Are SWF a problem or is it all an illusion?
Comments
-
You haven't seen me after finding a new hitbox they messed up. I start speaking in tongues and there is definitely a bit of hate. Mostly self hatred because I keep playing Billy even when the game seems to not approve in the slightest. 😜
0 -
It's funny, you'll have the same terminal forum posters complaining about Soloq balance as to why certain Survivor perks/items shouldn't be nerfed and why certain Killers/Killer perks need gutted but here they are saying good SWF are just as strong without coms, ultimately meaning Soloq just boils down to a "get good" issues. Sounds like Soloq Survivors need to learn from their mistakes by their logic in which "think of the Soloqs" can no longer be used as a shield for balance discussion.
My two cents: there's nothing ultimately wrong with SWF at this point, it's just the ability to stack the strongest things on four Survivors when they match against some unsuspecting Killer (which is the same as Giga Blight or Nurse matching against 4 random Survivors trying to complete Tome challenges). Identify and fix the egregious peaks of both sides and we can actually move forward for once.
3 -
Saying that this is due to communication is wrong. It is because an SWF can filter out bad players. The game is a 4v1, so you have to rely on 3 other players as Survivor. And it is more likely that you can rely on the other players, when you play in an SWF with them (at least if all of them are decent).
You can put the same good players together with and without comms and you would have almost the same results. And you can also put the same 4 bad players together with and without comms and also would have the same results.
Comms dont suddenly make bad players good. There are certain areas which make Comms really useful, you name a few. However, a good player would not really need those in the first place. E.g. if I run towards a teammate with an EMP, if they are good, they dont need me saying that they should use it while I am nearby so that I get rid of the Pod.
And while Comms make it possible that I can a bad player this, who might then realize that it would be a good play, I think the impact of comms is really not as big as people like to claim it to be.
(E.g. I play only in a 2 man-SWF. Sometimes a friend of my SWF-Mate joins, they are a streamer and so they are not on Comms with us. However, this person is a really good player, so we win more games with simply him being around in our games, even if we dont communicate)
4 -
Can you link your source for that?
The only stats on swf survival rate that I have seen were released in 2019, so kinda old.
But back then the difference was only about 8% between a full 4man and solo, and even lower for Trios and Duos.
2 -
Both. It is a problem, but players often see it even when it's not there.
SWF have the inherent advantage of being willing to coordinate, and the facility to voice chat helps. But sometimes solo survivors with decent gamesense and a lucky pair up of likeminded players can perform almost the same. So yes it's a balance problem, but it's a little overblown as often killers simply accuse well-coordinated teams of being SWF.
It can't really be fixed, because it's not a problem of game design, it's an inequality of player attitudes and behaviours, and SWF isn't synonymous with coordination, solos can, rarely, emulate it to a degree, and not all SWFs perform with that level of coordination.
Adding voice chat won't make random solo survivors suddenly willing to coordinate, and penalising SWF will unfairly hinder uncoordinated friend groups.
Best you can do is provide info to survivors that is comparable but also superfluous to voice chat.
1 -
SWF is a problem. Think about it why else is Behaviour trying to close the gap between solo and SWF survivors?
2 -
This comment should be at the top of the chain. You're one hundred percent, a thousand percent correct.
1 -
And why would a majority of Killers dodge SWF. Do tell me because I believe you know the answer as to why they don't want to deal with them.
3 -
The problem is not Swf by itself, but the potential it can be achieved by 4 coordinated survivors, which is rarely achieved in soloQ.
There is no simple solution to Swf power. I just wish that instead of buffing survivors or nerfing high tier killers, they buff SoloQ info (maybe basekit Bond and Kindred, perks in lobby, etc) and then buff low tier killers.
Trying to lower the power of SWF can harm people who play casually with friends and are not interested in sweating
1 -
I mean their existence makes it harder to balance killers relative to survivors as a whole, but overall they bring a vast number of players who we'd lose if SWFing wasn't an option.
As for the balancing issues, it's a far better idea to try and raise solo queue up closer to SWFs, than to punish people for playing with friends. There is only so much BHVR can do, however, and even with more tools, solos will never be as strong as SWFs, not even close. It will forever be an issue when it comes to balancing, but it will just have to continue to be so.
2 -
I think that’s just a Billy main exclusive.. you can’t main Billy without having a little bit of self hatred for what you’re doing to yourself..
1 -
Because they love to stomp solo players. They will want to do that every game, simple.
2 -
It's probably a problem. It has been 7 years and they still don't show who queued as SWF in the post game lobby. Why hide it if it's not a problem?
4 -
it's a problem that we and the dev can't do anything about.
0 -
Because they probably see all the toxicity and blame that gets thrown around.
