old Emblem system when there wasn't MMR and, if you camped from the get go you'd never get enough hooks to reach Iri One, etc) but many of the changes made by BHVR have indirectly buffed tunneling by removing incentives to not tunnel.
In my opinion, Incentives to not tunnel need to be brought back.
2 -
Never mind I'm tired of getting into dumb arguments on here, deleting this post
0 -
I've only been playing a month. I suck at evading and I am an easy target. Took me a lil bit to figure out what "tunneling" is.
Its certainly frustrating sometimes but a killer gots to kill lol.
I literally got "tunneled" while mid writing this lol. Sometimes its just bad teams. Survivor unhooks me when they get chased by killer, follows the wounded, poor evading animal... me lol Or survivor evades killer, into me.
Just give the survivor a free item or more bloodpoints for feeding entity quickly. Probably with a cooldown for it won't be abused. Something that will apply for future game rather than current.
0