You lost to a team? Must've been a 4-man meta godsquad SWF at top mmr.
1 -
The link to the stats goes to the homepage now, but here's a dev talking about it from last year. It's actually "up to 15%", not average of 15% as the person you quoted is claiming. Peanits says most swf escape rates are on par with solo so doesn't seem to have changed much since those 2019 stats. @C3Tooth did the math for me during a similar conversation and I believe if the average survivor escape rate is 39% (per the devs post 6.1 update stats) then the average solo escape rate would be around 32%.
1 -
SWF is just a different level; talking about players who aren't new or just terrible at the game, rather players that know even the basics of their perks and maps. Just because you're playing and chilling with your friends doesn't mean you aren't capable of playing well, or that the killer isn't sweating for that down.
0 -
AvenFallen already said it but its pretty much my take as well.
TOO MANY killer players act like they did nothing wrong in a match. They made 0 mistakes. They'll blame SWF, perks, items, luck..anything really to avoid taking blame. When they are the reason the match went the way it did. There are outliers of course but 90% of the time a killer has called me an SWF (a guy who solo ques) or implied my team was an SWF, was really just the player making excuses for themselves.
Players like that will either never get better or get better at an incredibly slow pace, compared to if they swallowed their pride and accepted their humbling of ego.
The chances you go against a full sweat, on comms, coordinated and good SWF are very low. Most people are solo or playing w/ 1-2 friends. So no, they aren't really a problem IMO.
5 -
This.
For some players, it is far easier to blame the "Depip Squad 4 man Rank 1 SWF group" than to understand they could've done something different during the trial.
3 -
I don't believe SWF itself is a problem, but I think SWF helps highlight the problem.
Solid solo q players can absolutely destroy the killer in the same way SWF can, but due to matchmaking it's much rarer to see good solo teams. SWF players can pick who they play with meaning there's a much higher chance of having all 4 players be good.
4 -
Thank you.
So the difference between solo and swf is dependent on the skill of the group and the number of players in the group?
Good to know.
0 -
Because it's a bit more nuanced than "solo bad". If you read most of the solo queue complaints, they boil down to bad matchmaking or teammates disconnecting early. That's not a power level complaint. They've released relative escape rate numbers. They're working to bridge an 8% gap on average, not this massive power spike many killers think SWF represents.
1 -
As an aside, I would like to see the "real" K/E ratio for Solo vs SWF INCLUDING DC's.
Whether we like it or not, they are a real part of the game and I think one of the less spoken of benefits of SWF is less DC's.
3 -
Basically. I'm not the person you were discussing the topic with btw, I just interjected because I had the info you requested.
0 -
Having some recent official stats would be nice to establish whether swf is an issue or not, otherwise we’re just arguing past each other at this point.
I keep seeing comments that Swf don’t make up a huge chunk of the population and the escape rates don’t vary that much from Solo Queue.
That would mean if the overall Survivor escape rate is in a satisfactory spot/close to satisfactory currently, either:
1) Swf escape rate is high enough to cover the low Solo Queue Escape rate
2) Swf escape rate is slightly higher, but there are more people playing swf than the community thinks, which also covers the solo queue low escape rate
3) Swf escape rate and percentage is insignificant in boosting up overall escape rate, Solo Queue despite the experience complaints has a decent escape rate.
There cannot be a situation whereby Solo Queue has low escape rate and Swf does not have substantial numbers to bring up the escape rate, devs would have pushed for a 6.1.0 for Survivors if that was the case considering Survivors make up the larger portion of the playerbase
So either SWF actually matters in bringing up the kill rate or Solo Queue is actually in a decent spot, but all the Solo Queue experiences of teammates suiciding on hook or doing chests paint a different picture.
Since there’s no recent numbers to rely on, this is the conclusion I can come up with.
0 -
Depends. A little communication with a little map knowledge and the killer loses all gen pressure, they have to commit to every chase because if they don't, the survivors heal in a few seconds
4 random folks in a swf learning the game are almost worse than solo
4 folks with a basic understanding of most maps will dunk on most killers. Unless they play toxic and force the survivors to an early disadvantage or easy 3 gen
0 -
e: turns out I was misremembering! See my next post (mods could delete this one if they wanted, I don't see a way for me to do it).
0 -
Ah okay, so I was wrong, it wasn't an average 15%, it was up to 15%. I stand corrected!
0 -
It's all good. If you look at the post Peanits was replying to, it was someone else thinking it was an average escape of 15% - that info gets passed around alot, so it's not just you.
1 -
SWFs themselves aren't a problem, but when they're using 3rd-party means for comms for a competitive advantage are- The game is designed with survivors having as little info as possible which is why in-game voice chat still doesn't exist.
0
